Want to change the government?

Rob Roy said:
Anytime you tell another person what they MUST do under threat of force if that person is minding his own business, you or the entity you are part of has "initiated aggression" or attacked a peaceful person. All coercive governments use a variation of this same universal theme.

Perhaps some people are ALREADY living in a successful liberatarian society but hide it for fear of being attacked by your champions. As far as whether a thing has happened or not, that doesn't prove it can't happen or when / if it does it will not be an improvement over the status quo.

If coercive government has such good ideas why must people be forced to do them? Sounds a bit slavish to me.

So, are you the kind of person that likes to make others choices for them? What does that say about you?
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You could be making 16 cents an hour in a Bangladesh sweathouse making soccerballs that is slavish. Making choices for people is representative democracy, your contract to it is your citezinship, I don't see a link between ideas and coercive government. In a country, nobody is going to agree on political issues so what do you do? Complaining about your oppression is insulting to a lot of the world that has real oppression. You are living a nice fantasy but need perspective. Offer solutions, work for that eventuality, but round and round is all I see you do here.
 
burgertime2010 said:
You could be making 16 cents an hour in a Bangladesh sweathouse making soccerballs that is slavish. Making choices for people is representative democracy, your contract to it is your citezinship, I don't see a link between ideas and coercive government. In a country, nobody is going to agree on political issues so what do you do? Complaining about your oppression is insulting to a lot of the world that has real oppression. You are living a nice fantasy but need perspective. Offer solutions, work for that eventuality, but round and round is all I see you do here.
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Stop trying to forcefully coerce him into having valid opinions based on reality

Just stop
Just stop oppressing Rob Roy
 
Rob Roy said:
Can you show me a copy of the "social contract" ? Who specifically agreed to it?

I think I answered your questions. Which ones would you like clarification on?


Also, I've asked you twice nicely, if you are the kind of person that want to tell others what to do or the kind that wants to be told what to do?
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.

Your parents had the authority to sign it for you when they birthed you here and gave you all the benefits of this country when you grew up.
No one is FORCING you to abide by the contract, nothing is stopping you from leaving

So why dont you??
 
burgertime2010 said:
I am not arguing, but for the sake of discussion the collateral impact affects others and that you cannot just ignore. I believe in the right to your body, your safety, and property.....if a guy built a dam upstream and ruined a water supply for my farm, the govt would be the least of his issues.....he would be fertilizer. You cannot be reckless in the name of property that is only yours in liquid form as it temporarily flows through property. What if a dam was built upstream from him? You would want intervention...I am just saying.
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Not my uncles fault you bought land below his. That water is his water all of it. He is a libertarian and he doesnt believe in goverment or a goverment that can force him not to build that dam
Becuase that is oppressive man.

And forget about trying to kill him. He has a private army financed thru investors who hope to strangle the water supply to all you downstream landowners unless you pay them lots of money
 
ChesusRice said:
Not my uncles fault you bought land below his. That water is his water all of it. He is a libertarian and he doesnt believe in goverment or a goverment that can force him not to build that dam
Becuase that is oppressive man.

And forget about trying to kill him. He has a private army financed thru investors who hope to strangle the water supply to all you downstream landowners unless you pay them lots of money
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Water is not land though, the riverbed perhaps.......beliefs aside, I could just go upstream and pour cadmium in the river and Lake Cancer would be born. I am a bit tired but I can't tell if you are joking, no offense if you are not.
 
burgertime2010 said:
Water is not land though, the riverbed perhaps.......beliefs aside, I could just go upstream and pour cadmium in the river and Lake Cancer would be born. I am a bit tired but I can't tell if you are joking, no offense if you are not.
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I am bulldozing a gigantic hole thru Rob Roys twisted, untenable Anarchist utopian vision of the world.
And you notice that after three pages he still wont answer the question of naming one successful libertarian country that ever existed in history
 
ChesusRice said:
I am bulldozing a gigantic hole thru Rob Roys twisted, untenable Anarchist utopian vision of the world.
And you notice that after three pages he still wont answer the question of naming one successful libertarian country that ever existed in history
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I have been in this identical situation with him. I made every major point you have, asked him to come back to land but nothing. A lot of the real right never answer the questions that show the bullshit. It is just complaints or shots below the belt.......most not all of them.
 
Rob Roy said:
Can you show me a copy of the "social contract" ? Who specifically agreed to it?

I think I answered your questions. Which ones would you like clarification on?


Also, I've asked you twice nicely, if you are the kind of person that want to tell others what to do or the kind that wants to be told what to do?
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Explanations are meaningless to you. There is no contract beyond citizen. You can denounce that today. It is deeper, much deeper. It is the Pact of Tribe. I already to you.

It is a two sided coin, for mission and for bivouac/lager/camp/city etc.

Mission - fight with us or we will kill you before the enemy does, No running and hiding

Camp - let the elders settle it under the rules of the tribe, No vendetta

That's it. So, you already do it, you already agreed, you already enjoy the benefit.

You don't sign up to Fight..all volunteer, but you could and if you did, Mission rules apply.

You don't beat on the neighbor children...you call the cops, you don't have to, but the camp rules apply.

