The Battle Rages On: Class Warfare.

[Ernst]

You are confusing wealth with money, they are different things. Putting a Cap on what someone can achieve will ensure that no one achieves much.

Right. I think we have an understanding that no mater what the system (capitalism or communism for example ) the people muck it up.
So what about removing the top economic class from private hands?

It's a thought exercise. One that points out that we are unable to think outside the box and when we are unable to imagine change our skills in effecting change atrophy.

So what if all we are now gets stabilized? That we can once again trust that we will have a job that pays for a house should be a right not a game of chance.

So to allow a few to destroy the future of an entire planet because of what we are trained to believe may be the cancer that brings it all down anyway so perhaps changing things using modern science may be the best thing.

Unless we really do not want Democracy because it gets in the way of private wealth.

 

[NoDrama]

Nope that is not at all what I am saying..... Well, not really. What I am saying is that I can create wealth through human inginuity and that someone doesn't need loose out because I did so. In fact they benefit. I am saying there is no pie. The pie is a fabrication of Marx and other materialist. I am saying that labor doesn't equal wealth or human worth. I am saying I am a Capitalist and he/she is not.

Oh ok, but you don't really mean to imply that resources are limitless do you? I mean we ran out of Dinosaurs and Passenger pigeons right?

 

[NoDrama]

Right. I think we have an understanding that no mater what the system (capitalism or communism for example ) the people muck it up.
So what about removing the top economic class from private hands?

It's a thought exercise. One that points out that we are unable to think outside the box and when we are unable to imagine change our skills in effecting change atrophy.

So what if all we are now gets stabilized? That we can once again trust that we will have a job that pays for a house should be a right not a game of chance.

So to allow a few to destroy the future of an entire planet because of what we are trained to believe may be the cancer that brings it all down anyway so perhaps changing things using modern science may be the best thing.

Unless we really do not want Democracy because it gets in the way of private wealth.

So lets say you have 2 people in a room, both want a job. the first Candidate was trained at the finest schools, will show up on time everyday, has a clean appearance and knows how to do the job. The next guy dresses like a slob, barely has the reasoning power to keep his fly zipped up and calls you a dick head and a self serving pussy faced piece of shit during your interview. Which guy do you hire?

 

[Windsblow]

Oh ok, but you don't really mean to imply that resources are limitless do you? I mean we ran out of Dinosaurs and Passenger pigeons right?

I do mean resources are limitless... The principles of supply and demand protects resources, and when what we use now becomes scarces, we will move to, invent and utilize other resources in a more efficient manner. We won't just starve to death or eat soilent green. Man will always have the ability to progresss and problem solve. Matter (resources) never dissapears it just changes forms. Dinosaurs and passenger pigeons are not needed and really never dissapeared they just changed forms.

Also, to the same point, when passenger pigeons dissapeared we didn't stop sending messages did we? Nope! infact, we devised a better more efficient and cheaper way to do the same job. Resources never ever run out. Just the patience and God given reasoning to let the market do it's job does.

 

[Windsblow]

Right. I think we have an understanding that no mater what the system (capitalism or communism for example ) the people muck it up.
So what about removing the top economic class from private hands?

It's a thought exercise. One that points out that we are unable to think outside the box and when we are unable to imagine change our skills in effecting change atrophy.

So what if all we are now gets stabilized? That we can once again trust that we will have a job that pays for a house should be a right not a game of chance.

So to allow a few to destroy the future of an entire planet because of what we are trained to believe may be the cancer that brings it all down anyway so perhaps changing things using modern science may be the best thing.

Unless we really do not want Democracy because it gets in the way of private wealth.

Man has no right to anything given. Man only has the right to achieve. You cannot guarantee me the right to something with out a guarantee that something will be taken from others.

 

[Windsblow]

So these plants I am growing are growing something of wealth..... Has someone/something lossed wealth because of it? NO! And if I sell some of it (which I will not) there would be a mutual voluntary transaction that 2 parties have agreed upon and both benefited from. Capitalism and consumption of resources. I created something that is consumed and quickly is returned to the earth for use once again. Capitalism!

