Wisconsin Revolt

Who do you support in the Wisconsin Revolt?

  • Total voters
    118
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
Carthoris said:
He got turned in by his girlfriend and had pictures of himself in front of the plants or something didn't he?
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It has been a while so I don't remember the specific details as much as I remember the impact it had on me.

He was very careless about what and where he posted in relation to his grow op.

He also buckled under interrogation and squealed. If I remember correctly that's how the coppers discovered his RIU stuff.

Even so, it put me on notice. I'm a little more careful nowadays.
 
maximus444

maximus444

Member
Carthoris said:
Democracy is mob rule. America is a Constitutional Republic. The people in the bakeries outnumber CEOs like 100,000 to 1. So they can vote for someone to represent them in the Republic. They have just as much say in the voting process. The reason rich people have power over poorer people is because the rich people have something the poorer people want. Money. Any control that the rich exhibit over your life is a direct reflection of your allowing them to control you for a portion of the money they have. The power the poorer obviously have over the rich is they outnumber them and can by acting like the lynch mobs of old, take and do whatever they want. Look at the taxes. Rich pay 30-40%, Poor get money from the system, the middle pays little.

There is very little personal responsibility in the type of government the left wants. No responsibility for your own health care, retirement, children, or if you even have a job. The same could be said of the right, though in a moral sense. It is awesome deciding whether you want the shackles on your materials or morals.
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The local bakers (middle class) wages haven't risen in 3 decades while the CEO's wages have sky rocketed. The CEO of Goldman Sachs has about 100,000 times more influence over policy decisions than 100,000 bakers have, but thats alright dude, because money is power right.
 
C

Coolwhip

Member
NewGrowth said:
How does this work? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704050204576219073867182108.htmMore government employees than ever! Let the layoffs begin!

PS- those here that despise facts or the truth should not click the link.
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Ummm...that's because the government is the only industry that hasn't outsourced all of its workers.

That article just speaks more to the state of a working class America than about big government. Of course there are more government employees now than ever, we have a larger population now than we ever have before, it only makes sense. If the corporations which you love oh so much hadn't been allowed to outsource all of our jobs then the same would be true of all the industries listed in the article.

Here, why don't you read a little bit about the people you want to put out of work. And then decide if maybe its not such a bad deal after all.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3410

And more of the federal budget goes back to private corporations and firms(think subsidies, defense contracts, etc.) than what goes to pay the wages of public employees.
 
Ernst

Ernst

Well-Known Member
Dan Kone said:
By democracy I was referring to the fact that we have democratic elections, not the system of government. The word democracy can be used in different ways.
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Friday April 1st 2011th show of Demovracy now has Democratic Rep. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio discussing the true dimension of what is happening as to these states that are not only reducing worker rights but privatizing public property and services often to low bidders.

What is clear is that our best efforts to keep up with the news is working!

It's a lot deeper than just Wisconsin and includes Ohio.
http://www.democracynow.org/shows/2011/4
 
BudMcLovin

BudMcLovin

Active Member
Coolwhip said:
If the corporations which you love oh so much hadn't been allowed to outsource all of our jobs then the same would be true of all the industries listed in the article.
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I believe those jobs that you are calling “ours” actually belong to the companies that relocated.
 
C

Coolwhip

Member
Carthoris said:
Look at the taxes. Rich pay 30-40%, Poor get money from the system, the middle pays little.
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That isn't true, at all. This is what scares me, people who have no grasp on reality despite the fact that they are actively involving themselves in the political process through debate.
The world you describe just doesn't exist.

When you consider all taxes(not just the federal income tax) the rich pay an effective tax rate of 17%. The middle pays an effective tax rate of 30% or more. And the lower class has an effective tax rate of around 20-25%. This is because people in the top 1% are usually paying capital gains taxes not income taxes, and the other taxes end up being a small portion of their income, as opposed to low/middle class workers who will pay more in other taxes than income taxes.

Just because someone doesn't pay income taxes doesn't mean they pay nothing, they still pay property taxes, tag and title, sales, OASDI, etc.

But when conservatives try to talk about taxes and class warfare they ONLY talk about the federal income tax. A tax that was NEVER intended to be applied to anyone BUT the rich. But, in the name of "fairness", has been shifted down the income ladder for decades.
 
C

Coolwhip

Member
BudMcLovin said:
I believe those jobs that you are calling “ours” actually belong to the companies that relocated.
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What is your point? The positions were offshored, are you saying they weren't? I don't see a point here.

And the companies didn't relocate, just the jobs.
 
BudMcLovin

BudMcLovin

Active Member
My point is they belong to the company and where they choose to employee people is entirely up to them. They were NEVER American jobs, American workers only performed them.
 
C

Coolwhip

Member
Ok. That doesn't change the fact that the "american performed" jobs were offshored from America to other countries.

I still don't see how what you are saying pertains to my point, which is that government employment has increased while employment in the other industries listed has fallen because the government doesn't/hasn't outsourced while those other industries have. You are attacking a straw man.

