Wisconsin Revolt

Carne Seca said:

Nice little bit of Obfuscation there. Here is the reality and background of that quote, Representing schools and students was not Shanker's job. He was the representative for the teachers. That's a fact. No scandal there. Just as when CEO's say that their responsibility is to shareholders, not the wider public. That was his job. Plus when you say "former president" you should give the dates to make it more relevant. He was president between, 1964 to 1984. It's not even a related issue and taken completely out of context. No surprise there.

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Your straw man argument is a worthless act of desperation.

The incontrovertible fact is he said it. And he was telling the truth. Teachers unions support teachers, not school children.

It is a related issue because it holds true today.

And it's completely in context of the situation. Spoiled government employees have lived large on good salaries and fat benefit packages for a long time. Even when the economy is struggling and they are asked to make a few sacrifices just about everyone else has had to make; what do they do? They shut down the public schools, which are so IMPORTANT to Proggies, as a big fat "FUCK YOU" to the taxpayer.

Which means the actual obfuscation occurs when teachers union members implore us to 'do it for the children' when they really mean 'do it for US!'

Johnnyorganic said:

Your straw man argument is a worthless act of desperation.

The incontrovertible fact is he said it. And he was telling the truth. Teachers unions support teachers, not school children.

It is a related issue because it holds true today.

And it's completely in context of the situation. Spoiled government employees have lived large on good salaries and fat benefit packages for a long time. Even when the economy is struggling and they are asked to make a few sacrifices just about everyone else has had to make; what do they do? They shut down the public schools, which are so IMPORTANT to Proggies, as a big fat "FUCK YOU" to the taxpayer.

Which means the actual obfuscation occurs when teachers union members implore us to 'do it for the children' when they really mean 'do it for US!'

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Wow.. you only see what you want to see to support your argument. The truly ironic aspect of your deliberate blindness is that you are only showing everyone just how wrong you are and how little knowledge you have of the educational system and how Unions work. You know one thing, I. HATE. UNIONS. Next time you decide to cut and paste from a union busting site? Make sure you do a little background research so you don't end up looking like a fool. Once again, this is not about teachers. You've been told that before but you just ignore and continue with your diatribe of misinformation.

Carne Seca said:

Wow.. you only see what you want to see to support your argument. The truly ironic aspect of your deliberate blindness is that you are only showing everyone just how wrong you are and how little knowledge you have of the educational system and how Unions work. You know one thing, I. HATE. UNIONS. Next time you decide to cut and paste from a union busting site? Make sure you do a little background research so you don't end up looking like a fool. Once again, this is not about teachers. You've been told that before but you just ignore and continue with your diatribe of misinformation.

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So you claim I cut and paste from a union busting site. I can only say my statements are mine and I did not do such a thing. Now that I have denied your pathetic attempt to discredit me, it is time for you to prove I cut and pasted. Your credibility is on the line now.

This is about spoiled government employees who are members of public sector unions. Teachers are a big part of this discussion.

What misinformation am I providing? Go ahead. Prove I have been deliberately providing misinformation.

You obviously enjoy making blind, knee-jerk accusations which carry no weight whatsoever because you cannot prove any of them.

Do you think if you keep repeating them you can silence me?

FAT chance.

There is a fool in this conversation. I quoted him or her at the beginning of this post.

ink the world said:

Comparing consumer spending to how tax money is spent is laughable and you are intelligent enough to know it. I dont want my tax money spent on the Drug War, Iraq, Afghanistan, tax breaks for oil companies, farm subsidies, the financial support for foreign dictators, etc. etc.
That really doesnt matter and we both know it, we elect people and they spend that $ how they see fit. We get the government we deserve.

On the original topic at hand, this is CLEARLY not about saving tax payers any money, it never has been. The union has conceded the cut in pay and the increases in employee contributions. They have given the Governor supposedly what he wanted.

His response? No deal.

If this was only about saving the tax payers $ the problem would be solved. His refusal to accept collective bargaining is clear evidence that this is purely about union busting. There is no deal simply because he will not accept their right to collective bargaining. Like Ive said before, I feel bad for the Tea Party supporters. Their cause and movement got hijacked.

Instead of job creation we have gotten "so be it", abortion bills, health care repeal bills, bills to end child labor laws and more bullshit. So serious about balancing the budget, make oil companies actually pay taxes instead of giving them tax refunds. Stop spending $ on wars without any real victory to be had and then the idea of being some kind of budget savior will actually have merit.

