Republican Does Not Mean Conservative

[wineart]

I think the conservative, right wing, liberal, progressive are just labels that one is attracted to based upon what it was called when they were influenced. I am betting more people that call themselves conservative are more Libertarian with fiscal conservative ideals than they are Republican. As picking a clown to run the country I would rather have a Ron Paul type, too bad he looks Neo-Nazi (like Artie Shaw's Nazi character on "Laugh In").

 

[BFSKINNER]

The republican political position is bent over, taking it in the ass from Mobile Gas ( or BP, Walmart, McDonalds Phillip Morris...)

Any "conservative" who votes republican has no brain.

 

[hazorazo]

I disagree that "everybody" is better off with a Police force...think about it.

Unless you think incarcerating people for weed is a good thing.


I disagree that everybody is better off with an army. Ever seen flies buzzing around an innocent "collateral damage" bloated corpse of a mother trying to shield her children in a war zone ? You wouldn't like it.

Libraries are nice. Forcing people to pay for them that don't use the library isn't nice. Libraries aren't "free" either, somebody has to pay for them.

Of course I can't really speak for "everybody" , I can only speak for myself.

I just have to say that I do not care if you agree or not that we need to pay for libraries, schools, roads, etc. Honestly, you and your ilk do not want to pay for anything you do not use. So I would say you have no concept of "society". You need to go up in the hills, build your own cabin, grow your own veggies and livestock and get off of electricity (society produces and pays for this and keeps your costs down), get off of public water (hope you like boiling every bit you ingest), and NEVER come into town FOR ANYTHING, because then you would be using OUR roads, hospitals, schools, churches, supermarkets, water, electricity, etc.

Oh, and don't forget, we don't use horses and buggies any more, so we will have to charge you extra for the poop cleanup from your horse and the damage you do to OUR city. Us people who care about our cities and citizens do not have time for you, you freaking BUM.

I bet you would sue if the police did not come to your house, even though you only wanted to pay for them when you were a victim.

 

[doc111]

Geez! What is it with people feeling the need to call people names for no reason?

 

[Rob Roy]

I just have to say that I do not care if you agree or not that we need to pay for libraries, schools, roads, etc. Honestly, you and your ilk do not want to pay for anything you do not use. So I would say you have no concept of "society". You need to go up in the hills, build your own cabin, grow your own veggies and livestock and get off of electricity (society produces and pays for this and keeps your costs down), get off of public water (hope you like boiling every bit you ingest), and NEVER come into town FOR ANYTHING, because then you would be using OUR roads, hospitals, schools, churches, supermarkets, water, electricity, etc.

Oh, and don't forget, we don't use horses and buggies any more, so we will have to charge you extra for the poop cleanup from your horse and the damage you do to OUR city. Us people who care about our cities and citizens do not have time for you, you freaking BUM.

I bet you would sue if the police did not come to your house, even though you only wanted to pay for them when you were a victim.

I respect your right to your opinion. I respect your right to cooperate with any of your friends and create the kind of society you want.
Why is it that you don't reciprocate that when you insist all must abide by "your" concept of what society should be? You seem very controlling and insecure. Let me guess..."public servant" living on stolen funds?

As far as not paying for anything I don't use, you have mischaracterized me. I certainly don't like to be extorted, who does? I do spend a good bit of time and money helping others on a voluntary basis though.

Live in the hills in a cabin, raise my own food? Good idea. Already do.

Sue the police if they didn't come when I call them? WTF? WHO is dumb enough to call the police?

Anyway bet you don't ever answer me why you believe it's okay to initiate force.

 

[hazorazo]

I respect your right to your opinion. I respect your right to cooperate with any of your friends and create the kind of society you want.
Why is it that you don't reciprocate that when you insist all must abide by "your" concept of what society should be? You seem very controlling and insecure. Let me guess..."public servant" living on stolen funds?

As far as not paying for anything I don't use, you have mischaracterized me. I certainly don't like to be extorted, who does? I do spend a good bit of time and money helping others on a voluntary basis though.

Live in the hills in a cabin, raise my own food? Good idea. Already do.

Sue the police if they didn't come when I call them? WTF? WHO is dumb enough to call the police?

Anyway bet you don't ever answer me why you believe it's okay to initiate force.

Your last sentence does not make any sense. Go back and ask yourself what I said about "initiating force"?

And I had to ask myself, does this dude classify taxes as extortion? Better go look up the word extortion, and make sure you are not misusing that word.