As far as I can tell conservatives won't be happy until there are no jobs left in America, public or private. You defend corporations for outsourcing and you attack the government for hiring Americans. Are you sure you want our economy to recover?
 
BudMcLovin

BudMcLovin

Active Member
The problem is government doesn’t create anything. They simple redistribute the wealth of the nation. The reason companies have been relocating overseas is to lower cost. Perhaps instead of spending time and money on employing people to figure out why pigs smell, maybe the government could stop making it so damn expensive to do business in this country.
 
C

Coolwhip

Member
BudMcLovin said:
The problem is government doesn’t create anything. They simple redistribute the wealth of the nation. The reason companies have been relocating overseas is to lower cost. Perhaps instead of spending time and money on employing people to figure out why pigs smell, maybe the government could stop making it so damn expensive to do business in this country.
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Yes, the government provides services, but very few of those services are involved with redistribution of wealth.

And it's not a matter of it being too expensive to do business here, it's a matter of the countries exporting to us having no labor standards.

There are lot of ways the government could have provided incentives or penalties for retaining or outsourcing labor, respectively. But it really boils down to the fact that the free market, when allowed, will find a cheap labor source to exploit. All in the name of efficiency of course.

If the US were to set international labor and environmental standards, similar to our own, and require any country to meet those standards in order to export to us then we wouldn't have this problem.

Short of doing this the gov't would have to deregulate us into the 1920's in order to bring labor back to America. There's a reason we have environmental and labor regulation.
 
C

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Coolwhip said:
That isn't true, at all. This is what scares me, people who have no grasp on reality despite the fact that they are actively involving themselves in the political process through debate.
The world you describe just doesn't exist.
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I assume you mean the world where everyone should be responsible for their own actions? I agree that is simply does not exist anymore. It is unrealistic to suppose that people should take care of themselves only to the far left.
When you consider all taxes(not just the federal income tax) the rich pay an effective tax rate of 17%. The middle pays an effective tax rate of 30% or more. And the lower class has an effective tax rate of around 20-25%. This is because people in the top 1% are usually paying capital gains taxes not income taxes, and the other taxes end up being a small portion of their income, as opposed to low/middle class workers who will pay more in other taxes than income taxes.
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You don't own a house - or you would know that poor people pay little, nothing, or a very reduced rate for property taxes in most states. In most places homestead exemption takes up a huge portion of the 'poor' peoples taxes. The rich pay more than their fair share of those taxes also. You obviously advocate taxing based on something other than use. Why would a rich person need to pay 10x's the amount of a poor person to drive on the street? Should we charge them more for milk and gas too? It is a difference of opinions. Nothing you say will convince anyone that believes in personal responsibility that the rich should take care of the poor. How many educated and motivated poor people do you see in life? I don't know that I ever met one that didn't have something severely wrong with him. (drug addiction, alcoholism, or something to that effect)
Just because someone doesn't pay income taxes doesn't mean they pay nothing, they still pay property taxes, tag and title, sales, OASDI, etc.

But when conservatives try to talk about taxes and class warfare they ONLY talk about the federal income tax. A tax that was NEVER intended to be applied to anyone BUT the rich. But, in the name of "fairness", has been shifted down the income ladder for decades.
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On the federal level it was illegal until the early 1913 when the government decided to consolidate and took power from the states. Income tax was never intended to exist at all. The entire government was controlled by Democrats. This is when the Democratic party (with help from the Socialist party) passed the 16th amendment and income tax became legal. Big government was always the democrats dream.

This is also an argument that forgets that state and federal taxes aren't the same. You do not understand that federal taxes and state taxes are not on an equal footing. The states are not restrained from taxing except the restraints imposed upon itself. The states or the people are responsible for everything that the constitution does not grant responsibility for to the federal government.

You seem to be making the argument that rich people should pay more for registration and title services in this statement and that they pay less than poor people. It isn't true. Rich people have more cars than poor people on a regular basis and pay more for tag and title due to having more vehicles. They also pay more in taxes since the cars are more expensive. If you really believe a millionaire is paying less or the same as a person making 40k in tax, tag, and title then there is little anyone can do to fix these issues in your head since you are obviously out of it.

Why not just be honest and say "To each according to his ability,to each according to his need"?
 
C

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Coolwhip said:
What is your point? The positions were offshored, are you saying they weren't? I don't see a point here.

And the companies didn't relocate, just the jobs.
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The government has a huge responsibility for those outsourced jobs. Tariffs are within the governments power. Why haven't they imposed them on countries that are destroying our manufacturing ability?
 
C

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Coolwhip said:
Ok. That doesn't change the fact that the "american performed" jobs were offshored from America to other countries.

I still don't see how what you are saying pertains to my point, which is that government employment has increased while employment in the other industries listed has fallen because the government doesn't/hasn't outsourced while those other industries have. You are attacking a straw man.

