UV Suppliment Lighting

Gond00s said:
I guess so. but until then I guess I will just keep using my 4 foot sticks lol. what was the thing he showed you tho I saw it and I was like this don't tell me anything. but shit im not really upset having to replace bulbs every 4 grows that's not bad at all. that's like 9 bucks per bulb per grow that's not bad for more potency. but god damn I would like to have a uvb led that can compare to a pureuv just nothing really does.
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I really think you can get more life out of them then you're giving them credit for, brother. I think they are at 80% output at 2500-5000 hrs if I remember correctly. Don't quote me on that but I just remember seeing something along those lines.
The stuff he posted I think was in the "UV Supplementation" thread. But I'm pretty sure supplementation was spelled wrong in some weird way.
 
Airwalker16 said:
I really think you can get more life out of them then you're giving them credit for, brother. I think they are at 80% output at 2500-5000 hrs if I remember correctly. Don't quote me on that but I just remember seeing something along those lines.
The stuff he posted I think was in the "UV Supplementation" thread. But I'm pretty sure supplementation was spelled wrong in some weird way.
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im not sure but I just like replacing them because I notice they do get less strong after 4 grows but I bet I can go more than 4 that's for sure. I guess I will try that then to see if I can just run them longer each day. because by the fourth grow I usually have to run then a hour and a half where I would use like 60-75 a day. so who knows ill just try to get the most out of them and just run them long. just a little decrease it is their just not a horrible loss.
 
Gond00s said:
im not sure but I just like replacing them because I notice they do get less strong after 4 grows but I bet I can go more than 4 that's for sure. I guess I will try that then to see if I can just run them longer each day. because by the fourth grow I usually have to run then a hour and a half where I would use like 60-75 a day. so who knows ill just try to get the most out of them and just run them long. just a little decrease it is their just not a horrible loss.
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Airwalker16 said:
I really think you can get more life out of them then you're giving them credit for, brother. I think they are at 80% output at 2500-5000 hrs if I remember correctly. Don't quote me on that but I just remember seeing something along those lines.
The stuff he posted I think was in the "UV Supplementation" thread. But I'm pretty sure supplementation was spelled wrong in some weird way.
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Yeah, as we use the Agromax bulbs usually less than 1h per day they can literally last for ever. Even after 5000h you would still get 50% of the initial UVB output which is still 3 times as much UVB as one can get out of a 12% reptile bulb. And the spectrum is not affected which means you still have UVB down to 285nm. Such an old bulb could be use in the transition stage or in late veg to make the girls used to it and reduce stress. One could also further use them in the flowring area with twice the amount of time and still get the same effects.
The manufacturers want to sell bulbs, of course, which is why they recommend changing them after 1000-1500h. But then the tubes still work at 80% efficiency and a replacement is IMO only necessary if the loss cannot be compensated with a little more run time per day.
I've tested them only one time with dimmable ballast, only half as much output but I doubled the amount of time. The effects were the same and -more important- the stress and burnings the plants got were also the same. So it is nice to have but not really neccessary. I've found less stress and burnings when they get the daily UVB dosis right before lights out so they can recover in darkness. This way I can give them up to an hour per day in the late flowerimg stage without damaging them too much. I remember the "cigar leaves" they have formed as I've burned them their asses off with my 1st try, lol!
 
Randomblame said:
Yeah, as we use the Agromax bulbs usually less than 1h per day they can literally last for ever. Even after 5000h you would still get 50% of the initial UVB output which is still 3 times as much UVB as one can get out of a 12% reptile bulb. And the spectrum is not affected which means you still have UVB down to 285nm. Such an old bulb could be use in the transition stage or in late veg to make the girls used to it and reduce stress. One could also further use them in the flowring area with twice the amount of time and still get the same effects.
The manufacturers want to sell bulbs, of course, which is why they recommend changing them after 1000-1500h. But then the tubes still work at 80% efficiency and a replacement is IMO only necessary if the loss cannot be compensated with a little more run time per day.
I've tested them only one time with dimmable ballast, only half as much output but I doubled the amount of time. The effects were the same and -more important- the stress and burnings the plants got were also the same. So it is nice to have but not really neccessary. I've found less stress and burnings when they get the daily UVB dosis right before lights out so they can recover in darkness. This way I can give them up to an hour per day in the late flowerimg stage without damaging them too much. I remember the "cigar leaves" they have formed as I've burned them their asses off with my 1st try, lol!
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Very good to see you back and posting. This forum just got exponentially richer. Hope you are in good health.
 
