Wisconsin Revolt

[MrDank007]

I own a corporation, does that make me evil?

No, you have to be publicly traded to be evil. At least that is what the rules were explained to be earlier.

 

[BudMcLovin]

What makes it a union buster is the neutering of the union by taking their collective bargaining right away.....Your tone clarifies your logic and motivations. You sir are jealous. You dont have what they have and that bothers you. ...... "Those damned elitist teachers and janitors getting more than me!!"

Its not their fault that you cant negotiate with your employer. It also isnt their fault they get what they get. Their pay and benefits are NEGOTIATED, someone had to agree to their terms.

No jealousy here. I could have a union job if I wanted. They are not that difficult to get around here. I just don’t like unions. Plus I'm more than capable of negotiating for myself. I think public sector unions should be made illegal, my personal opinion (it’ll never happen I know). In the private sector if the owners are willing o play ball with a union more power to them.

 

[BudMcLovin]

you either young or stupid...not even the military gives you 4 weeks a year vacation (try two ) and do tell what union job gives you 90% of your pay when you retire after 20 years of service...last time I check the military was the quickest route to retirement with a decent base pay with only 20 years...stop talking out the side of your neck makes you look ....and when you care to use numbers make sure you use factual info...it avoids you having to correct yourself on the stupidity you quickly write down without checking... I said you either young or stupid but you can choose both.

My information is factual but I’m not supplying a link because I don’t care to broadcast where I’m from. In my area 2 big unions give 4 weeks paid vacation to start. After every 5 years you get another week paid. I know this for a fact because I have relatives and friends that work for both. They also get 90% after 20 years. After 30 they get 95% plus full health benefits for life. I know this for a fact and don’t give 2 shits if some stupid internet fuck believes me or not.

You talk about how great unions are and you’re not even unionized. Why not? If you’re a union supporter you should start the process tomorrow. Give them some of your money. What would your grandfather say if he knew you were just another greedy capitalist pig.

 

[Carne Seca]

So it's greedy to insist on minimum wage laws, health care benefits, vacation time, sick leave, retirement benefits, and a safe work environment?

good to know.

And, you do realize that the benefits and health care unions provide are 100% paid for by the union workers in Wisconsin (I brought this up previously and was ignored). Most of your "factual information" has no bearing or any relevance to what's going on in Wisconsin. Your union bashing rhetoric is just the same old shit that has been regurgitated from union busting seminars since the early 80's.

And since when has getting 4 weeks vacation been a BAD thing?

 

[UncleBuck]

Mines collaspe without unions? Furthermore, teachers don't work in mines. Prevailing sentiment in the old days thought child labor and deplorable working conditions were normal. Now, we do not.

look a couple replies back where i state that mines do not collapse without unions. however, is it a bad idea to have some entity looking out for the people going into that mine?

"teachers don't work in mines"....MISSING THE POINT. perhaps you are more abreast of 'prevailing sentiment' than i am, but didn't a mine just collapse on nearly 30 miners?

I haven't seen anything showing a correlation between unionized states having better education. Furthermore, you can have decent wage without absurd pensions and benifits. Additionally, union negotiations makes firing shitty teachers problematic. What was your point or was it just a steamy queef?

absurd benefits...like health care? ABSURD.

absurd pensions...that require you to work for decades to earn? ABSURD.

my point, seemingly purposely ignored by you, is that education requires an investment, and it pays itself back many times over. i'll say it again in case you missed it: if you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

Of course you don't. Budgets aren't real. Just shake the money tree harder right? At what level of broke would you say it hasn't worked? Also, we aren't talking minimum wage with no benifits. Drama queen rhetoric...

now you are just being purposely obtuse. i know budgets are real. so do the public sector unions in wisconsin. WHICH IS WHY THEY HAVE AGREED TO EVERY FINANCIAL CONCESSION.

you are the one now 'shaking the money tree', off the backs of teachers and nurses that cal least afford it and did not cause the situation.

it doesn't matter 'what level of broke' unless you can back up your queefy claim that public sector unions put wisconsin in its budget shortfall.

no way it was $117 million dollars worth of tax breaks to corporations passed by the current governor....that would be absurd.

take from the poor, give to the rich. you are a modern day republican version of robin hood, bro.

 

[redivider]

Scott Walker is standing his ground. this guy has balls. Obama and his team could learn a little from him.

Today he said: I do not want to have lay-offs.

he just wants to have them without the Union putting up a fight, which is what will happen if unions in wisconsin loose their rights.

this is getting ugly. threatening the livelihood of 1500 hard-working americans in the name of politics is just wrong.


he has balls... i'll give him that......

