The Battle Rages On: Class Warfare.

doc111 said:

The progressive agenda would likely have us living in a similar fashion, with 2 classes: The ruling, political class and the working poor. I agree things are fucked up but killing the goose that lays the golden egg hardly seems like the solution to the problem. Painting the "wealthy" as the devil isn't solving a thing. There will always be the have's and have not's. The have not's will always envy the have's. Seems kinda like what's going on here.

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A cap on private wealth will do the trick.
Given that the number of people who will be displaced while the rest are stabilized will be much lower than total baby deaths and starvation deaths in a single day on this planet it seems to be the most painless way to correct a few hundred years of animal ignorance.
Above a certain amount of private wealth we enter into public wealth where that is the domain of Government.
This planet isn't the "Grace of God Plantation" but it is being run that way.
No mater what the clock is ticking for this planet so how do we proceed?

Here we are with technology that should cancel the need for poverty and pollution and we are going to stick to the "Strip Mine" approach to planetary resources.

So cap private wealth and establish public wealth and let us use what we have discovered for the Good Works any civilization can be proud to share at some Inter Galactic bar in the future.

Those who promote heaven and hell are really just explaining economic injustice.

angelsbandit said:

Your statement is exactly what is wrong in the USA.

So you think you should get a loan, but should not have to repay, Paying your obligations does not make you a slave - it makes you a responsible man or woman.
Those who have made it did so by working hard and paying their obligations, and not by sitting home crying about how someone has it better.

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Who said that? Sure wasn't me, I already have a degree and already paid off my debt a long long time ago, but then again school was much less expensive then too. But the point I was tryin to make and the one in which I think you construed me to be some lowlife parasitic government cheese eater instead of who i really am, was that No matter how bad things get for you, even if you cannot find employment for years and years, that school loan you took out for $80k might very well be hundreds of Thousands of dollars by the time you find a job that will support you and your school payments. People need to be really serious about taking out a college loan, they never go away and you can be in a lot of debt very quickly. Debt is like a shackle that keeps you from living life, instead you work your ass off to pay your debt so that some day you can be freed from it and go onto enjoy your life. Living life with ZERO debt is like having the shackles removed and the weight off your shoulders. I can't tell you how good it was to make a final balloon payment on my house after having made payments for 11 years.

"Those who have made it did so by working hard and paying their obligations..."

Really, tell that to B. Madoff.

doc111 said:

The bottom line of many companies during this recession and the fact that many have failed would seem to indicate otherwise.

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"
NEW YORK -- Despite high unemployment and a largely languishing real estate market, U.S. businesses are more profitable than ever, according to federal figures released on Friday.
U.S. corporate profits hit an all-time high at the end of 2010, with financial firms showing some of the biggest gains, data from the federal Bureau of Economic Analysis show. Corporations reported an annualized $1.68 trillion in profit in the fourth quarter. The previous record, without being adjusted for inflation, was $1.65 trillion in the third quarter of 2006.
Many of the nation's preeminent companies have posted massive increases in profits this year. General Electric posted worldwide profits of $14.2 billion, while profits at JPMorgan Chase were up 47 percent to $4.8 billion.
Corporate profits steadily increased last year as companies continued holding onto record amounts of cash and other liquid assets while cutting costs, laying off workers and wringing more productivity -- defined as the amount of output that comes from an hour of work -- from remaining staff, even as the recession eased." Huffpo.

canndo said:

"Those who have made it did so by working hard and paying their obligations..."

Really, tell that to B. Madoff.

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Isn't the scheme nearly the same as fractional reserve banking?
What is the difference?

Windsblow said:

This statement is so backwards and nonsensicle it defies all logic. This is a very good example of how little the public understand the free market and the relationship between private and public sectors. Your comment is predicated on a mythical concept that wealth is static. That there is only one pie that we all have to share. If I get more, someone has to get less........ Total Horseshit! I can create wealth out of thin air through ingenuity and hardwork. The Government doesn't control or own the means of production nor can it control it. As for the Corporation fear. You don't fear private corporations. You fear the power they gain when Government mettles with Corporations. Profit are good for everyone.......