Somebody correct me if im wrong on this: i think one of the main drivers of losing output is the firing up the tube. So the loss might be a bit more than what the actual hours works out if youre using it in 1-2h intervals.

I think nachooos approach with leds probably works better, as long as you can control temps (have your uv diodes on a independent and beefy heatsink), for spread, for being able to use at low hanging height and general power consumption.
At 4 diodes per meter of around 20$ per diode it seems quiet doable.
 
Rocket Soul said:
Somebody correct me if im wrong on this: i think one of the main drivers of losing output is the firing up the tube. So the loss might be a bit more than what the actual hours works out if youre using it in 1-2h intervals.

I think nachooos approach with leds probably works better, as long as you can control temps (have your uv diodes on a independent and beefy heatsink), for spread, for being able to use at low hanging height and general power consumption.
At 4 diodes per meter of around 20$ per diode it seems quiet doable.
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I’m pretty sure you would need way more than 4 diodes
 
Gond00s said:
I’m pretty sure you would need way more than 4 diodes
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I havent tried myself but i trust what ive seen and heard. Also note that theres plenty of uva diodes well spread out. Giving only uvb seems to be a bit touch and go, plants needs exposure to uva in order to harden before getting uvb. So uva allday starting from day one, first a little and then more, and adding uvb for a short time midday then increasing. But i think he never could go over 3hrs without some damage. 60mW output total, 15mW per diode for noticeable change both in high and terp proofile.
 
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Rocket Soul said:
I havent tried myself but i trust what ive seen and heard. Also note that theres plenty of uva diodes well spread out. Giving only uvb seems to be a bit touch and go, plants needs exposure to uva in order to harden before getting uvb. So uva allday starting from day one, first a little and then more, and adding uvb for a short time midday then increasing. But i think he never could go over 3hrs without some damage. 60mW output total, 15mW per diode for noticeable change both in high and terp proofile.
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uva doesn't do nearly as much as b and u want to have 385 to 285 because no one really knows how much u do need and what is needed to activate the uvr8 receptor. but from my experience heavy uvb is what really does the job for the plant. another thing I would have to say is doing it at the end of the light cycle so the plants can recover thru ought the whole night. When I ran my agros I did have way stronger terps so Idk I need to try solar cures see how they do compete with the agros. but I still don't trust uv leds yet not at least just because no one really knows how much of each spec u need to get the same results as the agro.
 
Gond00s said:
uva doesn't do nearly as much as b and u want to have 385 to 285 because no one really knows how much u do need and what is needed to activate the uvr8 receptor. but from my experience heavy uvb is what really does the job for the plant. another thing I would have to say is doing it at the end of the light cycle so the plants can recover thru ought the whole night. When I ran my agros I did have way stronger terps so Idk I need to try solar cures see how they do compete with the agros. but I still don't trust uv leds yet not at least just because no one really knows how much of each spec u need to get the same results as the agro.
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The thing about the agro is the hanging height, it doesnt work with the way we light the cannopy in the grow i work for. Power consumption is another issue. But each to their own. I tend to trust nacchooo on this, very few work their garden like he does with rare inland sativa genetics and lighting. But still anecdotal, no tests.
 
Rocket Soul said:
The thing about the agro is the hanging height, it doesnt work with the way we light the cannopy in the grow i work for. Power consumption is another issue. But each to their own. I tend to trust nacchooo on this, very few work their garden like he does with rare inland sativa genetics and lighting. But still anecdotal, no tests.
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Yup both have their owns pros and cons.with the agros when their a bit older u can run them closer to the plant but yes their very strong and its very easy to burn plants with the agros I ran only 15 mins for the first few weeks at the end of the day and just the 15 mins were enough to burn the fuck out of my plant but that was with the bulb being 2 feet away. I'm not sure but once the uv hits the plants it activates the receptor thru out the whole plant idk or it could be only the places that uv hits but idk I feel like it affects the whole system of the plant. just like how red increases the stretch of the plant idk would like more research into how uv really affects the whole plant. just imo its helpful but Jesus its overkill having to hang it 2+ feet. but that really depends on how much the bulb has been used I would have to guess maybe a bulb that's been used 3500hrs u can run longer and closer to the canopy idk im a stoner that likes toying with plants. :eyesmoke:
 