 

[Dan Kone]

So these plants I am growing are growing something of wealth..... Has someone/something lossed wealth because of it? NO! And if I sell some of it (which I will not) there would be a mutual voluntary transaction that 2 parties have agreed upon and both benefited from. Capitalism and consumption of resources. I created something that is consumed and quickly is returned to the earth for use once again. Capitalism!

Correct. But if you were to convince your state to make budget cuts, laying off teachers so you can get a big tax cut, then you'd be harming the majority. Also if your company was to move to a third world country for the cheap labor, putting all your American workers in the unemployment line then you'd harming American workers. If you're a one of these CEO's who gets rich off of downsizing, same thing. These large corporations aren't pulling this stuff for the purposes of survival, they are doing it so the people at the top can pull in record breaking wealth.

Just because you CAN make money without harming others that does not mean a lot the extremely wealthy folks aren't totally fucking over Americans so they can take in more money for themselves. We aren't talking economic theory here. We are talking about reality.

 

[NoDrama]

I do mean resources are limitless... The principles of supply and demand protects resources, and when what we use now becomes scarces, we will move to, invent and utilize other resources in a more efficient manner. We won't just starve to death or eat soilent green. Man will always have the ability to progresss and problem solve. Matter (resources) never dissapears it just changes forms. Dinosaurs and passenger pigeons are not needed and really never dissapeared they just changed forms.

Also, to the same point, when passenger pigeons dissapeared we didn't stop sending messages did we? Nope! infact, we devised a better more efficient and cheaper way to do the same job. Resources never ever run out. Just the patience and God given reasoning to let the market do it's job does.

I don't agree with your assessment of the market. The market exists BECAUSE we have limited resources in the first place. If there really were limitless resources, then everything would be free. Alas there are VERY limited resources available. Take for instance silver, did you know for 10,000 different items silver has NO SUBSTITUTE? 40 years ago there were 5 Billion ounces of refined silver above ground, today there is less than 1 billion. 4 billion ounces were destroyed, never to be seen again. Since silver is not found deep in the ground the USGS has stated that silver for all intents and purposes will be extinct by the year 2035. A limited resource that cannot just be created out of ingenuity.

BTW Passenger pigeons were not used to send messages, they were mostly just shot for sport or eaten. In 1866 there were flocks of Passenger Pigeons that were 3.5 Billion in number that flew in a 1 mile wide swath 300 miles long. Estimates of passenger pigeon population exceed 5 billion in number just for the US as late as 1840. In 1 year alone in the State of Michigan more than 1 billion were harvested. The last one died in 1914. The most abundant bird species on earth, utterly wiped from the face of the earth. A limited resource that can not be duplicated.

 

[canndo]

Once again your logic is circular as is all Materialist theories. You say the pie can't expand as fast as the workers can create new wealth? This is predicated on a lie that their is a pie and that wealth is created by labor. A faulty premise that history has proven false time and time again.

Such a sad and limited view a large portion of mankind accepts. When will we learn that life, resources and human inginuity are endless and not confined by any theory trumped up by fearful, jealous and egoistic humans. I am more than Labor and I am more than Matter. Wealth is an abstract that cannot be confined by nor fully defined by some faulty economic theories, especially yours.

Nothing circular about my logic at all, If you disagree with the essential premise, then show me this? True, human inginuity is endless. Life is not. It is a magnificent view of who we are as a species but it is not grounded in reality
If you are refering to wealth in the abstract then I heartily agree. There is the wealth of the unspoiled, the wealth of love and knowlege, but this is not what you seem to be talking about.

There is a pie in the real world. Let us look at the GDP of the U.S. it does indeed expand but only by some small percentages. There is no physical wealth except what men create. All of it is limited by resources in the ground, in the water, in the air. This is the imutable fact. How has this been "proven false time after time"? Again, is oil and gold limitless?

