Why I hope Trump's future trial is televised.

cannabineer said:

If there were a sign with a specified distance, that would be an improvement.

That said, when Willis says no details because of the given legitimate reason, I’m fine with that.

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Roger A. Shrubber said:

this isn't a car trip, it's the future of our entire country. it's been THREE YEARS...I'd REALLY like to see some progress after THREE YEARS.
they didn't form the Jan 6 committee until July, almost 7 months after the fact. WHY?
you say we're impatient and i say that the DOJ and others have been dragging their feet.
the document case is cut and dried, there is no fucking argument, he had them, he refused to return them. more than one time. they lock people up for that shit...but not trump...
you say i'm impatient, and i say Garland is a shitty AG. a good man, would have been a great scotus judge, crap as AG...
now defend Garland...tell me i'm an immature child, while the republicans and the scotus are constantly maneuvering, and we're giving them so much time to do it they're starting to get impatient, themselves.

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CunningCanuk said:

Shut up back there or daddy Garland will turn the car around right now!

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Roger A. Shrubber said:

this isn't a car trip, it's the future of our entire country. it's been THREE YEARS...I'd REALLY like to see some progress after THREE YEARS.
they didn't form the Jan 6 committee until July, almost 7 months after the fact. WHY?
you say we're impatient and i say that the DOJ and others have been dragging their feet.
the document case is cut and dried, there is no fucking argument, he had them, he refused to return them. more than one time. they lock people up for that shit...but not trump...
you say i'm impatient, and i say Garland is a shitty AG. a good man, would have been a great scotus judge, crap as AG...
now defend Garland...tell me i'm an immature child, while the republicans and the scotus are constantly maneuvering, and we're giving them so much time to do it they're starting to get impatient, themselves.

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GenericEnigma said:

Politics and public perception must be accounted for. Independents must slowly slip into the cold swamp to avoid shock and disbelief.

Be they cowards or craftsmen, we will know after 2024's election. When viewed through the cynical lens of politics, the timing is lining up.

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Fogdog said:

Cynicism poisons inquiry.

To begin with the belief that the pace of the prosecution is defined by politics would be cynical. Are you saying Meadow's testimony was NOT important to the investigation? It took two years to compel him to testify and he fought it through the courts the whole way. It wasn't until Nov 30 that the final roadblock was cleared. Just a little more than one month later the report was finalized. Are you saying the courts slow walked this just so Democrats could win in 2024? Really? The Georgia and South Carolina Supreme Court support Democrats?

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GenericEnigma said:

I wouldn't claim it's entirely intentional or literally set up like a multi-pronged conspiracy (though I wouldn't discount it out of hand). However, whether through party optics or democracy optics, this work (J6 Special Council) must be done before the 2024 election/2025 Inauguration.

With that in mind, added to anticipation of oppositional tactics (potentials known and unknown), the timing will line itself out. Such timing could be implicit or explicit - but manifests regardless.

Tactics must adapt as new realities emerge (e.g., Meadows' testimony, jury convictions of Oath Keepers). But such developments would not adjust the drop-dead date.

There are too many uncertainties in this political climate for it to go much further in time. Even in GA and MI (maybe not NY so much). The stakes are very high, with liberal democracy hanging in the balance. It must all be done as correctly as possible and as promptly as possible (with an eye on Election Day 2024).

Considering what Republicans have already done, I wouldn't trust continuance of a Democrat-appointed Special Council under Republican governance.

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Fogdog said:

Failure is defined by Trump getting off the hook and success is defined by Trump getting put away for so long that even a young person would think twice about doing what he did. Nowhere in there do I mention entertaining the lynch mob. That's just my perception of all of this. Yours is yours.

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GenericEnigma said:

I wouldn't claim it's entirely intentional or literally set up like a multi-pronged conspiracy (though I wouldn't discount it out of hand). However, whether through party optics or democracy optics, this work (J6 Special Council) must be done before the 2024 election/2025 Inauguration.

With that in mind, added to anticipation of oppositional tactics (potentials known and unknown), the timing will line itself out. Such timing could be implicit or explicit - but manifests regardless.

Tactics must adapt as new realities emerge (e.g., Meadows' testimony, jury convictions of Oath Keepers). But such developments would not adjust the drop-dead date.

There are too many uncertainties in this political climate for it to go much further in time. Even in GA and MI (maybe not NY so much). The stakes are very high, with liberal democracy hanging in the balance. It must all be done as correctly as possible and as promptly as possible (with an eye on Election Day 2024).

Considering what Republicans have already done, I wouldn't trust continuance of a Democrat-appointed Special Council under Republican governance.

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Fogdog said:

It is debatable whether or not there is a drop dead date on Georgia's investigation. Georgia has its own justice system.