Union busting, abortion bans, child labor repeal and more bullshit isnt gonna get us out of the hole and we all know it.

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My comparison of the "almost free market" is it works mostly on choice. If you don't like Walmart, you can go to K-Mart or somewhere else. You as a consumer benefit by having a choice. With public schools, there is no choice. Even if you home school or send your kids to a private school you are forced to pay for that which you don't want; the public school. That's a nice deal if you draw a paycheck from the school system, having a captive payment. If Walmart got paid every time I shopped at K-Mart how would Walmart ever learn to bring value if they know they are going to get paid anyway?

If you don't like funding wars and empire building, farm subsidies etc. why do you fund them ? Is it because of the fear of what will happen to you if you don't? I think it could be. I don't like funding them either....so I don't. Why would I want to fund the death of people that have never harmed me? When I realized that's how it works, and it is how it works, I stopped funding it. Fuck them, my money will not fund death of innocent people, period. Nor will I fund putting my neighbors that choose to smoke or grow a plant in jail. It is empowering to make a moral decision like that. I encourage you to do the same. It will never change unless talk becomes action.

You say we get the government we deserve. No. You make distinctions as if by some magic moving the pieces around on the board, or getting new masters will solve problems. I don't subscribe to that. It's the game of government itself that is wrong, not where the pieces sit on the board.

Government's business model is flawed, it relies on the initiation of force. Absent that, it cannot exist. Therefore I say it should cease to exist or at a maximum if it must exist, PROTECT liberty, not redefine it. Deal honestly and peacefully with your neighbors. Government doesn't permit peace, it can't if it's very foundation and funding is based on the initiation of force on people.

All the back and forth about which government or shiny new blowhard that just got elected will make things better has resulted in what? Do we have peace? Can people own themselves, their bodies, their property, their labor? Nope. Yet we have government, how has government protected rights? Government protects itself and those that work within it, it cannot serve those interests and simultaneously protect your right to be left alone can it?

If you want real change, you can't continue to support something that is based on nonconsensual transactions and then renames it s to avoid the ugly truth of what it really is. Government is force, there is nothing consensual about it.

Johnnyorganic said:

So you claim I cut and paste from a union busting site. I can only say my statements are mine and I did not do such a thing. Now that I have denied your pathetic attempt to discredit me, it is time for you to prove I cut and pasted. Your credibility is on the line now.

This is about spoiled government employees who are members of public sector unions. Teachers are a big part of this discussion.

What misinformation am I providing? Go ahead. Prove I have been deliberately providing misinformation.

You obviously enjoy making blind, knee-jerk accusations which carry no weight whatsoever because you cannot prove any of them.

Do you think if you keep repeating them you can silence me?

FAT chance.

There is a fool in this conversation. I quoted him or her at the beginning of this post.

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You know I would go head to head with you if I thought it was worth it. I corrected your earlier misleading quote. My job is done. Continue rant. Every anti-union website is spouting this quote out of context. Please don't tell me you thought of that yourself. People go to hell for lying.

Carne Seca said:

You know I would go head to head with you if I thought it was worth it.

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Horseshit.

You can't prove ANY of the false accusations.

That's why you won't bother trying.

Carne Seca said:

I corrected your earlier misleading quote. My job is done. Continue rant. Every anti-union website is spouting this quote out of context. Please don't tell me you thought of that yourself. People go to hell for lying.

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Corrected how?

Do you dispute the quote is correct?

Do dispute the man who said it was the former president of not one, but TWO teacher's unions?

I had been exposed to it previously on several occasions. It was by way of the CATO Institute and the Heritage Foundation. Think tanks. Not 'union busting' websites. LOL!

All I had to do was Google a quote that I already knew existed. Boom! There it was. And I typed it in myself.

You sniveled something about context and age. Both of which I showed to be irrelevant.

The only hell that exists is the hell I am obviously putting you through in your hilarious attempts at dismissal.

Rob Roy said:

Nobody is "forcing" you not to calculate the taxes as if it was legal and send it to your beloved government as a donation.

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you're right, no one is forcing me to not pay taxes. it is a decision i am making for reasons stated previously.

Rob Roy said:

Or do you only give up the green when the nanny state demands it from you? That seems so selfish of you.

