Advanced Lighting Spectrums for T5 Floro and LED

npcghost said:

Whew. Just went through all 8 pages. Lots of good info in here. THANKYOU

I will be doing my first dresser grow soon. I plan on going the CFL route. but id REALLY LIKE to throw in an LED sometime, even if I just use it in addition to my cfls during flowering.

would an LED UFO with all 660nm be a good choice? Been looking into either the 90w or 135w ufo.

also, if you could check this out and tell me what you think I would really appreciate it. Thinking of throwing a bid or two on it if it doesnt get too high.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-300w-LED-Grow-Light-8-Band-Lamp-For-Flower-Hot-Sale-Hydroponic-System-/261069457252?pt=UK_HomeGarden_Garden_PlantsSeedsBulbs_JN&hash=item3cc8f3c764


or maybe this UFO?? vvv the link below

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-TRIBAND...999?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c167124af

Click to expand...

Htg gets their leds from cidly. They make a 45 x 3 watt ufo. For $145 with shipping. I got my apollo 8 led from there.

http://www.cidly.com/html/en/led-lights-1117-detail.html

Check out these ufos. I grabbed 4 of them for my veg. 90 watt (70 )1 watt epistar and bridgelux chips. $50 each plus shipping. It cost me $313 for 4 ufo's.


http://www.eshinesystems.com/grow/2g-90w-led-grow-light.html

Go to store link at top of page for prices

npcghost said:

Whew. Just went through all 8 pages. Lots of good info in here. THANKYOU

I will be doing my first dresser grow soon. I plan on going the CFL route. but id REALLY LIKE to throw in an LED sometime, even if I just use it in addition to my cfls during flowering.

would an LED UFO with all 660nm be a good choice? Been looking into either the 90w or 135w ufo.

also, if you could check this out and tell me what you think I would really appreciate it. Thinking of throwing a bid or two on it if it doesnt get too high.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-300w-LED-Grow-Light-8-Band-Lamp-For-Flower-Hot-Sale-Hydroponic-System-/261069457252?pt=UK_HomeGarden_Garden_PlantsSeedsBulbs_JN&hash=item3cc8f3c764


or maybe this UFO?? vvv the link below

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-TRIBAND...999?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c167124af

Click to expand...

It really bothers me when companies advertise their lights as "the best" and then do not back it up with a spectral output graph of the intensities of each wavelength used.

The nice thing about using multiple point colored light sources(different fixtures with different wavelengths) is that you can raise and lower each one to get the best mixture that your plants respond best to.

This could be compared to using a dimmer for each wavelength on an LED panel for instance allowing full control of the intensity of each wavelength. Much cheaper to raise and lower light using chains or pulleys than to install dimmers on expensive ass LEDs and what not.

Both of the companies you mentioned tell you the wavelengths they use in their products, but fail to describe the proportions (number of each color) or come up with an SPD graph.

I think it's funny when business owners are afraid of "giving away" their secrets when in reality their products don't work as good as they could because no one has been able to tell them what they are doing wrong with their "spectrum recipe."

I'm not one to say what is the "exact" right blend of color, because I know it varies from plant to plant, species to species, and the needs of each type will demand that you work with your strain/variety to figure out the proper blend. I don't think any single manufacturer is going to be able to answer to your needs.

This is what I believe to cause such heated debates about the effectiveness of LEDs or T5's etc. in general. When someone has a "bad experience" they get all hyped up that it's the light's fault or nutes fault etc. when really it's just the fact that they haven't worked with their strain long enough to know what she wants.

I would recommend you get as much info about products before buying into their advertisements. At least have them send you a photo of the "color of light" that their fixtures put out. If they are not going to release their product information then they should at least send you a photo of the light on while pointed at a white surface or something.

Just my 2 sense.

^^^^^^^^BTW if you are going to get a UFO with all 660nm or a blend of 630nm/660nm reds and NO blues, I would recommend getting 2 of them and put one on each side of a MH or HPS or equivalent just so you can balance the color out equally instead of just having 1 red fixture and 1 white fixture. Instead of a HPS or MH you could use a single 100w 100 chip point source Cool White LED light. Then you can raise and lower each light and get your ideal color spectrum blend. If you have no pure blue light sources, I've been told that the COOL WHITE high powered LEDs will blend better with the PURE RED UFO's since there is more blue in the cool white leds.

