Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
List of billionaires who've donated to 2020 Democratic campaigns;
Sanders is the strongest candidate against Trump in 2020
- Thread starter Padawanbater2
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londonfog
Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
I am pretty sure that you don't have a issue tuning out trolls though.
You will find the difference between people and trolls eventually if you stick around here long enough. Too many people are unable to tune out the trolling and have a conversation. They should be quick to ignore. For years people have been getting spammed with propaganda and have a hard enough time seeing strait without more noise confusing them. Lets the people trolling trolls deal with the nonsense, understanding what is going on is more important.
If he wins the Democratic nomination I will vote for the guy. But he is pushed by Russia for a reason, and it is not because he is the best one for America.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
All Americans.
But funny enough leaving out this rich guy:
I will still vote for the Bern if he is nominated, but your trying to paint everyone not left of Bernie as right is exactly what the Russians want done. Creating a bubble left of Bernie is where the voter suppression comes into play.
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
Who is left of Sanders?
I'm not trying to paint anything, Sanders is the most progressive candidate in the race, that's a fact. I'm a progressive who supports the majority of his policy positions, that's why I support his campaign
If you accept political donations from billionaires, you will owe them. Billionaires don't donate to politicians for no reason, and they don't donate to Bernie Sanders because they know he won't accept it. He won't accept it because he believes in what he says about campaign finance reform and the corrupting influence of money in American politics
I'm not trying to paint anything, Sanders is the most progressive candidate in the race, that's a fact. I'm a progressive who supports the majority of his policy positions, that's why I support his campaign
If you accept political donations from billionaires, you will owe them. Billionaires don't donate to politicians for no reason, and they don't donate to Bernie Sanders because they know he won't accept it. He won't accept it because he believes in what he says about campaign finance reform and the corrupting influence of money in American politics
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
Lots of people, I am not just saying politicians. But people like yourself saying that Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton is a Republican, when he has fought for Democratic values for close to 50 years. I get called a Republican by people all the time when they run out of understanding of a subject. Too many people are so quick to pick a team and get locked in by talking shit about the rest like they are enemies. This is what we need to move past in this election, and is why we have Trump.
I am glad that you have someone to identify with running in the Democratic presidential nominee race. That is what happens when a party has the goal of governing for the entire country and not just a portion. Like I have said, if he wins the nomination I will vote for him, he is not my enemy. But he needs to understand that Trump and his foreign dictator friends have made this election him and his supporters vs everyone else who he has deemed is the enemy, and if he is not going to win to help lift up his Democratic opponents over Trump and not tear them down like he did for far too long in 2016.
I disagree, unless they were taking out a loan, they don't owe the people who donate to them, anything other than sticking to their campaign values. The battle against the rich is so destructive for us. Just because someone is successful, or had rich parents does not make them an enemy. They have different perspectives and are entitled to voice them and support who they like.
Are you talking about 2016, or something new? In 2016, they pushed for him as a means of reducing support for Hillary, which was for the purpose of getting the dotard in place, because the dotard is bad for America. If it's happening again, it's not because they actually want him to win, imo.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
I look at it more from how they split the groups of voters. Bernie is just a place holder to keep the voters who think everything is corrupt until he loses and they can flip them to vote/supression campaign depending on what they fall for.
And unfortunately I don't have any inside information or anything so I really don't know if the Russians were pushing Bernie just because of Hillary, or if they had many reasons one of which might be dirt on him. But I guess the most likely with Bernie is that he is a self proclaimed socialist who will not get any support for his ideas by people doing the work to get it done.
I'd think that the people who are able to actually do anything, are probably very wealthy, and at least in regard to the US, wealthy people aren't a fan of Bernie. My opinion is that greed is the biggest problem in politics and Bernie threatens that and that's something I like. I also think the concerns for socialism are somewhat valid, but don't think it's even possible to reshape America into anything remotely resembling a socialist nation in two terms. His version is just a bit more socialist than what we currently are and in reality he wouldn't be able to achieve half of what he wants. No president ever crushes it because the framework is such that they can't.
londonfog
Well-Known Member
Why do you want Bernie dead sooner than he is suppose to be ? Would you not want to see him alive fishing in home number 3 by the lake ? Maybe writing a book or two. Why do you want Bernie dead ?
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
What is your point? That you can copy and paste real good?