There is a risk that 2024 Republican President (assuming that is the outcome) would pressure the DOJ to drop federal investigations or prosecutions into Trump However, as we saw with the investigation into Russian collusion with Trump's campaign, the president's power is limited in stopping the DOJ altogether. Barr corruptly influenced the outcome by twisting the constitution's wording to mean a sitting president may not be indicted regardless of his crimes. So, I won't say you are wrong but then again, so was Barr. And so would be any president who took partisan action to protect a former president from prosecution who attempted to overthrow our government.

Cynicism assumes people always act according to their own interests -- a flabby and false logic. I do not agree that because Barr acted in bad faith, investigations into Trump's other crimes must be hurried to the point where they aren't given enough time to ensure a successful court trial. That kind of "heads I win, tails you lose" outcome is not justice. By that way of thinking, a president can only be held accountable for their crimes if the investigation and trial can be completed in four years. It is true that sometimes the bad guy wins but a cynical view like the one you propose puts the president above the law because it's too hard to press charges on him.

I believe that, considering their leadership and insane base, if a Republican wins the presidency within the next ten years, they will pardon Trump regardless the evidence against him. Does that mean we shouldn't try him?

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Fogdog said:

It is debatable whether or not there is a drop dead date on Georgia's investigation. Georgia has its own justice system.

There is a risk that 2024 Republican President (assuming that is the outcome) would pressure the DOJ to drop federal investigations or prosecutions into Trump However, as we saw with the investigation into Russian collusion with Trump's campaign, the president's power is limited in stopping the DOJ altogether. Barr corruptly influenced the outcome by twisting the constitution's wording to mean a sitting president may not be indicted regardless of his crimes. So, I won't say you are wrong but then again, so was Barr. And so would be any president who took partisan action to protect a former president from prosecution who attempted to overthrow our government.

Cynicism assumes people always act according to their own interests -- a flabby and false logic. I do not agree that because Barr acted in bad faith, investigations into Trump's other crimes must be hurried to the point where they aren't given enough time to ensure a successful court trial. That kind of "heads I win, tails you lose" outcome is not justice. By that way of thinking, a president can only be held accountable for their crimes if the investigation and trial can be completed in four years. It is true that sometimes the bad guy wins but a cynical view like the one you propose puts the president above the law because it's too hard to press charges on him.

I believe that, considering their leadership and insane base, if a Republican wins the presidency within the next ten years, they will pardon Trump regardless the evidence against him. Does that mean we shouldn't try him?

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GenericEnigma said:

In the face of whatever political cynicism might exist, the efforts underway should continue. Law should be applied.

Success is not guaranteed, and odds of success potentially diminish after 2024. It strikes me as a balancing act, especially when the credibility of all the investigations is under heavy scrutiny. They must be done impeccably under time constraint (some investigations more at risk than others).

The bolded in your response worries me greatly, as current polarization lends credence.

Cynicism is not preferred, but cannot be ignored.

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Fogdog said:

Cynicism is unreason. Cynicism poisons reason and therefore must be put aside when looking for answers. Simply to say that the end date of the Georgia investigation is "because the 2024 election" implies some sort of grand conspiracy that is ridiculous. But that's what a cynic can truthfully say, depending on their bias.. Before a skeptic would believe that, there must be evidence and where is it? As a skeptic, I do believe the Jan 6 attack on our Capitol Building was due to Trump's conspiracy to overthrow our election. There is plenty of evidence to support that. If there were none, I'd be looking for a different answer. But then again, I saw the whole thing play out between Nov 2020 and Jan 6, 2021, so I'm pretty much convinced. However, a cynic can explain anything from their view. They can make Democrats or Republicans the evil ones. Cynicsim unhinges a person from reality. As I said, cynicism is unreason and poisons a person's ability to think clearly.

Donald Trump is unusual in that he does only acts in what he perceives as his own interest. One can predict what he is going to do using that as a starting point. But he is a narcissist sociopath, which makes up maybe 5% of the population. Cynics believe Trump and everybody else are motivated purely by self interest. That is simply not true. A small number of people are like Trump. A small number would sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Everybody else fall in between the extremes.

So, yes, cynicism cannot be ignored because there are a lot of cynics out there and knowing this helps explain their action. This statement:

By that way of thinking, a president can only be held accountable for their crimes if the investigation and trial can be completed in four years.

Should worry you if you believe that cynicism is entrenched in our government, courts, economy, etc. I don't think it is and that is why I'm continuing this discussion.