 

[LBSparky]

For one thing the retirement is being funded by the workers 100%. It would be difficult to make them pay more.
Governor Scott Walker gave a tax break to the wealthy that is pretty close to the deficit numbers he is complaining about.
If he just wanted the workers to contribute more to their health care that would have NOTHING to do with the ability of collective bargaining.
If he would drop the Union undermining/collective bargaining war people would probably stop fighting him.

 

[NoDrama]

For one thing the retirement is being funded by the workers 100%. It would be difficult to make them pay more.
Governor Scott Walker gave a tax break to the wealthy that is pretty close to the deficit numbers he is complaining about.
If he just wanted the workers to contribute more to their health care that would have NOTHING to do with the ability of collective bargaining.
If he would drop the Union undermining/collective bargaining war people would probably stop fighting him.

WRONG!! The teachers pension ( Retirement) is 97% paid for by the public (that's you and me).

 

[Carne Seca]

WRONG!! The teachers pension ( Retirement) is 97% paid for by the public (that's you and me).

WRONG!! The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee Pensions

 

[londonfog]

I like links

 

[Carthoris]

based on my observation, he is simply throwing a temper tantrum because he was completely unable to support his assertion that public sector unions put the state of wisconsin in debt.

and now he is crying like a baby.

quit your crying, put on your man pants, and produce an argument. ya crybaby.

View attachment 1472172

I guess it depends on your definition of debt. If you pay regular workers 20k in salary to be janitors, and union workers 30k in salary then 30k in benefits. You just threw away 10k for what? Union employees don't do better jobs - it isn't like they are special people. That extra money is cost that is unneeded. It becomes debt when democrats decide more should be given than what there is to give.

Let me save you the effort of a response.

"BUT BUT BUT PEOPLE DESERVE TO MAKE SUCH AND SUCH AND BE ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES!!!!!"

Yes, they do! If they aren't lazy ass janitors who dropped out of school, have no eduction, and have no plan for the future. Why do you think someone who goes to school for 4 years and has a plan and works to improve their lives should be punished for it to help pay for someone who is an idiot and obviously doesn't care how they live since they have no plan or drive to change it? Teachers make an average of 50k more or less in Wisconsin. They don't work 12 months. If they worked 12 months like the rest of us they would make more like 60k+. Teaching is mon-fri, all weekends and holidays off. As I sit here remembering the hundreds of pages of long subtraction that my teachers got paid that much to give me - I think we need to be realistic about exactly what the teachers do. I think that computers with learning programs in cubicles could replace many teachers. They spend more time baby sitting and dealing with BS than teaching.

 

[Carthoris]

One of the auto parts manufactures around michigan, I forget which... Closed up shop for 2 years to get away from paying decent wages/unions. After 2 years, they opened up shop and strictly use temp agencies to hire the same goddamn skilled workers, and now only have to pay them minimum wage. How do you feel about that? Does that seem ethical to you?

I heard from my brothers cousins wife that the government has probes in your butt. Did you even bother to think about what you just said? "I don't know what Im talking about but this happened for sure, I just don't know when or where... or who.. or why... or what was that other one.. or yea! how"

 

[Carthoris]

WRONG!! The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee Pensions

Seriously? That is a steaming load. Not only are unionized workers being payed more than they are worth on the market - they have more benefits. Thats BS. They should be payed in line with normal workers of the same caliber and with the same amount of training. The entire premise of that link is that "Well, they'd be making 80k a year if they weren't getting those benefits" more or less. Being union doesn't make you a better teacher - if it does, then you are a douche to begin with.

 

[Mike Young]

I heard from my brothers cousins wife that the government has probes in your butt. Did you even bother to think about what you just said? "I don't know what Im talking about but this happened for sure, I just don't know when or where... or who.. or why... or what was that other one.. or yea! how"

So you're telling me you're a janitor that get's paid less then 20k per year? And get shitty benefits? I'm sorry.

You need to read the thread before you come in here and think you are gonna get some kind of argument. Almost everything you've "brought to light" has been covered.

 

[londonfog]

My information is factual but I’m not supplying a link because I don’t care to broadcast where I’m from. In my area 2 big unions give 4 weeks paid vacation to start. After every 5 years you get another week paid. I know this for a fact because I have relatives and friends that work for both. They also get 90% after 20 years. After 30 they get 95% plus full health benefits for life. I know this for a fact and don’t give 2 shits if some stupid internet fuck believes me or not.
You talk about how great unions are and you’re not even unionized. Why not? If you’re a union supporter you should start the process tomorrow. Give them some of your money. What would your grandfather say if he knew you were just another greedy capitalist pig.