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i pay my fair share of taxes when i work above the table.

my choice not to pay taxes on my side gig is my incentive for this nation to legitimize said gig.

they want my dough? no problem. i am happy to provide it....so long as it is above board and legal.

Rob Roy said:

Yes keep paying so that the nice policeman can have a fat budget to come arrest you

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or come arrest the ripper who trespasses my personal property, or any number of other villains about.

Rob Roy said:

and his retired friends that work as court bailiffs
can lead you away to jail, after the bloated salary prosecuter and judge combine to fuck you over...

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lead me away to jail for what? i am legal in the eyes of oregon law and only accept donations for supplies and utilities associated with producing. plus i have an affirmative defense.

it would take a federal prosecutor to put me away, and that ain't happening since i am what they would call a 'small fish'.

and also because of obama's decision to voice respect for state rights on the matter. thanks, obama.

Rob Roy said:

No wait...I've got it, send that $1,000 you would have paid if prop 74 had passed to those poor suffering teachers in Wisconsin.

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nah, i'll dangle my potential revenue over everyone's head until they decide to legitimize my little side gig.

if they want it, they can have it....just gotta take the stigma away first.

Rob Roy said:

...is it a "deal" for the person that never used that system or wanted it and is forced to pay for it anyway ? How is it a "deal" when one party has no say in the terms? Please explain that to me.


If Walmart is having deals that you don't want and sends you a bill are you obligated to pay them?

What if Walmart opened up daycare / schools and their deal was cheaper but they promised a better value, should you be able to send your kid there and should you still have to pay for something you no longer use?

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don't act like you are not deriving personal benefit as we speak from the public education system.

you are transmitting your message via the internet, after all.

i imagine you would not have that luxury had their been no such thing as public education.

Johnnyorganic said:

Teachers abused the sick-day benefit to shut down your precious public schools, Buck. And you are defending them.

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you say 'abused', i say 'utilized'.

Johnnyorganic said:

Obama himself said "elections have consequences." What you are seeing is the consequences of the Teabagger surge you scoffed at on Election day. Remember when you crowed because the Republicans only managed to take the House of Representatives?

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i still scoff. without the senate, which they would basically have had they not ran tea party nuts like o'donnell and buck, they are much less powerful.

Johnnyorganic said:

Now we have a situation where a bunch of over-compensated worker bees are marching on their state capitol whining because they are being asked to fund part of their own generous retirement packages and part of their Cadillac health care benefits.

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you are missing the point. perhaps you are being obtuse. perhaps you have spent too much time performing obtuse metal processes.

they are offering these concessions. they understand the need for austerity and sacrifice.

what they are 'whining' about is their right to collective bargaining. period.

Johnnyorganic said:

They are throwing a tantrum in a pretty crappy economy where the average Schmoe is laughing at them. Because they obviously have little idea of what life is life in the real world.

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a tantrum? little concept of the real world?

that is YOU, not the teachers. you came into this thread foaming at the mouth to badmouth unions. i nearly preempted you after my first post, but chose to let you just jump in all predictably and whatnot.

Johnnyorganic said:

The real world where calling in sick means you don't get paid for that day. The real world where you fund 100% of your retirement. The real world where you are responsible for your own health care.

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hey buddy, i live in the real world. as we have discussed, accrued PTO paid me on sick days. a 6% 401k match meant i did not fund 100% of my retirement. and although i paid for a health plan, i'm sure it was not at 100% either.

real world FAIL.

Johnnyorganic said:

If their jobs are so horrible they are free to find work elsewhere.

What's that? There are no other jobs?

Well, then... perhaps they should be grateful for the jobs they have and shut the fuck up because my sympathies lie with the taxpayers.

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public sector employees are also taxpayers.

glad to hear you back them

ink the world said:

Comparing consumer spending to how tax money is spent is laughable and you are intelligent enough to know it. I dont want my tax money spent on the Drug War, Iraq, Afghanistan, tax breaks for oil companies, farm subsidies, the financial support for foreign dictators, etc. etc.
That really doesnt matter and we both know it, we elect people and they spend that $ how they see fit. We get the government we deserve.

On the original topic at hand, this is CLEARLY not about saving tax payers any money, it never has been. The union has conceded the cut in pay and the increases in employee contributions. They have given the Governor supposedly what he wanted.