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Um... that depends. The reason wealth is wealth is because of scarcity. The more coveted and scarce something is, the more it is worth. What you are saying here is that there is no scarcity and this is incorrect. Indeed the wealth "pie" grows but it grows very slowly and there is a limit on all resources including the resource of wealth. If I invent a new sort of marijuana growing method I will take money from those who sell a conventional method, hence no real growth of wealth there. So long as there is competition someone is taking money from someone - profits are assuredly not "good for everyone", as they inevitably come at an expense.

MomaPug said:

I would imagine more like; a business plan a bank would lend on, money to back it, lawyers to help point out loopholes.....lots of research to decide what faction you want to be associated with, a separate tax lawyer for the gov and write-offs...then maybe a contract?

Simple

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I've been learning about the Fractional reserve system of banking.

Since the money is imaginary isn't it a wiser investment for Humanity to put a cap on private wealth?
Oh the Walmarts or similar would still operate albeit to provide economic resource for the people.
Still folks will be rich it's just at some point wealth shifts from private to public.

It's worth thinking out of the box otherwise we are slaves.
So yeah doing something that contributes to society is very important and even rewarding those who make the effort to achieve above average things like college degrees or other worthy pursuits are just fine but at some point the amount of wealth is actually a Government itself and I believe all Government both Legal and Economic are the domain of the people to control.

So it's rather simple.. Cap private wealth and go high tech for the future.
It's a mater of time for the planet not an issue of God granting grace to some.

Ernst said:

I've been learning about the Fractional reserve system of banking.

Since the money is imaginary isn't it a wiser investment for Humanity to put a cap on private wealth?
Oh the Walmarts or similar would still operate albeit to provide economic resource for the people.
Still folks will be rich it's just at some point wealth shifts from private to public.

It's worth thinking out of the box otherwise we are slaves.
So yeah doing something that contributes to society is very important and even rewarding those who make the effort to achieve above average things like college degrees or other worthy pursuits are just fine but at some point the amount of wealth is actually a Government itself and I believe all Government both Legal and Economic are the domain of the people to control.

So it's rather simple.. Cap private wealth and go high tech for the future.
It's a mater of time for the planet not an issue of God granting grace to some.

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You are confusing wealth with money, they are different things. Putting a Cap on what someone can achieve will ensure that no one achieves much.

canndo said:

Um... that depends. The reason wealth is wealth is because of scarcity. The more coveted and scarce something is, the more it is worth. What you are saying here is that there is no scarcity and this is incorrect. Indeed the wealth "pie" grows but it grows very slowly and there is a limit on all resources including the resource of wealth. If I invent a new sort of marijuana growing method I will take money from those who sell a conventional method, hence no real growth of wealth there. So long as there is competition someone is taking money from someone - profits are assuredly not "good for everyone", as they inevitably come at an expense.

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Totally baseless fabrication. This statement was pulled out of thin air and has no integrity. You can't just make up reality. You have no idea how the laws of economics behave.

doc111 said:

The progressive agenda would likely have us living in a similar fashion, with 2 classes: The ruling, political class and the working poor

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No no no. The progressive agenda strongly advocates worker's rights. The foundation of progressive economics is that the economy functions the best and the country prospers the most when we gear our laws towards empowering the majority economically. The conservative agenda is basically to funnel all money to the ultra wealthy and hope they share their spare change with us.

Here's the taxing policy I advocate.

Make a new top tax bracket that applies only to folks making a personal income of $750k per year and above. Tax them at 50-60% for personal income, close most loopholes. Then lower the corporate tax rate to ~8%. Give companies who hire American workers huge tax breaks. Slap tariffs on all goods coming from countries which have substandard labor practices or put tariffs on our goods.