There are so many ways you can change your spectrum. Try to use what you have rather than buy more crap first. That's always nice.

hyroot said:

Htg gets their leds from cidly. They make a 45 x 3 watt ufo. For $145 with shipping. I got my apollo 8 led from there.

http://www.cidly.com/html/en/led-lights-1117-detail.html

Check out these ufos. I grabbed 4 of them for my veg. 90 watt (70 )1 watt epistar and bridgelux chips. $50 each plus shipping. It cost me $313 for 4 ufo's.


http://www.eshinesystems.com/grow/2g-90w-led-grow-light.html

Go to store link at top of page for prices

Click to expand...

Nice find, are you combining them with T5's? What's your plan so far?

If you do, you're going to find that you gotta keep the T5's a lot closer than the LEDs. I find it easier to blend single point light sources with other single point light sources.

Low power LEDs with T5's etc.

90w seems definitely low powered enough to do the trick.

Notice how these 2 companies actually tell you the emitter proportions and color ratios. I would trust one of these places over the other places mentioned.

Yeah im using both. I know about the distance. Just like when I had my 1000 w and t5 going. If the led out performs the t5 with the right bulbs. I will get more led. I plan on getting one more apollo 8. I just ordered the ufo's. So when they get here im replacing the t5s in veg.. I just want a lower electric bill. 280 watts of ufos should cover same as 648 watts of t5. 2 6 bulbs. Ill probably throw the t5s in flower for now.

Ok, this one looks better I think

red+blue LED UFO. 8:1 R:B ratio
red 630nm, blue 460nm

I think its only 1w chips tho. Still a good UFO?
I wish I saw one of these in 3w under 200 bucks. but I dont think thats gonna happen?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-90-W-90...362?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab518f80a



This one actually I think is the best ive seen for the price. 147w, with 3w diodes

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-HIGH-P...364?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a423015c

Fonzarelli said:

My Sativa dominant strains do not finish under red heavy spectrums either. What was your spectrum before, and what is it now. It also could be the lack of light intensity.

My Lemon Skunk did extremely well under a blue/red spectrum ratio of 1:1. Have you tried the 660nm UVL's yet along side your Redsuns? I found those to be a perfect match for Sativa's along with equal blue light. I've never had such fruity pebble like buds up to this point before.

I find it hard to believe how well the Sativa's do under a blue heavy light spectrum through flowering. My Blueberry Indica seems to be able to handle blue spectrums as well and they finish with a nice blue color which I find quite interesting. I've never been able to get my Blueberry strain to finish blue until now.

It's weird how the Blueberry being Indica dominant can finish under the blue heavy spectrum while my Bubblegum and Sour D do not finish at all. My Sour D just finished with buds 1/4 the size of normal under the same light conditions as the Lemon Skunk and Blueberry. This shit is sure a mystery.

I will take some photos of my finished Blueberry buds. They are real purty.

Click to expand...

WAS

3 Red Suns + 1 660 + 2 CWs + 2 Florasuns

NOW

Replaced one CW with ATI Special Blue Actinic (3 days ago) - have have much of an effect. Ah, what the hell will do it this morning, in hopes of more trics. SEEMS like I have more trics

Fonzarelli said:

Nice find, are you combining them with T5's? What's your plan so far?

If you do, you're going to find that you gotta keep the T5's a lot closer than the LEDs. I find it easier to blend single point light sources with other single point light sources.

Low power LEDs with T5's etc.

90w seems definitely low powered enough to do the trick.

Notice how these 2 companies actually tell you the emitter proportions and color ratios. I would trust one of these places over the other places mentioned.

Click to expand...

>
After my 3 clones have not yet produced new leafs (and I know it takes awhile when taken in mid flower) I removed the 2 @ 300w CFL equivalent bulbs over the weekend. Replaced with 2 @ 43 watt 5600s.

I 'think' 1 watt LEDs are probably best suited for veg/clones. I would be surprised if any of the 90w Chinese UFOs are more than 70watts, but that's ok. There are several threads showing how good ~ 60 watt leds can be, but those are ~ 3-5watts.

Multi-lighting is another reason not to use more than a 4 bulb T5 fixture. I would love to drop 2 reptile bulbs in between and run them for ~ 30 minutes after lights out.

I flipped to 12/12 today. I decided to go with a 250w HPS in place of the 250 6.4K MH to push the red side of the spectrum more, especially since I have the 2 Kessil h350 Deep Purple LEDs on each side of the HPS. They really put out a huge amount of blue and deep blue wavelengths. If I were to guess, each Kessil has 50w of Blue and 50w of Red.

Before I switched, I even tried a 400w CMH to see the overall spectrum. With all the other colors from the LEDs, the entire spectrum added up to a pure white, much cooler white than CMH stand alone(this is because of the extra blue light in the LEDs). I think this combo would be good for veg, but not red enough for bloom. The blue in the Kessil h350's is very abundant and forces and Neutral White HID to a more Cool White spectrum.