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Sanders is about making empty campaign promises, not progress. Warren is the real progressive. Neither are particularly "left".
You made a leap of faith about campaign contributions. I get the you are blinded by cynicism and so can't see any other reason than the one you gave why a billionaire would make a donation and a candidate would accept it. If you want to reform campaign financing, change the laws.
Did you know that the last time a measure to reform campaign finances laws was up for a vote in the Senate, every Democratic Senator voted to support it and every Republican voted to support filibuster and stopped it? This makes your argument look stupid.
Vote Democrats in.
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Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
I didn't say Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton are Republicans, I said they're establishment Democrats. They represent a wing of the Democratic party that is largely older and affluent and support third way economic policies that progressives believe lead to the kind of extreme disparity in income and wealth that we saw before the great depression and are now seeing today.
Joe Biden has not fought for Democratic values for close to 50 years. Look at his record, the 94 crime bill that resulted in a disproportionate number of minorities being locked up and serving longer prison sentences than their white counterparts, he is adamantly against the legalization of marijuana and has earned a reputation as a "drug warrior" in the war on drugs, a failed policy based in racism created by the Nixon administration, he supported George W. Bush's "no child left behind act", he supported the Hyde Amendment until June this year, he voted against gay people serving in the military and voted in support of the "defense of marriage act" effectively prohibiting same sex marriage, he supported the "secure fence act" 10 years before Trump supported a wall, he voted in support of the "USA patriot act", and in support of the war in Iraq, he fought against members of the military, students, and people facing bankruptcy due to medical debt, he supported NAFTA, he opposes universal healthcare, he supports a balanced budget amendment, he supports welfare "reform", his foreign policy is a complete disaster and he unyieldingly supports the right wing Likud party in Israel regardless of their actions against Palestinians, he's supported regime change in places like Libya and Syria.
Biden has decent policy positions on things like the environment, (though he doesn't go nearly far enough), and gun control
He has taken the wrong position on many different issues many times during his political career only to later, sometimes much later apologize for them when it became politically convenient or personally beneficial. None of these are what I would consider "fighting for Democratic values".
Sanders supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 at twice the rate Clinton supporters voted for Obama in 2008. Was that based on foreign influence, too? Sanders held ~40 campaign events across the country endorsing and promoting Clinton in 2016. The idea that he was in any way responsible for or contributed to her loss is completely unsubstantiated and all the evidence in fact shows the complete opposite. If it weren't for Sanders endorsement, she likely would not have won the popular vote.
Then you're simply naive to the way American politics and campaign finance laws work in this country. Billionaires donate to politicians for political influence. I'd implore you to do some research on the corrupting influence of money in American politics.
You're missing the point. It's not about demonizing the rich for being rich. It's about eliminating the ability for very wealthy and powerful individuals and institutions to subvert the democratic process by purchasing political influence through legalized bribery. Many different academic political science studies confirm this is real, and show exactly how it happens. YOU yourself can see exactly how it happens, I'm sure, when it comes to members of the Republican party accepting money from institutions like the NRA, then voting against any gun control legislation, even if the majority of their own constituents support it.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
I am about to pass out, but I appreciate the response, if I miss something I will hit it in the morning.
You are falling into the trap of blaming the outcome of events on any one person and saying because it wasn't a good part of what happened it all on them. The crime bill? I bet if you looked through all the documents on it, the part you are talking you could figure out who wrote it. But the part about dealing with sexual predators and banning assault riffles was apart of that too, most bills are like that so politicians can complain however they want to after the fact.
I can't say what progressives believe, but the extreme disparities prior to the great depression was that banks were due to so many issues it is hard to know, we are just getting to a point in our stage of civilization that we have time and resources to reflect on things that have occurred in a more meaningful way as a whole. I would point out that over the last 100 years (even if I disagree with a lot of what we did to get here) we have made great strides for the vast majority of our citizens. The people that are unable to function in our society would have had the same if not worse difficulties anytime in history.
You say you not saying their Republicans but then go onto a rant about how he has not fought for Democratic values.
You are falling into the trap of blaming the outcome of events on any one person and saying because it wasn't a good part of what happened it all on them. The crime bill? I bet if you looked through all the documents on it, the part you are talking you could figure out who wrote it. But the part about dealing with sexual predators and banning assault riffles was apart of that too, most bills are like that so politicians can complain however they want to after the fact.