 

[NoDrama]

If oil turns out to be abiotic, then yes it might actually be limitless. I mean think about how many dinosaurs it must have taken to provide millions of barrels a day, seems kind of far fetched.

 

[Windsblow]

Correct. But if you were to convince your state to make budget cuts, laying off teachers so you can get a big tax cut, then you'd be harming the majority. Also if your company was to move to a third world country for the cheap labor, putting all your American workers in the unemployment line then you'd harming American workers. If you're a one of these CEO's who gets rich off of downsizing, same thing. These large corporations aren't pulling this stuff for the purposes of survival, they are doing it so the people at the top can pull in record breaking wealth.

Just because you CAN make money without harming others that does not mean a lot the extremely wealthy folks aren't totally fucking over Americans so they can take in more money for themselves. We aren't talking economic theory here. We are talking about reality.

The folly with your logic it you believe the State should be involved in the market place. I believe the State is the root of all that is evil and wrong. We do not need to State in order to equalize life, liberty and wealth. The State is the antithesis of all these ideals. People or Corporation have no ability to take advatage of the system unless a powerful State passes and enforces laws that favor them.

 

[Windsblow]

If oil turns out to be abiotic, then yes it might actually be limitless. I mean think about how many dinosaurs it must have taken to provide millions of barrels a day, seems kind of far fetched.

Yes, There are a growing number of reutable scientist that are starting to believe oil is a renewable resource. That it is impossible for 20,000 T-rex's to fall into a pile all at the same time. There is evidence that there are carbon molecule in crude oil that could not have come from living organisms.

 

[Windsblow]

Nothing circular about my logic at all, If you disagree with the essential premise, then show me this? True, human inginuity is endless. Life is not. It is a magnificent view of who we are as a species but it is not grounded in reality
If you are refering to wealth in the abstract then I heartily agree. There is the wealth of the unspoiled, the wealth of love and knowlege, but this is not what you seem to be talking about.

There is a pie in the real world. Let us look at the GDP of the U.S. it does indeed expand but only by some small percentages. There is no physical wealth except what men create. All of it is limited by resources in the ground, in the water, in the air. This is the imutable fact. How has this been "proven false time after time"? Again, is oil and gold limitless?

Is it by intent that you miss my point?

 

[Windsblow]

Nothing circular about my logic at all, If you disagree with the essential premise, then show me this? True, human inginuity is endless. Life is not. It is a magnificent view of who we are as a species but it is not grounded in reality
If you are refering to wealth in the abstract then I heartily agree. There is the wealth of the unspoiled, the wealth of love and knowlege, but this is not what you seem to be talking about.

There is a pie in the real world. Let us look at the GDP of the U.S. it does indeed expand but only by some small percentages. There is no physical wealth except what men create. All of it is limited by resources in the ground, in the water, in the air. This is the imutable fact. How has this been "proven false time after time"? Again, is oil and gold limitless?

There is no pie GDP is an assesment of production not a pool of assests the rich folk tap into. I have bred pigeon all my life and know passenger pigeon were once wild but were do you think their name came from? Again you totally missed my point.

 

[Windsblow]

If oil turns out to be abiotic, then yes it might actually be limitless. I mean think about how many dinosaurs it must have taken to provide millions of barrels a day, seems kind of far fetched.

I think you ment biotic? But I think I understood what you were saying

 

[Dan Kone]

The folly with your logic it you believe the State should be involved in the market place.

That's not a folly. That is a fact. The state IS and always has been involved in the market place going back to the old kingdom of Egypt.

I don't understand why people treat the marketplace as if it were some kind of mystical deity that can not be interfered with. People act as if it is a benevolent self aware life form when saying things like "let the invisible hand of the market sort it out".

Well guess what? The market isn't sacred or a sentient being. It's just a thing. A tool used to promote our wellbeing. We can interfere with it, we always have interfered with it, and we always should interfere with it.

If we do not, people will take advantage of that ripping us off. The market needs to be well regulated. With regulation comes security and control over the economy. There is no advantage over letting scammers free to rip us off or for businesses to operate in a way where many of their primary sources of profits is to eliminate American jobs.