His response? No deal.

If this was only about saving the tax payers $ the problem would be solved. His refusal to accept collective bargaining is clear evidence that this is purely about union busting. There is no deal simply because he will not accept their right to collective bargaining. Like Ive said before, I feel bad for the Tea Party supporters. Their cause and movement got hijacked.

Instead of job creation we have gotten "so be it", abortion bills, health care repeal bills, bills to end child labor laws and more bullshit. So serious about balancing the budget, make oil companies actually pay taxes instead of giving them tax refunds. Stop spending $ on wars without any real victory to be had and then the idea of being some kind of budget savior will actually have merit.

Union busting, abortion bans, child labor repeal and more bullshit isnt gonna get us out of the hole and we all know it.

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i've said it before, but i love you.

will you marry me?

Johnnyorganic said:

Your straw man argument is a worthless act of desperation.

The incontrovertible fact is he said it. And he was telling the truth. Teachers unions support teachers, not school children.

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when you support a decent standard of living for the teachers, you attract better teachers, which equals better education for the schoolchildren.

perhaps we should pay teachers minimum wage, no benefits, and run ads on craigslist to fill the positions...

i imagine the results would be SPECTACULAR!

Johnnyorganic said:

It is a related issue because it holds true today.

And it's completely in context of the situation. Spoiled government employees have lived large on good salaries and fat benefit packages for a long time. Even when the economy is struggling and they are asked to make a few sacrifices just about everyone else has had to make; what do they do? They shut down the public schools, which are so IMPORTANT to Proggies, as a big fat "FUCK YOU" to the taxpayer.

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no, they offered to make those sacrifices. less pay, higher contribution, etc. they have made sacrifices and are willing to make more.

why are you acting so dense on this point?

EDIT - you might consider that college educate professionals generally have good salaries and benefit packages as well. but go ahead, use whatever language you must to make yourself feel justified at demanding that these college educated professionals not only make the sacrifices they have offered, but also give up their collective bargaining as well. sleep well at night.

Johnnyorganic said:

Which means the actual obfuscation occurs when teachers union members implore us to 'do it for the children' when they really mean 'do it for US!'

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see my original point.

when you attract better teachers, it leads to a better education for the children than mining minimum wage dirtbags.

it is an example of trickle down that actually works

as far as further posts go about the heritage foundation...i'm sure they just LOVE unions.

you are getting more and more ridiculous as this conversation goes on, johnny.

UncleBuck said:

you say 'abused', i say 'utilized'.

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Regardless of the semantics, they shut down schools for three days, Buck. Your precious public schools.

I was under the impression public schools were a sacred cow to you guys on the Left. Or is that only when it is convenient?

If you say this brouhaha IS about public education, I believe Sr. Carne Seca would disagree.

This is about unions.

UncleBuck said:

i still scoff. without the senate, which they would basically have had they not ran tea party nuts like o'donnell and buck, they are much less powerful.

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Scoffing and getting all gunched up about the consequences of the election in only ONE state must be exhausting.

UncleBuck said:

you are missing the point. perhaps you are being obtuse. perhaps you have spent too much time performing obtuse metal processes.

they are offering these concessions. they understand the need for austerity and sacrifice.

what they are 'whining' about is their right to collective bargaining. period.

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Even President-for-Life FDR was against collective bargaining for government employees.

Sorta makes one wonder why.

UncleBuck said:

a tantrum? little concept of the real world?

that is YOU, not the teachers. you came into this thread foaming at the mouth to badmouth unions. i nearly preempted you after my first post, but chose to let you just jump in all predictably and whatnot.

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Not just the unions. But the worthless teachers who place their membership in a union over the careers they are supposedly 'dedicated' to.

They shut down schools, Buck. Your precious, precious public schools. For three days.

UncleBuck said:

hey buddy, i live in the real world. as we have discussed, accrued PTO paid me on sick days. a 6% 401k match meant i did not fund 100% of my retirement. and although i paid for a health plan, i'm sure it was not at 100% either.

real world FAIL.

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And not every job offers any or all of the benefits you described. Ask the average Schmoe.

Fail FAIL.

UncleBuck said:

public sector employees are also taxpayers.

glad to hear you back them

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Until they decide to use union bullying to raid the public treasury to fund their favorite special interest group - themselves.