It just sounds like you do not want to pay for anything in taxes, but yet you live here in the US, getting to use just as much of what you pay for as we do. Have I ever been on welfare? NO. Does that mean I should not pay a little in taxes to help the less fortunate, even if a small percentage of them take advantage of the system? I SHOULD pay those taxes, because one day, someone I love may need those social programs, or that military, or those police.

Point is that none of us get to use all the programs we pay for. Hopefully we use very few of them, if we are successful at making money. But the need for those programs does not cease to exist, just because YOU see no need to pay for them.

 

[NoDrama]

Your last sentence does not make any sense. Go back and ask yourself what I said about "initiating force"?

And I had to ask myself, does this dude classify taxes as extortion? Better go look up the word extortion, and make sure you are not misusing that word.

It just sounds like you do not want to pay for anything in taxes, but yet you live here in the US, getting to use just as much of what you pay for as we do. Have I ever been on welfare? NO. Does that mean I should not pay a little in taxes to help the less fortunate, even if a small percentage of them take advantage of the system? I SHOULD pay those taxes, because one day, someone I love may need those social programs, or that military, or those police.

Point is that none of us get to use all the programs we pay for. Hopefully we use very few of them, if we are successful at making money. But the need for those programs does not cease to exist, just because YOU see no need to pay for them.

If you are for income taxation, then you are for forced initiation of violence when some person does not pay their taxes. If you don't pay does the IRS leave you alone? Fuck no they come after you with a vengeance and then try to reduce you to nothing just to show you that you should never try to fight the IRS. You will pay taxes or you WILL go to Jail, if you resist you WILL be killed. Initiation of force, which you are wholeheartedly for.

 

[UncleBuck]

You will pay taxes or you WILL go to Jail, if you resist you WILL be killed. Initiation of force, which you are wholeheartedly for.

that is the most hyperbolic statement ever made in perpetuity throughout the universe.

it is also patently FALSE, to boot.

should the government mail everyone a survey asking them if they want to pay taxes or opt out?

listening to you and rob roy talk makes me cringe at the naivete and self-centered persecution complex you both must have.

oh, boo hoo, you have to pay your taxes. *shock* *gasp* you guys are such fucking victims...BOO FUCKING HOO

 

[hazorazo]

If you are for income taxation, then you are for forced initiation of violence when some person does not pay their taxes. If you don't pay does the IRS leave you alone? Fuck no they come after you with a vengeance and then try to reduce you to nothing just to show you that you should never try to fight the IRS. You will pay taxes or you WILL go to Jail, if you resist you WILL be killed. Initiation of force, which you are wholeheartedly for.

A little dramatic for someone named Nodrama. Tell me what is the VIOLENCE? IRS does not kill people, they may jail you if you do not pay a lot of taxes. The fact remains that you are a free person, and you can move to a country that more suits your low tax needs. Problem is, that you will not make any money in those countries that have low taxes, and you will lose a lot of the freedom you came to enjoy here in the states.

Just keep telling yourself that you will die if you do not pay taxes. Although reality may have to set in sometime. Are you having problems paying your taxes, Nodrama? If you are, then make up a payment schedule with them. If you are not, then stop whining, there are folks with real problems out there.

 

[Rob Roy]

Your last sentence does not make any sense. Go back and ask yourself what I said about "initiating force"?

And I had to ask myself, does this dude classify taxes as extortion? Better go look up the word extortion, and make sure you are not misusing that word.

It just sounds like you do not want to pay for anything in taxes, but yet you live here in the US, getting to use just as much of what you pay for as we do. Have I ever been on welfare? NO. Does that mean I should not pay a little in taxes to help the less fortunate, even if a small percentage of them take advantage of the system? I SHOULD pay those taxes, because one day, someone I love may need those social programs, or that military, or those police.

Point is that none of us get to use all the programs we pay for. Hopefully we use very few of them, if we are successful at making money. But the need for those programs does not cease to exist, just because YOU see no need to pay for them.

Just because you fail to recognize or acknowledge that you advocate inititiating force doesn't mean that you don't.
Maybe you just haven't thought it through or maybe you will continue rationalizing, BUT it's not my opinion you are arguing with. You are attempting to deny something when the evidence favors my argument, what you are attempting to argue against is the truth. Good luck there.

The meaning of a word, extortion doesn't somehow change when the perpetrator, you or government, extorts under the color of law. The shield of legality has been used to attempt to justify slavery and incarcerating people for growing a plant. Carving out exceptions for government extortion to "not be extortion" because of a legal exception is illogical and intellectual sloth.

I've never denied you the privelege of helping anyone, if you feel you SHOULD pay "those taxes" go for it. If you MUST or another entity will use force against you...guess what? That is the definition of extortion.