When I add up everything this is what I get by using the 250w HPS.

100w Pure Blue from the Deep Purples,

228w Red from the Deep Purples + h150 Reds

250w Yellow, Orange, IR from HPS

Total Blue = 100w

Total Red/orange/yellow/IR = 478w

This is very close to the 1:5 Ratio that Weezard insists on for flowering. Not sure if Weezard's ratio will directly convert over to my spectrum since I'm using other wavelengths besides just blue and 660 red, but I thought I would at least give it a try for a few days and see how the plants respond.

Hopefully I will not have to do any more switching around after this. This spectrum is very close to the idea I will be implementing in a LED fixture using the 10w LedEngine LEDs. The HPS acts as the Warm White LEDs I will be using even though the 250w of HPS is much more than the 50w of Warm Whites I will be starting with. The goal is to see how much of a reaction or positive response the yellow/orange/red/ in the Warm Whites will create for the plants if any at all. If I see a benefit, I may increase the warm white power to 90w. Time will tell.

I will put my Sativa dominant strains(blue loving) directly under the Deep Purple LEDs to get them under a "bluer" overall spectrum. The Sour D's and other "red loving" plants will be directly under the Kessil h150 Reds.

The way I see it, when Warm Whites(HPS in this room) are added to the spectrum, they help to push the red side of the spectrum.(Not sure how to figure out by how much.)

Photo updates to come.

I think that when 1 watt LEDs are used really close together almost like a single point light source, they can be more beneficial than one might think. The nice thing about the higher wattage LEDs is that they can be spread out more. Or used in smaller quantities in engines.

For instance, instead of using 100 x 1w LEDs in a 10 inch circle LED engine, you could get by with 33 x 3w LEDs in the same 10 inch LED circle engine. The light output/penetration differences would be nil.

The nice thing about 3w, 5w, 10w LEDs is that you can use fewer of them overall in a tighter area(with appropriate cooling) thus increasing overall intensity and penetration. Don't believe the companies that say multi-chip LEDs are not as bright as single-chip LEDs, it's total fucking BULLSHIT! The differences are nil. The real benefits from using 5w etc is that there is less wiring that you have to do.

See, the people that are having awesome results using warm white or neutral white high power, 100w SPOTLIGHT LEDs are using 100 chip 100w LEDs. The individual LEDs on their lights have 100 x 1w chips under 1 lens. No one would argue that they are "less bright" than 10 x 10w LEDs that have been spread out in a larger area because it would be a lie. A 100 chip 100w LED spot light that uses 100 x 1w led chips under 1 lense is MUCH brighter and more penetrating than a light that has 10 x 10w LEDs that have been spread out across a larger area than the tiny single-point spot LED.

These single LED spotlights are very similar to using an LED light that utilizes 1w LEDs packed into a small area. Yeah, the UFOs aren't really considered a "small area" like a single LED spot, but you get my point.

When an LED light is advertised, for example, as 90w, but only consumes an actual power draw of, lets say, 70w, it's because they are running the LEDs at a lower current than what the LEDs are rated for. They may be using 30 x 3w LEDs capable at running at 700mA, calling the light a 90w light, but only running the LEDs at 500mA. This is actually a good thing because it is going to make the LEDs last much longer(as long as they are properly being cooled.) It's just not going to be putting out the full 90w of light energy as they advertise.

The only way to find this out is to either ask the company before buying, or testing the power draw of the light fixture. There also may be a way of adjusting the current if the drivers they are using are adjustable so that you could crank up the brightness. Highly unlikely. You could also replace their driver with your own, but it wouldn't be cost effective.

As long as you are keeping your LEDs below 90 C(not positive on the temp), they are going to last their full potential time.

I found this comment in Wikipedia on "bleaching" when gathering some data on coral reef earlier today. Although this is about coral, I think it can be directly related to plants as well;

Bleaching is defined as the disassociation of the coral and the symbiont and/or loss of chlorophyll within the alga, resulting in a precipitous loss in the animal’s brown pigmentation. Many Symbiodinium-cnidarian associations are affected by sustained elevation of sea surface temperatures,[SUP][10][/SUP] but may also result from exposure to high irradiance levels (including UVR),[SUP][11][/SUP][SUP][12][/SUP] extreme low temperatures,[SUP][13][/SUP] low salinity,[SUP][14][/SUP] and other factors.