UncleBuck said:

when you support a decent standard of living for the teachers, you attract better teachers, which equals better education for the schoolchildren.

perhaps we should pay teachers minimum wage, no benefits, and run ads on craigslist to fill the positions...

i imagine the results would be SPECTACULAR!

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And when you add union muscle to government employees, eventually you have a bankrupt public treasury.

UncleBuck said:

no, they offered to make those sacrifices. less pay, higher contribution, etc. they have made sacrifices and are willing to make more.

why are you acting so dense on this point?

EDIT - you might consider that college educate professionals generally have good salaries and benefit packages as well. but go ahead, use whatever language you must to make yourself feel justified at demanding that these college educated professionals not only make the sacrifices they have offered, but also give up their collective bargaining as well. sleep well at night.

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I acknowledge the fact that the concessions were made.

But I put forth that the rank and file did not like it one bit.

Are you saying the rabid throngs of union goons are protesting ONLY over the issue of collective bargaining?

Now who's being ridiculous?

UncleBuck said:

see my original point.

when you attract better teachers, it leads to a better education for the children than mining minimum wage dirtbags.

it is an example of trickle down that actually works

as far as further posts go about the heritage foundation...i'm sure they just LOVE unions.

you are getting more and more ridiculous as this conversation goes on, johnny.

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If that were the truth, why does the U.S continue to lag behind other developed nations in virtually every category of student performance?

It's not the money. We spend plenty of money already.

Maybe it's over-compensated, shitty teachers.

Johnnyorganic said:

Maybe it's over-compensated, shitty teachers.

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I assume your speaking in generalizations but it’s unjust and unfair to put the blame for the failures in the government education system squarely on the teachers. Parents, elected officials (federal, state and local), bureaucrats, teachers, unions, students are all to blame. Parents are the most to blame because they’ve tolerated the slow decay of the education system. Hell every tax payer and voter share in the blame.

America has had decades of economic growth and prosperity and when times were good elected officials made promises to employees and citizens. Citizens kept voting for the same assholes that waste public money on all kinds of bullshit. Remember the bridge to nowhere? It’s both sides keep us fighting and at each other’s throat. We need to break the back of the 2 party system. That would do a lot to putting more power back in the hands of voting Americans.

Oh and dam taco bell and that 4 kinds of steak commercial. Jing has been in my head for days. “Its 4 kinds of steak”. Fuckin lounge singer. Hahaaha
[video=youtube;BcixlBtZGmA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcixlBtZGmA&NR=1[/video]

BudMcLovin said:

I assume your speaking in generalizations but it’s unjust and unfair to put the blame for the failures in the government education system squarely on the teachers. Parents, elected officials (federal, state and local), bureaucrats, teachers, unions, students are all to blame. Parents are the most to blame because they’ve tolerated the slow decay of the education system. Hell every tax payer and voter share in the blame.

America has had decades of economic growth and prosperity and when times were good elected officials made promises to employees and citizens. Citizens kept voting for the same assholes that waste public money on all kinds of bullshit. Remember the bridge to nowhere? It’s both sides keep us fighting and at each other’s throat. We need to break the back of the 2 party system. That would do a lot to putting more power back in the hands of voting Americans.

Oh and dam taco bell and that 4 kinds of steak commercial. Jing has been in my head for days. “Its 4 kinds of steak”. Fuckin lounge singer. Hahaaha

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When times were good it was easy to give in to union demands.

It was 'for the children' after all.

The funny thing is that the children kept getting dumber. And taxpayers were consistently asked to throw more money at the problem each budget cycle.

The definition of 'insanity' comes to mind.

Government school teachers and other government employees have had it good while the rest of us in the economy dealt with it.

I have no sympathy for them.

Don't flame me for this post. But if you decide you must, keep it civil

I have had experience with public sector (union) workers. Let's start with construction (union) workers. I found that the young/new construction workers keep very busy. They do what needs to be done and try to do it as quick as possible. Then there's the guys who have been doing it for a while. More skilled but somewhat lazy. I've heard guys say "Slow down man, we got 3 months to finish this." They try to milk jobs for as long as they can. Job security. Then you got fucking supervisors. Outta shape, yelling at the new guys who are actually working, and joking around with all the old fucks who aren't doing shit. And these guys get paid pretty good, maybe 50-70k With benefits. And they do SHIT.