Programs? You speak of programs and the need for them to exist. How so? Can charity only exist because it must somehow be parasitically administered thru government? If you feel the need for charity, why do you need government...why not just go do it?

Is it because you fear others like you would not willingly help others and you or your government must force compliance, through your um "not extortion" voluntary but really "not voluntary" programs?

 

[Rob Roy]

that is the most hyperbolic statement ever made in perpetuity throughout the universe.

it is also patently FALSE, to boot.

should the government mail everyone a survey asking them if they want to pay taxes or opt out?

listening to you and rob roy talk makes me cringe at the naivete and self-centered persecution complex you both must have.

oh, boo hoo, you have to pay your taxes. *shock* *gasp* you guys are such fucking victims...BOO FUCKING HOO

We've been down this path before. Looks like rather than taking the debate to it's intellectual conclusion, backed by logic, you went for your signature move, to obfuscate and insult. I'm beginning to question what you are still doing here when so many people have put the same observations about your techniques forward. Do you flip the chess board over too when it is apparent you are about to be check mated? I'm not trying to insult you, but I think it's time you took a step back and grew up.

 

[UncleBuck]

We've been down this path before. Looks like rather than taking the debate to it's intellectual conclusion, backed by logic, you went for your signature move, to obfuscate and insult. I'm beginning to question what you are still doing here when so many people have put the same observations about your techniques forward. Do you flip the chess board over too when it is apparent you are about to be check mated? I'm not trying to insult you, but I think it's time you took a step back and grew up.

i think the same thing about you: GROW UP. if you have such a huge fucking problem with paying taxes, leave. just go. you won't find many places without taxes though. the only certain things in life are death and taxes.

you know who "initiated force" (the most dishonest way of expressing the idea of taxes)? WE THE PEOPLE. we the people did it.

you know who laid the groundwork for we the people to "initiate force"? the founding fathers.

you know that no king decreed taxes be paid. you know that no dictator decreed that taxes be paid. you know that it was we the people, working within the constructs of the documents laid out by our founding fathers.

so if you want to be mad at anyone, be mad at 'we the people', the founding fathers, and the constitution.

and if you think my valid observations of your victim mentality and persecution complex are insulting, go cry in a corner. it's the image you give me to work with.

 

[NoDrama]

How many years did the USA survive without an income tax? I realize there need to be SOME taxes, but I OWN MY LABOR, the government does not. We only need to give government enough money to sustain an army to DEFEND the USA, Protect the rights of all citizens and Enforce laws and contracts. Thats all we need it for, nothing else, no big tit you can suck on, no free passes, no gubbamint cheeze. No giant mommy to pat your boo boo and tell you its gonna be alright. The income tax doesn't even pay for any of those things you liberals always bandy about as proof of your immaculately concepted Utopian dream anyway. Roads and welfare and clothes for the poor, streetlamps and FEMA and DHS and TSA and any other acronym you can make up, im sure Government has an office for it. Well guess what? Your income tax doesn't pay for any of that shit. Nope, your income tax is primarily used to pay for all the fucking interest on all those fucking US Govt Bonds we have used to borrow money from the whole world. Guess how they get the money to create new highways and bridges and pay the stuipid post office? They BORROW all that money by doing guess what? Selling Us Gov't Bonds!!! and then that just makes yours and my tax burden even GREATER! A self defeating prophesy, a serpent eating its own tail. Any time they get in a bit of trouble, they increase the debt ceiling and just crank out more debt day after day after day. If the US took control and went by the US Constitution we would get rid of the Fed and replace their notes with real dollars created by the government at ZERO interest. We wouldn't need any income tax to pay all the interest because there would be no interest.

 

[UncleBuck]

How many years did the USA survive without an income tax?

regale me, if you would, with what life expectancy and literacy rates (especially among the non-wealthy) were like during those days. the "good ol' days"...ha.