As far as I can tell conservatives won't be happy until there are no jobs left in America, public or private. You defend corporations for outsourcing and you attack the government for hiring Americans. Are you sure you want our economy to recover?
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If the government hadn't made the atmosphere for businesses in America less profitable than in foreign countries the businesses would not have left. Who lives in a unrealistic world now? You understand the whole point in business is to make money, right? Hiring government workers means that 'the people' have to pay for them. If you want to make more jobs in America the government isn't the place to make them - that would just drag the rest of us down. You have a few options. Mainly 1) tariffs. Putting tariffs on 3rd world goods would raise their prices and make them comparable to domestic goods in price. or 2) Reduce the cost of doing business for American companies. This means lowering wages, eliminating stupid regulations, or other moves. What other options do you have? Both are bitter pills to take. Simply put with free trade the money flows to the place where labor is the cheapest and productions does too until they are equal. So until we are on an even footing with China they will continue to steal our jobs, money, and manufacturing.

America's economy was artificially inflated due to blowing everyone elses factories up in WW2. Short of starting another war or the other 2 things I mentioned we will continue to bleed like we are now. To blame businesses is ignorant of the situation.
 
A

angelsbandit

Well-Known Member
The problem is:

If the USA tries to put tariffs in place, the trading partner will react in kind.
Tariffs placed on China's goods, will result in tariffs on the American products they import.

The USA has little enough exports as it is, and with higher tariffs - American exports would fall even lower than their current level.
Everything is not as easy as many seem to think - every action results in a reaction from someone else.
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Coolwhip said:
Ummm...that's because the government is the only industry that hasn't outsourced all of its workers.

That article just speaks more to the state of a working class America than about big government. Of course there are more government employees now than ever, we have a larger population now than we ever have before, it only makes sense. If the corporations which you love oh so much hadn't been allowed to outsource all of our jobs then the same would be true of all the industries listed in the article.

Here, why don't you read a little bit about the people you want to put out of work. And then decide if maybe its not such a bad deal after all.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3410

And more of the federal budget goes back to private corporations and firms(think subsidies, defense contracts, etc.) than what goes to pay the wages of public employees.
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Who pays for the government workers? I think you actually believe that Government makes a profit and then pays part of the profit to pay for Government employees. It doesn't work that way. Government works at 100% loss, there is never a profit. And Working Citizens who do not work for the government are the ones paying for EVERYTHING. Show me a government worker who pays his own paycheck through taxes.
 
NewGrowth

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
Coolwhip said:
Ummm...that's because the government is the only industry that hasn't outsourced all of its workers.

That article just speaks more to the state of a working class America than about big government. Of course there are more government employees now than ever, we have a larger population now than we ever have before, it only makes sense. If the corporations which you love oh so much hadn't been allowed to outsource all of our jobs then the same would be true of all the industries listed in the article.

Here, why don't you read a little bit about the people you want to put out of work. And then decide if maybe its not such a bad deal after all.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3410

And more of the federal budget goes back to private corporations and firms(think subsidies, defense contracts, etc.) than what goes to pay the wages of public employees.
Click to expand...
After reading your link is looking like close to 10% of the local government workforce could safely be eliminated!
I love how you guys put words in our mouth too! I love corporations? What does that even mean? A corporation is a tool for private and public enterprise. I may not agree with all the legal powers given a corporation however. The ironic part is pretty much anyone in this country can legal own a corporation! Fight with tools:wink:
Now I'm also assuming most of the hippies that preach about he "evil corporations" are talking about the monoliths aka Enron, GE, Microsoft, ect. These institutions are driven by profit and greed but we still buy thier shit. The real enemy is the pupeteers themselves. The bankers, namely The Federal Reserve.
Even beyond that point, without the ability to produce goods of any value it becomes nearly impossible to create wealth. Wealth is necessary to power an economy. The government also depends on wealth to pay all it's workers. Money does not magically appear out of thin air (unless you're the Fed). I'm sure wherever you work someone owns the place. You hate them for giving you a job?
 
C

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Coolwhip said:
Yes, the government provides services, but very few of those services are involved with redistribution of wealth.

And it's not a matter of it being too expensive to do business here, it's a matter of the countries exporting to us having no labor standards.

There are lot of ways the government could have provided incentives or penalties for retaining or outsourcing labor, respectively. But it really boils down to the fact that the free market, when allowed, will find a cheap labor source to exploit. All in the name of efficiency of course.

If the US were to set international labor and environmental standards, similar to our own, and require any country to meet those standards in order to export to us then we wouldn't have this problem.

Short of doing this the gov't would have to deregulate us into the 1920's in order to bring labor back to America. There's a reason we have environmental and labor regulation.
Click to expand...

The government provides services. In large they are paid for by the rich and used by the poor. This means you are taking money from the rich to give to the poor. This is called redistribution. Whether it is in the form of services, money, or pecans. It is still redistribution. So in response - All government services are basically redistribution of wealth.
 
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