Now, I'm not trying to make a generalization about ALL union workers because some of them work hard and earn their paycheck. But the non union people here in Hawaii I talk to describe certain individuals as having the "State worker mentality". Meaning they try to do the least amount of work for the most money. And are lazy shits. I see it as a cycle. New guys earn their paychecks. But as time goes on they fall into that state worker mentality. I think people just get a sense of entitlement like "I've been here for 15 years, I should get paid more." I think that you should get paid for the amount of work that you put in. You should NOT get paid to sleep in your truck just because you've held a job for x amount of years.

Now teachers...that's a little tougher. I'm not saying it's easy to teach. Hell, I'd probably slap the shit out of kids if I was a teacher. But I think the benefits more than make up for spoiled kids. I mean, they hardly pay anything into the medical and retirement plans. And they are set once they retire. I mean, public sector jobs seem pretty chill to me. But I don't think these types of benfits are sustainable anymore. We just have to tell kids to start saving for their retirement NOW. Shit, by the time my parents retire that ship will have sailed. My retirement plan? Die young.

The following article was published at Lew Rockwell....seems to make alot of sense.

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]US Education: Show Us the Money![/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]According to the 2009 OECD figures, the US government spends more per pupil than any nation in the world except Switzerland. The US spent an average of $149,000 for the K–12 education of every 2009 public high school graduate. That works out to $11,461 per year or so.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]So the solution is obvious: shut down the schools and invest the money instead. Just let the kids stay home and study on the Internet. Let’s even save some money to reduce the deficit, and only invest $11,000 per year. At 7% return, each child would have a $391,000 IRA when they’re 18. That way, even if they spend the next 50 years surfing or hiking the Appalachian Trail, they would all retire at 68 with $12,512,000 (assuming the same 7% average yearly return). This solves not only the education crisis, but the Social Security problem (they wouldn’t need it) AND the health-budget crisis (how much heart disease could there be, if everyone spent their time surfing and hiking?)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]So we are spending a really staggering amount of capital on public schools. How’s it paying off for the lucky recipients? [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Not so well. While at the top rank in funding, the US is not exactly at the top of educational achievement. In the 2010 PISA report, US students placed 25th out of the 34 OECD countries in math. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Only 77.5% of US students even graduate from high school. If that seems frighteningly low, it is… West European graduation rates are closer to 90%, and that doesn’t count the many Europeans that enter industrial apprenticeship programs.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Districts that spend more money don’t necessarily get better results. The Washington DC school district spent $28,170 per pupil in 2009. The graduation rate was around 72%, even worse than the national average. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]So if throwing in more money doesn’t work, what does? Less money…. As long as it comes with more freedom. For concrete examples, I’ll use my adopted state of New Hampshire, home of the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Like the rest of the country, New Hampshire doesn’t economize on public education. From the NH Dept. of Education web site: "The per pupil amount of all expenditures – operating, tuition, transportation, equipment, interest, and non-K–12 expenditures is $13,914.96." (For the 2008–2009 school year, the most recent published). The 2010–11 figure will be far higher, well over $14,000, if only because interest expense will skyrocket. Much of the state operating budget was borrowed in the last two years… fortunately the legislature which went into debt was largely replaced last November, in part due to the NHLA. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Everyone knows that private school students get better academic scores. So everyone assumes that they must be very expensive. That assumption is wrong. Looking around at how much good private schools actually cost around NH:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Well School in Peterborough charges $7,360 for grades 1–4 and $8,800 for grades 5–8. Pine Hill Waldorf School in Wilton is $12,160 for grades 1–8. Monadnock Waldorf School costs $7800 for all grades. Here’s the fee schedule for St. Joseph Regional in Keene: "Tuition for grades K-8 for Catholics is $3,153, and $4,412 for non-Catholics. There is a 5 percent discount for one-time payment in full, and a discount for multiple children from a family." [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Tilton School charges $17,300 for grade 9–12 students… but they offer an indoor hockey rink, a full size theatre, a Creative Art Center and access to Gunstock ski resort. When do the students have time for math with all that skiing and hockey, anyway? But it’s true, if your private school only spends $8000 for grades K–8, you can splurge a little on the prom and the ski lodge when you’re a senior.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]We NH taxpayers are paying MORE per pupil than many private schools charge. We have plenty of money to give our children great educational opportunities. But we are turning it over to a system with no options for parents or innovative teachers. A system with no competition or choices is a system doomed to fail. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The situation is the same everywhere in the nation. We are spending enough money to give every child a good private education… and if the parents could get the money, no doubt they would do just that. If those Washington DC parents ever actually get their hands on that $28,170 per child, their children will quickly be breaking their legs on the ski resorts too (which will give them plenty of time to study their AP calculus).[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Of course the moral and practical solution is to leave education to the free market. Parents would pay for their own children, voluntary charity would pick up for the children of the unlucky or improvident few. There would be as many educational options as there are children.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]But the debate today is framed by the Department of Education and the teachers’ unions. They constantly shriek that "education needs more money." Fine. As a first step, let’s just agree with them. Education does need more money… and the only way to get more money for actual education is to give it to the parents, not the bureaucracy. Let the NEA explain why it’s OK for politicians’ (and NEA members&#8217 children to go to private schools, but the children of working people have to go to some of the lowest-quality public schools in the developed world….[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]And pay more for it.[/FONT]