The thought behind that is to make the most profitable thing a wealthy person can possibly do with their money is to create American jobs. If we did that we wouldn't have an unemployment problem and middle class wages would skyrocket. The economy would run like a brand new benz. And we could use the additional revenue we get from taxing the rich to pay off the debt.

Problem solved. But of course we can't do that because the wealthy have the economy rigged to favor them regardless of the cost to the majority of Americans.

I agree things are fucked up but killing the goose that lays the golden egg hardly seems like the solution to the problem.

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There are no geese or golden eggs. Only outsourcing, wall st scams, unemployment, union busting, downsizing, and cut backs. Those eggs are only golden if you're a member of the wealthy class. To the rest of us, those eggs are rotten.

Painting the "wealthy" as the devil isn't solving a thing.

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I don't believe I'm doing that. I'm painting our trade, tax, and labor policies as the devil. There is a difference. I don't hate Bill Gates because he's rich. I hate the laws which allow him to pay a lower percentage of his income to taxes than the janitor who cleans his toilets.

There will always be the have's and have not's. The have not's will always envy the have's. Seems kinda like what's going on here.

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Then you're wrong. I've got no problem with people trying to make money. I try to make money myself. I've got a problem with the fact that we are sacrificing the middle class so the wealthy can gain even more wealth. It's not worth it. It's not envy, I do just fine. I'm not a member of the working poor. But a lot of people are and I care about that. When the country ends up with everyone being working poor or ultrawealthy, we all suffer if we aren't members of that elite class.

canndo said:

"Those who have made it did so by working hard and paying their obligations..."

Really, tell that to B. Madoff.

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Or Donald Trump or the Koch brothers. Their "hard work" was being born to the right parents.

Ernst said:

I've been learning about the Fractional reserve system of banking.

Since the money is imaginary isn't it a wiser investment for Humanity to put a cap on private wealth?
Oh the Walmarts or similar would still operate albeit to provide economic resource for the people.
Still folks will be rich it's just at some point wealth shifts from private to public.

It's worth thinking out of the box otherwise we are slaves.
So yeah doing something that contributes to society is very important and even rewarding those who make the effort to achieve above average things like college degrees or other worthy pursuits are just fine but at some point the amount of wealth is actually a Government itself and I believe all Government both Legal and Economic are the domain of the people to control.

So it's rather simple.. Cap private wealth and go high tech for the future.
It's a mater of time for the planet not an issue of God granting grace to some.

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Get off the zeitgeist broham

Windsblow said:

Totally baseless fabrication. This statement was pulled out of thin air and has no integrity. You can't just make up reality. You have no idea how the laws of economics behave.

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I have a gread deal of "idea" about this. Is scarcity and need or desire the basis of worth? (not intrinsic worth mind you, but what a particular item can be sold for). Is there anything that is sold that has no competition? Is there indeed a limit to all resources? Mind you, when it gets down to it, all wealth is finally a product of resources. It seems you have not countered any of my argument except by saying it is wrong, that usually doesn't do.

canndo said:

I have a gread deal of "idea" about this. Is scarcity and need or desire the basis of worth? (not intrinsic worth mind you, but what a particular item can be sold for). Is there anything that is sold that has no competition? Is there indeed a limit to all resources? Mind you, when it gets down to it, all wealth is finally a product of resources. It seems you have not countered any of my argument except by saying it is wrong, that usually doesn't do.

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You have not said anything. how can I counter? It does seem you believe there is a limit to resources which there is not. Resources are endless.

This is the best thread I have read in a while. I really liked the part a few pages back where a few people were trying to help explain how to start businesses and utilize the system. I didn't so much like the parts where everyone argues semantics of whether this thing most of us have no control over is terrible or fine.

Why don't we switch it to positivity and have those on here who have deeper knowledge of how to gain a foothold in the system as it is (small businesses, non profits, tax write offs, stocks, etc), help those who are angry, confused, or bitter to help them better their situations, myself included.