Dude I'm an employer..It would be up to my employees to start a union..geezzzz....and take the time to read the thread before you start pecking away with your prick grabbers...post #47 I stated how I feel about unions and never was the word "great" used... Now what I find very funny is how you have relatives and friends who have union jobs and you bash the hell out of them..are you mad because they didn't hire your dumb azz...Now understand this clearly... The struggle that I have seen my family and others go thru because companies did not want to do right by there workers is the reason I support GOOD unions..Now because I have seen the struggle my family and others go thru in the past with companies who didn't do right by their workers make me as an employer strive to do whats right by workers...think you can understand that ?????? if not then wait for your Mother to wake up and ask her to explain it to you..

 

[UncleBuck]

I...If they aren't lazy ass janitors who dropped out of school, have no eduction, and have no plan for the future. Why do you think someone who goes to school for 4 years and has a plan and works to improve their lives should be punished for it to help pay for someone who is an idiot and obviously doesn't care how they live since they have no plan or drive to change it?

dude, what do you think teachers and nurses are? they go to school for 4 years. they have plans, they work to improve their lives. why should they have to make any sacrifice to help fix a budget situation that they did not cause?

Teachers make an average of 50k more or less in Wisconsin. They don't work 12 months. If they worked 12 months like the rest of us they would make more like 60k+. Teaching is mon-fri, all weekends and holidays off.

but they do not make 60k+, they make 50k. and they work when they get home, on their weekends, on their holidays, and in the summer.

what is your proposal, to pay teachers less? that would be a great way to attract shittier teachers. they can teach your kids, not mine.

As I sit here remembering the hundreds of pages of long subtraction that my teachers got paid that much to give me - I think we need to be realistic about exactly what the teachers do. I think that computers with learning programs in cubicles could replace many teachers. They spend more time baby sitting and dealing with BS than teaching.

as i sit here remembering how my professor in 'writing for the professions' taught me how to compose superb resumes and cover letters and all the jobs that has led to over the years, i can not help but feel sorry that you are so pissy about having been taught basic arithmetic.

half of school's purpose is socialization and conformity, like it or not. as individualistic as we may be, conformity and socialization allow us to get by in society without acting like savages straight out of lord of the flies.

 

[beardo]

Good teachers deserve raises and should be paid according to how well they teach and how well their students do. the worst teachers should be fired and the good and great teachers should be paid a lot more but not have big pensions

 

[MrDank007]

Funny how the Forbes article goes to expose the BIG LIE and then is forced to make the update that is at the core of the issue.

UPDATE: Since this post was published earlier today, many commenters have made the point that, while it is true that it is state employees’ own money that funds the pension plan, when the pension plan comes up short it is up to the taxpayer to make up the difference.

There is some truth in this – but not as much as many seem to think. Because the pension plan is a defined benefit plan – requiring the state to pay the agreed benefit for however long the employee may live in retirement- if the employee lives longer than the actuarial plan anticipated, the taxpayer is on the hook for the pay-outs during the longer life.
But is this the fault of the state employees? The pension agreements are the result of collective bargaining. That means that the state has every opportunity to properly calculate the anticipated lifespan and then add on some margin for error. What’s more, the losses taken by the pension funds over the past few years can hardly be blamed on the employees.

As a result, the taxpayers do not contribute to the public employee pension programs so much as serve as insurers. If their elected officials have been sloppy , the taxpayers must stand behind it.

The article then goes onto say there is $1 Trillion gap.
So when my 401k got cut in half when the market went to shit, it was really Uncle Sam's responsiblity to pick up the loss. This is not a decent wage problem...this is an impractical clusterfuck. Buck, sorry I didn't bat another queef over the net directly to you, but clearly $117MM in tax cuts wasn't enough...and again close the loopholes so we can tackle the actual issue. If they want to have a pension, the gov should not have to guarantee it. You play in the market at your own risk.

 

[UncleBuck]

So when my 401k got cut in half when the market went to shit, it was really Uncle Sam's responsiblity to pick up the loss. This is not a decent wage problem...this is an impractical clusterfuck... ....If they want to have a pension, the gov should not have to guarantee it. You play in the market at your own risk.

401Ks and pensions are two very different things.

when we place our money in a 401k, there are no promises.

when you sign a contract, that is a promise.

when people point blame at the economy we are in, we look at the asshats on wall street, the politicos that passed horrible laws, and other factors.

i don't recall anyone pointing the finger at teachers and nurses and snow plow drivers...because they are not the cause of the rough economy. yet they are willing to sacrifice and take their lumps anyway.

they have agreed to every financial concession. some bunch of goons those unions are.

if anyone is causing an impractical clusterfuck, it is the governor in the back pocket of the koch brothers, unwilling to compromise or sacrifice himself. he could have every budgetary concern he wants if he just compromised with these teachers who are willing to sacrifice 10% of their whopping 50k salaries.

there is a clear compromise that SHOULD satisfy all parties. if you don't see this, i really pity you.

 

[BudMcLovin]

if not then wait for your Mother to wake up and ask her to explain it to you..

I'll ask yours tonight when I see her