I realize there need to be SOME taxes, but I OWN MY LABOR, the government does not. We only need to give government enough money to sustain an army to DEFEND the USA, Protect the rights of all citizens and Enforce laws and contracts. Thats all we need it for, nothing else, no big tit you can suck on, no free passes, no gubbamint cheeze. No giant mommy to pat your boo boo and tell you its gonna be alright. The income tax doesn't even pay for any of those things you liberals always bandy about as proof of your immaculately concepted Utopian dream anyway. Roads and welfare and clothes for the poor, streetlamps and FEMA and DHS and TSA and any other acronym you can make up, im sure Government has an office for it. Well guess what? Your income tax doesn't pay for any of that shit. Nope, your income tax is primarily used to pay for all the fucking interest on all those fucking US Govt Bonds we have used to borrow money from the whole world. Guess how they get the money to create new highways and bridges and pay the stuipid post office? They BORROW all that money by doing guess what? Selling Us Gov't Bonds!!! and then that just makes yours and my tax burden even GREATER! A self defeating prophesy, a serpent eating its own tail. Any time they get in a bit of trouble, they increase the debt ceiling and just crank out more debt day after day after day. If the US took control and went by the US Constitution we would get rid of the Fed and replace their notes with real dollars created by the government at ZERO interest. We wouldn't need any income tax to pay all the interest because their would be no interest.

TL;DR

just kidding

pipe dream. won't ever happen. better to figure out the best way forward instead.

 

[medicineman]

spending money on social programs is one of the cornerstones of american liberalism. redistributing the money of productive americans in any but the most necessary forms is contrary to conservative tenets. "society in general" is just another way of saying "the majority", the screeching mob that cares nothing for the rule of law, only for its own desires. that mob is precisely what our government was set up to protect the individual from. on the other hand, handing out our tax money to special interests and major business is still just another form of redistribution and is by no means within the sphere of conservative concepts.

though compassion should inform the activities of our government, it should never be the driving force behind legislation. government is not a charitable organization, it is merely the body that allows the people the opportunity to determine their own destinies by protecting them from any infringement on their rights by others.

You are such a lovable character, So warn and fuzzy.

 

[Rob Roy]

i think the same thing about you: GROW UP. if you have such a huge fucking problem with paying taxes, leave. just go. you won't find many places without taxes though. the only certain things in life are death and taxes.

you know who "initiated force" (the most dishonest way of expressing the idea of taxes)? WE THE PEOPLE. we the people did it.

you know who laid the groundwork for we the people to "initiate force"? the founding fathers.

you know that no king decreed taxes be paid. you know that no dictator decreed that taxes be paid. you know that it was we the people, working within the constructs of the documents laid out by our founding fathers.

so if you want to be mad at anyone, be mad at 'we the people', the founding fathers, and the constitution.

and if you think my valid observations of your victim mentality and persecution complex are insulting, go cry in a corner. it's the image you give me to work with.

You think the same about me? How so that I flip game boards over when I'm about to lose, as I suggested your behavior reminds me of?
Hmm.... I generally do pretty well at chess, when I do lose I congratulate my opponent. I'm a big advocate of civility and being a good sport.

The only certain things in life are death and taxes? Gee, that's original.

So because other countries initiate force, and a bunch of old dead white guys did too, a person must accept it here or leave? That's charitable.

Mad at someone? Are you implying I'm mad at you because I challenged you to stick to intellectual arguments rather than insults? Interesting.

My image? My persecution complex? Okay prove that the things I rail on about don't happen or aren't true. Stop rationalizing and running to insults when your intellect fails you or the cognitive dissonance monster frightens you.

Cry in a corner? Nope not me. My goals here are to present truth, learn and expose the gun in the room. Without meaning to be condescending I'm trying to encourage others to consider that peaceful and consensual transactions are better than those backed by force. Morally better.

I don't think we share the same methods and I called you on it. You can have the corner...and don't forget to pick up the chess pieces off the floor okay?

 

[Dan Kone]

How many years did the USA survive without an income tax? I realize there need to be SOME taxes, but I OWN MY LABOR, the government does not. We only need to give government enough money to sustain an army to DEFEND the USA, Protect the rights of all citizens and Enforce laws and contracts. Thats all we need it for, nothing else.

We don't need roads? We don't need fire depts? We don't need schools? We don't need planning depts? We don't need environmental protections? We don't need safe food? Really? I kinda like having those things.

 

[NoDrama]

A little dramatic for someone named Nodrama.

Logical Fallacy, appeal to ridicule.

Tell me what is the VIOLENCE? IRS does not kill people, they may jail you if you do not pay a lot of taxes.

And what happens if you refuse to be jailed, as you see it you have done nothing wrong, what if you try to defend your self from the strong arm of the law? You get shot and killed, or you get away after which they put you on a list and the feds have a nation wide manhunt for your ass. Guess how many IRS agents carry sidearms? Guess? Its alot more than you think, so now what you think about the IRS does not use force?

The fact remains that you are a free person, and you can move to a country that more suits your low tax needs. Problem is, that you will not make any money in those countries that have low taxes, and you will lose a lot of the freedom you came to enjoy here in the states.