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Fogdog said:

Cynicism is unreason. Cynicism poisons reason and therefore must be put aside when looking for answers. Simply to say that the end date of the Georgia investigation is "because the 2024 election" implies some sort of grand conspiracy that is ridiculous. But that's what a cynic can truthfully say, depending on their bias.. Before a skeptic would believe that, there must be evidence and where is it? As a skeptic, I do believe the Jan 6 attack on our Capitol Building was due to Trump's conspiracy to overthrow our election. There is plenty of evidence to support that. If there were none, I'd be looking for a different answer. But then again, I saw the whole thing play out between Nov 2020 and Jan 6, 2021, so I'm pretty much convinced. However, a cynic can explain anything from their view. They can make Democrats or Republicans the evil ones. Cynicsim unhinges a person from reality. As I said, cynicism is unreason and poisons a person's ability to think clearly.

Donald Trump is unusual in that he does only acts in what he perceives as his own interest. One can predict what he is going to do using that as a starting point. But he is a narcissist sociopath, which makes up maybe 5% of the population. Cynics believe Trump and everybody else are motivated purely by self interest. That is simply not true. A small number of people are like Trump. A small number would sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Everybody else fall in between the extremes.

So, yes, cynicism cannot be ignored because there are a lot of cynics out there and knowing this helps explain their action. This statement:

By that way of thinking, a president can only be held accountable for their crimes if the investigation and trial can be completed in four years.

Should worry you if you believe that cynicism is entrenched in our government, courts, economy, etc. I don't think it is and that is why I'm continuing this discussion.

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Roger A. Shrubber said:

i won't say the entrenched cynicism isn't a problem, i'm a lot more worried about the entrenched racism, bigotry, and elitist sense of entitlement. i think there is a lot more of that to go around than cynicism...

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cannabineer said:

I look at the two impeachments stopped purely by party politics, the Congressional drive to investigate the investigators and the suspension of the Committee as tokens of bad faith.
I imagine that if the GOP gains power in ‘24, we can kiss DOJ’s progress to date goodbye. It’ll be Mueller redux. The Republicans working en bloc have imo acquired a taste for institutional sabotage.

Is this legitimate fear that unrestricted partisanship is doing away with the effective rule of law, or is it the cynicism that you are addressing? I don’t know. I do know that I do not like the sensation that the values of the republic as I see them are being upheld by a narrow majority. It worries me.

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Fogdog said:

Cynicism is unreason. Cynicism poisons reason and therefore must be put aside when looking for answers. Simply to say that the end date of the Georgia investigation is "because the 2024 election" implies some sort of grand conspiracy that is ridiculous. But that's what a cynic can truthfully say, depending on their bias.. Before a skeptic would believe that, there must be evidence and where is it? As a skeptic, I do believe the Jan 6 attack on our Capitol Building was due to Trump's conspiracy to overthrow our election. There is plenty of evidence to support that. If there were none, I'd be looking for a different answer. But then again, I saw the whole thing play out between Nov 2020 and Jan 6, 2021, so I'm pretty much convinced. However, a cynic can explain anything from their view. They can make Democrats or Republicans the evil ones. Cynicsim unhinges a person from reality. As I said, cynicism is unreason and poisons a person's ability to think clearly.

Donald Trump is unusual in that he does only acts in what he perceives as his own interest. One can predict what he is going to do using that as a starting point. But he is a narcissist sociopath, which makes up maybe 5% of the population. Cynics believe Trump and everybody else are motivated purely by self interest. That is simply not true. A small number of people are like Trump. A small number would sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Everybody else fall in between the extremes.

So, yes, cynicism cannot be ignored because there are a lot of cynics out there and knowing this helps explain their action. This statement:

By that way of thinking, a president can only be held accountable for their crimes if the investigation and trial can be completed in four years.

Should worry you if you believe that cynicism is entrenched in our government, courts, economy, etc. I don't think it is and that is why I'm continuing this discussion.

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GenericEnigma said:

I do not believe cynicism is entrenched in our society so deeply that it is the matter of course. I would say it's the exception generally, with somewhat more prevalence in politics.

But, as it seems you assert, it is entrenched in MAGA (where the ends justify the means as well). And, unfortunately, the saner majority of Republican politicians are going along with the cynical MAGA wing of the legislative branch (mostly in the House). I think it's due to the error inherent in social media distortion, but I digress.

So though the House Republicans are not en bloc cynics, they acquiesce. This is from where originates my concern and suggestion that a drop-dead date is worth considering. I think it would be considered by the Democrats, not as a cynical ploy used exclusively to maintain power, but to inform the use of available tools to preserve our liberal democracy!

How it applies to, say, GA lies in the inherent uncertainty of an election outcome, specifically the 2024 election.

Do you disagree that the Democrats would consider it?

edit: spelling error

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cannabineer said:

I see no saner majority of Republicans. “By their acts you will know them”, and when they vote en bloc for stupid tax policy or some other way to stick it to the working class, their claim to sanity is false.

Show me the Republicans who voted yea on both impeachments. That’s a minimum requirement.

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