Or maybe because time and reflection can change a persons mind? It was a Wealthy White Heterosexual Male Only party for a long time... no forever, and over Biden's lifetime he has been a part of the Democratic party change to reflect the entire country. He has been exposed to a lot of things he would never have without that and it is good that he changed on them.
I would like to see this, I call bullshit here. But am willing to apologize if I am wrong.
Sure there is 'influence' but that really does not mean they owe them anything like you said they did. Technology is starting to bring all this into the light, it is getting too hard to hide the bullshit, which is why Trump is screwed.
I am all for silencing the corporations, churches, whatever in our political processes, but unfortunately that would only make it easier for the richest people to just run for office. I don't like that politicians have to beg for money. I think that is why you don't have serious people run for office often enough.
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
I agree that we have made great strides over the last 100 years, but those strides are despite all the obstacles promoted by big business, not because of them. Last century we enacted and enforced anti-trust laws, child labor laws, the 40 hour work week, minimum wage, time and a half for overtime work, supported strong union membership which led to increased bargaining power for workers, etc. All of these advancements happened because American workers demanded them while business leaders fought tooth and nail against them, every step of the way. As you said earlier, they are only looking out for their own best interests, but what you failed to acknowledge was that those interests more frequently than not come at the expense of working class interests. There is a window where both can meet in the middle, I think workers should earn a living wage and be able to support a basic standard of living if they work full time, I don't believe that's an unreasonable position to hold. I also believe it's OK for business leaders/owners to earn 20, 30, 50x what their average employee earns, that's reasonable, too. But what we have happening today is so far beyond what any rational person would consider reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. 300, 500, 1,000x more than their average employee earns while workers don't earn enough to survive and require government assistance to make up the difference. THAT is unreasonable, I'm sure you would agree
I'm pointing out the problem of inconsistency in policy. There's no reason someone like Bernie Sanders can remain consistent on these issues his entire political career and someone like Joe Biden can't. You would be hard pressed to find Bernie Sanders on the wrong side of an issue Democratic party voters value over the length of his entire political career beginning in Burlington. That's not to say he isn't ever wrong, it's to illustrate how thoughtful his positions actually are. He doesn't support whatever may be politically convenient at the time, he takes stands on things he believes in because he believes they're right, regardless of what society at the time thinks. There's a clip of him calling out homophobic congressman, Duke Cunningham, on the house floor for calling gay people "homo's" after they chose to serve in the military, in 1995. To me, that's the kind of action that shows true leadership.
That's fine, too. I support that, better late than never, right? But in your opinion, do you want someone in a position of power who spent as much time apologizing for the wrong calls they made and wrong votes they cast (that had very serious real world consequences for millions of people, mind you) as they do congratulating themselves about the right ones, or someone who has been consistently right on the issues throughout their career?
"About 12 percent of Bernie Sanders supporters from the Democratic primary crossed party lines and voted for Donald Trump in the general election"
Sanders earned 13.2 million votes during the 2016 Democratic primary, ~80% of which voted for Clinton in the general election, that equates to 10.5 million votes
"Despite the seemingly strong empirical support in previous studies for theories of majoritarian democracy, our analyses suggest that majorities of the American public actually have little influence over the policies our government adopts. Americans do enjoy many features central to democratic governance, such as regular elections, freedom of speech and association, and a widespread (if still contested) franchise. But we believe that if policymaking is dominated by powerful business organizations and a small number of affluent Americans, then America’s claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened."
Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens
I disagree. If we eliminate the influence of special interests being able to legally bribe politicians through a gross interpretation of our campaign finance laws, politicians would be required to represent the interests of their constituents if they would hope to be able to fund a competitive campaign. Elections should be won based on the quality of the policy positions politicians support, and the value of those positions to American voters.
Good little video there and a bit of an underlying truth about this state, which is that we like to look a lot more liberal than we act. We voted against gay marriage three times, all while pretending to be oh so accepting of everyone. That Duke guy is a real pos and a wonderful example of your average elected republican.
captainmorgan
Well-Known Member
The numbers say Bernie will most likely be dead before 2024, who the fuck would vote for that?
captainmorgan
Well-Known Member
Bernie as president lol, is there a backlog of post offices that need renaming, he's done shit as a senator and people believe he will transform this country into some utopia, what a fucking joke.