I believe when plants exhibit this "bleaching" phenomenon, what is happening is that the light irradiance levels are higher than they should be. It may be also due to high temperatures of the canopy, but mainly I think it's due to an improperly balanced spectrum. This is when and where I think 630nm(and 730nm) and lower wavelengths can be helpful(including green?). They help to balance out the equilibrium (irradiance) closer to that of natural sunlight. I'm not sure if how I am saying this is exactly accurate, but it's gotta be close.

This is what all of the information I have gathered says in relation to quantum yield/irradiance/phytochrome equilibrium. blah blah blah LOL.

Can someone please help me put this into a structured and accurate sentence? I'm not enough of an expert when it comes to this info. Learning as I go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photorespiration

a little bit of reading led me to this also having to do with the gneetic classification of a plant (c3 vs c4)

seems it is a safty switch built in terrestrial plants that normally live in moderate intensity light environments. also would play into your theory on blue and red light for sat and indicas too it seems. ive had some indicas burn but it takes a lot of light.

btw MJ is class C3

Photos of the "new spectrum." I'm not totally convinced that this will be "the one." It seems a bit orange/yellow heavy from the HPS. Maybe a 125w HPS would be a better match for the LEDs. That ratio will be closer to what my DIY LED light will have anyway. This sure makes a funky color from this spectrum mixture! LOL It's almost like a warm, hot pink.

Plants are continuously exposed to changes in the light spectrum, both short term and long term, due to changes in weather, the sun angle, and sun shade conditions. Of course, the absorption of incident light by a leaf is strongly wavelength dependent because different leaf pigments have different absorptance spectra; blue and red light are the most strongly absorbed, and leaves appear green because a relatively large proportion of green wavelengths are reflected rather than absorbed. However, even on an absorbed light basis, the quantum yield for CO[SUB]2[/SUB] fixation is wavelength dependent, with red light (600 to 640 nm) being the most effective and blue light (420 to 500 nm) the least effective. Causes that have been identified for the wavelength dependence of quantum yield of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] fixation include differential absorption by photosynthetic carotenoids and nonphotosynthetic pigments and an imbalanced excitation of the two photosystems (Terashima et al., 2009). One consequence of the latter cause is that plants have the capacity to optimize quantum yield for photosynthesis under variable conditions by altering photosystem composition and stoichiometry.

Also found this interesting,

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120524112344.htm

I've added CO2 to the HPS, Purple LED, Red LED spectrum today due to the extreme heat. I can't keep the temps down below 90F especially with the water chiller expelling heat into the room. I'm going to have to chill remotely once I get some extra tubing. 1300-1700ppm

most definiley(extend chiller)i turned off my co2 for the summer your best bet is to not add co2 but rather exhaust or add more air to the room

just threw a bud porn update to finish this terrible(not the worst by far) in my journal. i had screwed up a lot of things i will b very happy to switch up environments soon.

well at least i got some Dank!

polyarcturus said:

most definiley(extend chiller)i turned off my co2 for the summer your best bet is to not add co2 but rather exhaust or add more air to the room

Click to expand...

This is the first time using a chiller. LOL, my temps just hit 101 F with the chiller in the room. So until the extra tubing gets here to try doing the remote thing it will be just normal air. I think that once I get the chiller outside of the room I can get the temps down to around 90 F.

The plants actually perked up with the high temps and added CO2 for that short time. I hope the tubing gets here fast. It's the special John Guest 3/8" PE that you can't get at the hardware stores in town here.

I adapted the 1/2" barbed fitting to a 3/8" push in so that I can just quick connect and disconnect from the rez.(In and Out connected to the bottom of rez with bulkhead push in fittings.)

Makes it super easy to clean and to add PH up or down into the bottom of the rez through the "Out" chiller feed tube, rather than having to wait for it to mix in through the top. Ph adjusting is fast and easy.

My Lemon Skunk DID NOT like the added 250w HPS lamp I threw in there. I've taken it out and have only the red and blue LEDs going right now until they recover. Yellow light in high ratios seems to have an overall negative impact on health to at least this one strain.

The other strains did not take a hit, but they also did not show any kind of improvement that I've seen with the other lamps. I cannot afford a disaster at this point.

I'm running into my first set of problems now. Hopefully we can get some more action going in this thread. Sorry If I'm boring the crap out of everyone. LOL

My LS is starting to show some issues. The leaf edges are curling down on some of the older fan leaves. The new growth is looking good, but overall the plants are not super happy about something. The other strains are fine, it's just the LS.

Any idea what could cause leaf edge downward curl? I checked out a couple possibilities, one of which is PH, and the other overwatering. I don't think it can be either because my hydro LS is doing it and so is the coco LS. The PH is spot on. Overwatering is impossible for hydro especially since I have the flood timer at 3 hour off and 10 min on interval.