If you aren't doing well, you can still be mad at the rottenness of a system based on false scarcity, but having knowledgable internet weed buddies assist you in joining them on the "yea it's fucked up, but I'm not fucked, I'm running my local reality just fine" tip, seems way better than just being like "FUCK, there's no jobs, and college is a debt scam".

Yes these things are true (in my opinion), but we all must still progress.

Keep your intentions tightly focused, stay positive, stay thankful, spread love, respect, and knowledge. Respect and care for the Earth and all of it's children. That is how we can change things, we are smart enough, and we care enough. Let's stop arguing and help each other.

i tryed to explain how to start up a business and until people stop being scared of getting there ass off the couch and start a business of anykind then stay at your level and keep hateing the corporate companys for ripping you off )

Windsblow said:

You have not said anything. how can I counter? It does seem you believe there is a limit to resources which there is not. Resources are endless.

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Oil is endless? Gold is in endless supply? the reason they lend wealth to those who have them is because they are NOT endless. All wealth is ultimately tied to physical resources because somewhere along the line everything is based upon something that is made or transported. Everything that is bought and sold has competition and that competition means that someone will get more resources and someone will get less. That is the nature of competition. Certainly some competition eventualy fades as other things take their place. Horse and buggies don't much compete with the auto but they once did. If there is no competition, there is no product. One of the enabling things in your scenario is the amplification of production methods and worker productivity. Because the worker is actually the only creator of wealth, the more a worker can perform, the more wealth is inherent in his surrounding society but as I said, this wealth pie cannot expand much faster than workers can create new wealth. Hence, as I said, the pie is not easily expandable and for the most part, what is my pocket has been taken from you.

canndo said:

Oil is endless? Gold is in endless supply? the reason they lend wealth to those who have them is because they are NOT endless. All wealth is ultimately tied to physical resources because somewhere along the line everything is based upon something that is made or transported. Everything that is bought and sold has competition and that competition means that someone will get more resources and someone will get less. That is the nature of competition. Certainly some competition eventualy fades as other things take their place. Horse and buggies don't much compete with the auto but they once did. If there is no competition, there is no product. One of the enabling things in your scenario is the amplification of production methods and worker productivity. Because the worker is actually the only creator of wealth, the more a worker can perform, the more wealth is inherent in his surrounding society but as I said, this wealth pie cannot expand much faster than workers can create new wealth. Hence, as I said, the pie is not easily expandable and for the most part, what is my pocket has been taken from you.

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Once again your logic is circular as is all Materialist theories. You say the pie can't expand as fast as the workers can create new wealth? This is predicated on a lie that their is a pie and that wealth is created by labor. A faulty premise that history has proven false time and time again.

Such a sad and limited view a large portion of mankind accepts. When will we learn that life, resources and human inginuity are endless and not confined by any theory trumped up by fearful, jealous and egoistic humans. I am more than Labor and I am more than Matter. Wealth is an abstract that cannot be confined by nor fully defined by some faulty economic theories, especially yours.

Windsblow said:

Such a sad and limited view a large portion of mankind accepts. When will we learn that life, resources and human inginuity are endless and not confined by any theory trumped up by fearful, jealous and egoistic humans. I am more than Labor and I am more than Matter. Wealth is an abstract that cannot be confined by nor fully defined by some faulty economic theories, especially yours.

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Help me understand your idea here. Are you saying people can just will food and whatever else they need to just come into existence? If so do you have any evidence that backs up this claim?

NoDrama said:

Help me understand your idea here. Are you saying people can just will food and whatever else they need to just come into existence? If so do you have any evidence that backs up this claim?

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Nope that is not at all what I am saying..... Well, not really. What I am saying is that I can create wealth through human inginuity and that someone doesn't need loose out because I did so. In fact they benefit. I am saying there is no pie. The pie is a fabrication of Marx and other materialist. I am saying that labor doesn't equal wealth or human worth. I am saying I am a Capitalist and he/she is not.