Why make it difficult? If you can't get this, the rest is just layers of law and opinion.
 
burgertime2010 said:
Water is not land though, the riverbed perhaps.......beliefs aside, I could just go upstream and pour cadmium in the river and Lake Cancer would be born. I am a bit tired but I can't tell if you are joking, no offense if you are not.
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Water wars, burger. You know it is coming. Those nations that don't own their headwaters are screwed.

Why do you think China annexed Tibet? Needed the dirt? Hardly. They own all the headwaters for their country, now.

So, legally it is Riparian Right, and much contested even between States, much less Nations.

And damming and poisoning have been part of water wars since before the Romans.
 
ChesusRice said:
.

Your parents had the authority to sign it for you when they birthed you here and gave you all the benefits of this country when you grew up.
No one is FORCING you to abide by the contract, nothing is stopping you from leaving
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i think its all lies. the UCC allows for you to cancel and rescind the contract your parents entered for you and everything, but the government isnt even telling anyone what it means to be in this contract. furthermore, the government simply chooses what obligations they have. they can deny you the benefit of protection from those who would do you harm. check out the Deshaney (spelling) case or Bowers v Devito. they will tell somebody one thing, and then do another. soooo many cases of people being arrested for not showing id and all sorts of things that our supreme court and our constitution has given us protection from. but they ignore all of these things and do what is convenient. even the clause in the constitution requiring us to only use gold and silver as money. what a crock. bs and lies
 
darrellduaner said:
i think its all lies. the UCC allows for you to cancel and rescind the contract your parents entered for you and everything, but the government isnt even telling anyone what it means to be in this contract. furthermore, the government simply chooses what obligations they have. they can deny you the benefit of protection from those who would do you harm. check out the Deshaney (spelling) case or Bowers v Devito. they will tell somebody one thing, and then do another. soooo many cases of people being arrested for not showing id and all sorts of things that our supreme court and our constitution has given us protection from. but they ignore all of these things and do what is convenient. even the clause in the constitution requiring us to only use gold and silver as money. what a crock. bs and lies
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From the ant's perspective, the cloud is a lie.
 
burgertime2010 said:
You could be making 16 cents an hour in a Bangladesh sweathouse making soccerballs that is slavish. Making choices for people is representative democracy, your contract to it is your citezinship, I don't see a link between ideas and coercive government. In a country, nobody is going to agree on political issues so what do you do? Complaining about your oppression is insulting to a lot of the world that has real oppression. You are living a nice fantasy but need perspective. Offer solutions, work for that eventuality, but round and round is all I see you do here.
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Slavish is when you do not have control of the fruit of your labor and somebody else controls all or part of it and you can do nothing about it. Not every slave looks like Django on the end of a chain.

The rest of your post seems lacking any rebuttal with substance. So which kind of person are you the kind that likes to force other peaceful people to do things they may not want to or the kind that likes to have others force their choices on him? Why do you like government programs backed by threats of violence?
 
Wilksey said:
Well done post.

Agree with the sentiment 100%.

Too bad other folks can't follow your example, drop the party line, and communicate like an adult.
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Well certainly mutual understanding and communication are good practices.

Ultimately whether you like the blue team or the red team, the tactics they both use to obtain obedience are the same aren't they? I think children that know not to hit somebody first have a better understanding of the non-aggression principle than many adults. Asking government to give you something, is the same as asking them to take something away from somebody else. Better not to let them broker and define your relationships with other people.
 
Doer said:
From the ant's perspective, the cloud is a lie.
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except the cloud doesnt subject the ant to its whims and plans while claiming to provide useful services to the ant. the cloud does not bullshit the ant and try to convince the ant that the ant is better off with the services that the cloud claims to provide. the cloud doesnt force the ant to be a part of the cloud's reality, or to participate in its activities.
are you implying, by the way, that the government and its activities and objectives are beyond my understanding in the way that a cloud is beyond the understanding of an ant?
 
darrellduaner said:
except the cloud doesnt subject the ant to its whims and plans while claiming to provide useful services to the ant. the cloud does not bullshit the ant and try to convince the ant that the ant is better off with the services that the cloud claims to provide. the cloud doesnt force the ant to be a part of the cloud's reality, or to participate in its activities.
are you implying, by the way, that the government and its activities and objectives are beyond my understanding in the way that a cloud is beyond the understanding of an ant?
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The ant can always move if it doesnt like the cloud's protective shade

The cloud isnt stopping it
 
ChesusRice said:
I am bulldozing a gigantic hole thru Rob Roys twisted, untenable Anarchist utopian vision of the world.
And you notice that after three pages he still wont answer the question of naming one successful libertarian country that ever existed in history
Click to expand...

so that's your argument? That a libertarian society cannot exist because it has not existed before? At one time many things did not exist before, things like cars, basketballs, plastics etc etc etc, their nonexistence had no bearing on whether or not they COULD exist in the future. I could just as well say that man will never set foot upon Mars, because they haven't done it ever in history, but I wouldn't say that because I would look like a blithering idiot.

If a guy upstream dammed the water, I would just wait for it to fill and then thank the man for managing the spring floods for me. Its not like a dam holds the water back for forever you know?
 
NoDrama said:
If a guy upstream dammed the water, I would just wait for it to fill and then thank the man for managing the spring floods for me. Its not like a dam holds the water back for forever you know?
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Or maybe if a guy upstream provided healthcare for the masses, you would just wait until you could take advantage of the competitive pricing that undoubtedly comes with that implementation? [As you believe the water will eventually trickle down]
 
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