Totally wrong and ill informed. You can move wherever you like and work wherever you want, for a LIMITED time, you still have to pay the US income tax, no matter where you are or where you go. You can't just get up one day and expatriate yourself you know, something like that takes 3-5 years and plenty of fees and bureaucratic BS. then there is getting a work visa from the host country you want to become a citizen of, might take years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a citizenship, depends on the country. LOL you just try and move away and not pay the IRS its taxes, go ahead see how fast they freeze your overseas accounts and just take the money. You people that just say" If you don't like it you can just leave" Yall are a bunch of morons. Go and ask an Iraqi or Afghani the same thing. "If you don't like it then just leave" . Feel like an idiot yet? Ask a Jew who survived the Holocaust why he didn't just leave, Ask Tiger Woods why he didn't just leave. I have a lot invested into this country I call HOME, I want it to be better, not disabled by the crushing weight of extreme debt and a slave attitude about how we should proliferate this terrible idea of having an all powerful state take care of us and shield us from all harm.

Just keep telling yourself that you will die if you do not pay taxes. Although reality may have to set in sometime. Are you having problems paying your taxes, Nodrama? If you are, then make up a payment schedule with them. If you are not, then stop whining, there are folks with real problems out there.

I pay all my taxes like a good little slave, although I take maximum advantage of all the legal accounting tricks and whatnot so that my actual taxes paid in is not enough to concern ones self with.

 

[NoDrama]

We don't need roads?

The States fund plenty of roads.

We don't need fire depts? We don't need schools? We don't need planning depts?

All funded by property taxes, try again.

We don't need environmental protections?

state matter

We don't need safe food? Really? I kinda like having those things.

Sure we need safe food, the USA already has plenty of laws that do those kinds of things, what we don't need is gestapo tactics to force other to eat what the government decides is good for you or not. Its my fucking body and I'll do what I want with it, get your godamn nose outta my bidness. When you rely on government to provide all your safety for you you have become a slave, you aren't free unless you live life by your terms, not some politician 2000 miles away who's life has been completely different from yours from the day he was born, yet your gonna let him make all the decisions for you. If we need government to save us from safe food all i want to know is, how did you survive so long if you haven't been eating safe food all this time? Are you sure you need a few more tax funded agencies to save you from something you haven't ever had the displeasure of experiencing? If I told you that you were hundreds of times more likely to be struck dead by lightning than to eat a shit laced e coli sandwich would you believe me? Think Government could save you from lightning?

 

[UncleBuck]

You think the same about me? How so that I flip game boards over when I'm about to lose, as I suggested your behavior reminds me of?
Hmm.... I generally do pretty well at chess, when I do lose I congratulate my opponent. I'm a big advocate of civility and being a good sport.

you said that if you don't pay the fine for the individual mandate the government will kill you, then you said check mate. you obviously suck at playing chess.

The only certain things in life are death and taxes? Gee, that's original.

is that a thinly veiled insult? *gasp* i thought you were too good for those.

So because other countries initiate force, and a bunch of old dead white guys did too, a person must accept it here or leave? That's charitable.

just pointing out the facts of the reality we both live in. well, maybe not both of us...you seem to be kinda out there at times.

Mad at someone? Are you implying I'm mad at you because I challenged you to stick to intellectual arguments rather than insults? Interesting.

no, i am not implying you are mad at me. i am simply directing you to the people who made it possible for you to be taxed without your consent...we the people, the founding fathers, the constitution they wrote.

My image? My persecution complex? Okay prove that the things I rail on about don't happen or aren't true. Stop rationalizing and running to insults when your intellect fails you or the cognitive dissonance monster frightens you.

you rail on about how the government will kill you if you don't pay your taxes.

get real. you clearly have a persecution complex and a tendency to hyperbole.

Cry in a corner? Nope not me. My goals here are to present truth, learn and expose the gun in the room. Without meaning to be condescending I'm trying to encourage others to consider that peaceful and consensual transactions are better than those backed by force. Morally better.

my goal is to present historically accurate facts, learn and expose the rube in the room. and get some lulz while i'm at it. thanks for the lulz.

I don't think we share the same methods and I called you on it. You can have the corner...and don't forget to pick up the chess pieces off the floor okay?

i am certain we don't share the same methods. you believe in telling people the government will kill you if you don't pay taxes. i believe in telling you of the historical run down of how it came about that you are taxed without your direct consent. and how you are giving the government your indirect consent to tax you by continuing to live among society and take advantage of all the goodies that society has to offer.

if you were serious at all, you would abscond to the woods and never pay taxes again.