You want to protect the market FROM the majority American people, not FOR the majority American people. I think you're the one making the logical folly there.

I believe the State is the root of all that is evil and wrong.

I believe that makes you paranoid. The state is what we make it. If there are flaws, then we should fix them, not become anarchists.

People or Corporation have no ability to take advatage of the system unless a powerful State passes and enforces laws that favor them.

I think most Africans would disagree with that. Eliminate the state or weaken it then you still have rival groups fighting for power, just with no limits on what they can do.

 

[BudMcLovin]

Windsblow your avatar is the shit. +rep for it and the quality post.

 

[Windsblow]

That's not a folly. That is a fact. The state IS and always has been involved in the market place going back to the old kingdom of Egypt.



I don't understand why people treat the marketplace as if it were some kind of mystical deity that can not be interfered with. People act as if it is a benevolent self aware life form when saying things like "let the invisible hand of the market sort it out".

Well guess what? The market isn't sacred or a sentient being. It's just a thing. A tool used to promote our wellbeing. We can interfere with it, we always have interfered with it, and we always should interfere with it.


If we do not, people will take advantage of that ripping us off. The market needs to be well regulated. With regulation comes security and control over the economy. There is no advantage over letting scammers free to rip us off or for businesses to operate in a way where many of their primary sources of profits is to eliminate American jobs.


You want to protect the market FROM the majority American people, not FOR the majority American people. I think you're the one making the logical folly there.

What? This makes not sense!



I believe that makes you paranoid. The state is what we make it. If there are flaws, then we should fix them, not become anarchists.




I think most Africans would disagree with that. Eliminate the state or weaken it then you still have rival groups fighting for power, just with no limits on what they can do.

I am no Anarchist but State have a legal right to murder. Business don't. You must believe Thomas Jefferson Was paranoid.

YOu view on on regulated people ripping everyone off and stealing your property is Paranoia not my positive view of man kind. Yes there are some regulations that are needed but very few.


And people and whole civilization have been destroyed for the right to mettle with the market. Historian estimated some 500 million people have been slaughtered in the last 1 thousand year for the right to be involved in "Markets"

You don't understand Natural Laws then. The market can't be messed with we just mettle with the outcomes. If we learn what laws regulate it and obey them then we become a better race of humans


African are vitims of the State. What the Hell are talking about. The lack of Capitalism, Property rights and individual right is why tribal war fair continues.

Let me ask you this. Do you think marijuana should be legal. Now think very carefull before you answer because this might be a philossophical trap.

 

[Windsblow]

Windsblow your avatar is the shit. +rep for it and the quality post.

Thank you.

 

[Dan Kone]

YOu view on on regulated people ripping everyone off and stealing your property is Paranoia not my positive view of man kind. Yes there are some regulations that are needed but very few.

But that is happening NOW due to lack of regulations. Look at the current state of our economy. We got rid of banking safe guards put in place after the 1929 stock market collapse. This made credit default swaps legal. Then mortgage banks and Wall St scammed us out of a ton of money and working class people's homes.

No of that would have been able to happen if it wasn't for deregulation.

So no, that isn't paranoia. That is our current reality.

And people and whole civilization have been destroyed for the right to mettle with the market. Historian estimated some 500 million people have been slaughtered in the last 1 thousand year for the right to be involved in "Markets"

lol. WTF does that mean? If we regulate the economy we will all be killed?

lol. GTFO

You don't understand Natural Laws then. The market can't be messed with we just mettle with the outcomes.

Ok, well that's not true. But you don't sound like someone who's going to listen to reason, so believe what you like.

If we learn what laws regulate it and obey them then we become a better race of humans

Agreed.

Let me ask you this. Do you think marijuana should be legal. Now think very carefull before you answer because this might be a philossophical trap.

I don't need to think very carefully. I think it should be legal. I think the business aspect of it should be well regulated, but possession and personal cultivation should have no penalty at all.