How is shutting down schools by making a lie up about being sick helping to educate our children?

Johnnyorganic said:

Regardless of the semantics, they shut down schools for three days, Buck. Your precious public schools.

I was under the impression public schools were a sacred cow to you guys on the Left. Or is that only when it is convenient?

If you say this brouhaha IS about public education, I believe Sr. Carne Seca would disagree.

This is about unions.

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this is about unions. and public education.

like i keep saying, good luck attracting good teachers by treating them like walmart employees.

Johnnyorganic said:

Scoffing and getting all gunched up about the consequences of the election in only ONE state must be exhausting.

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yet somehow, i survive. thanks for your concern

Johnnyorganic said:

Even President-for-Life FDR was against collective bargaining for government employees.

Sorta makes one wonder why.

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i wonder why fdr is relevant to this thread. dude has been dead for a while now. obfuscation, perhaps? or perhaps you just like to wow us with your marvelous grasp of history.

if it is the latter, then "wow". happy now?

Johnnyorganic said:

Not just the unions. But the worthless teachers who place their membership in a union over the careers they are supposedly 'dedicated' to.

They shut down schools, Buck. Your precious, precious public schools. For three days.

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my parents used to send me to my room when i misbehaved as a child. i'm sure it was just because they wanted to see me suffer

you keep going back to this point..."they shut down the schools". i'm not so worried about a few days off as i am about teachers being put on the same level as walmart employees.

Johnnyorganic said:

And not every job offers any or all of the benefits you described. Ask the average Schmoe.

Fail FAIL.

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even my shit job that i work offers a 3% match on 401k, paid time off (just not as much), and health benefits (although not as good).

you know what jobs don't get a crack at this? walmart employees.

the same ones who are also denied collective bargaining.

Johnnyorganic said:

Until they decide to use union bullying to raid the public treasury to fund their favorite special interest group - themselves.

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that would explain why they offered concessions, right?

i don't think teachers caused the last recession or put wisconsin in debt, but they are offering to do their part and make sacrifices to help.

that's not good enough though. apparently, they must make all these sacrifices AND be reduced to walmart employee standard.

nothing will satisfy you until teachers jobs are outsourced to some inhumane labor factory in bangladesh that doesn't have so many 'oppressive burdens and regulations'.

Johnnyorganic said:

And when you add union muscle to government employees, eventually you have a bankrupt public treasury.

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back it up then. show me that public sector employees put wisconsin in debt.

do it, or lose all credibility. your choice.

Johnnyorganic said:

I acknowledge the fact that the concessions were made.

But I put forth that the rank and file did not like it one bit.

Are you saying the rabid throngs of union goons are protesting ONLY over the issue of collective bargaining?

Now who's being ridiculous?

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you are being ridiculous.

they made all the concessions, they did not like it, and it still wasn't good enough.

pretty straightforward to those not blinded by rage at unions.

Johnnyorganic said:

If that were the truth, why does the U.S continue to lag behind other developed nations in virtually every category of student performance?

It's not the money. We spend plenty of money already.

Maybe it's over-compensated, shitty teachers.

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maybe it's a gremlin in the attic.

positing that it might be the fault of the teachers, or the unions, does not make it so.

you have to put forth facts and evidence to make that case.

and you don't seem to have any to prove such a farce.