Gond00s said:
Yup both have their owns pros and cons.with the agros when their a bit older u can run them closer to the plant but yes their very strong and its very easy to burn plants with the agros I ran only 15 mins for the first few weeks at the end of the day and just the 15 mins were enough to burn the fuck out of my plant but that was with the bulb being 2 feet away. I'm not sure but once the uv hits the plants it activates the receptor thru out the whole plant idk or it could be only the places that uv hits but idk I feel like it affects the whole system of the plant. just like how red increases the stretch of the plant idk would like more research into how uv really affects the whole plant. just imo its helpful but Jesus its overkill having to hang it 2+ feet. but that really depends on how much the bulb has been used I would have to guess maybe a bulb that's been used 3500hrs u can run longer and closer to the canopy idk im a stoner that likes toying with plants. :eyesmoke:
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Agree on all of that, especially the whole plant response for toughening up an increasing thc. Or at least its the way my thinkking leans towards.


As for ripening, it might very well be that uv ripens the plant uneven, top buds first and lowers later.

2 feet and 15 mins: i really feel this isnt ideal, or id prefer running closer andd lower doses for longer time. Uvb also has a very strong effect on transpiration/opening the stomata. So i figure a lower dose for a bit longer will lead to better nutrient uptake. Better to have your plants digesting uvb for longer time at softer dose if its praying while doing so.

I dont wanna be forced to run main lights at 2 feet losing intensity (open space here) or having the uv hanging over our mainlight and the light blocking the path of the uvb.
Also the 360° nature of uv tubes means your relying on reflectors turn the light instead of leds which send all the light rhe right way. All these reasons, along with nachooos word re smoke noticeable difference in his cultivar which he knows really well (anecdotal proof was smoking gave him coldsweats in a real cold room and some of his terps changed drastically) has got me thinking that led is probably right for the grow i work for.
Maybe some day there would be a chance to ruun tests, nachooos not far away from me and i thinkt tests are just 30-40euros here, but right now theyve confined the fuck out of us, 11 weeks pretty much, so that would be a distant future project. I know for a fact that nachooo is a datanerd so i wouldnt be surprised if his up for it.
 
Rocket Soul said:
Agree on all of that, especially the whole plant response for toughening up an increasing thc. Or at least its the way my thinkking leans towards.


As for ripening, it might very well be that uv ripens the plant uneven, top buds first and lowers later.

2 feet and 15 mins: i really feel this isnt ideal, or id prefer running closer andd lower doses for longer time. Uvb also has a very strong effect on transpiration/opening the stomata. So i figure a lower dose for a bit longer will lead to better nutrient uptake. Better to have your plants digesting uvb for longer time at softer dose if its praying while doing so.

I dont wanna be forced to run main lights at 2 feet losing intensity (open space here) or having the uv hanging over our mainlight and the light blocking the path of the uvb.
Also the 360° nature of uv tubes means your relying on reflectors turn the light instead of leds which send all the light rhe right way. All these reasons, along with nachooos word re smoke noticeable difference in his cultivar which he knows really well (anecdotal proof was smoking gave him coldsweats in a real cold room and some of his terps changed drastically) has got me thinking that led is probably right for the grow i work for.
Maybe some day there would be a chance to ruun tests, nachooos not far away from me and i thinkt tests are just 30-40euros here, but right now theyve confined the fuck out of us, 11 weeks pretty much, so that would be a distant future project. I know for a fact that nachooo is a datanerd so i wouldnt be surprised if his up for it.
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well all in the end u have to remember the amount of uvb given off is just insane so maybe try to raise them and try to run them a bit higher. but this is coming from someone that just hangs lights pretty high usually 30 or so inches. then I have my agros about a inch under them. very strong at this height but usually when the plant gets some uvb it just hardens to it making it just not get as damaged. with diodes its just such a small area they really cover well. I'm not sure on how true this is so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. I've read about how uva helps with making the uvr8 receptor more susceptible to the effect of uvb so lets say 285-305. so this is why I'm thinking the bulbs are better in general idk I could be very wrong and it could be just one certain spectrum that activates it but that's what I've read at least.

Mid retake because I reread what u said and u meant your main lights. I understand that and that's why leds would prob help ya but its just idk what spectrums of uv are needed to match the agro. well just remember both have pros and cons I just wanna know what I would need for spec wise to really emulate the agros.
 
Gond00s said:
well all in the end u have to remember the amount of uvb given off is just insane so maybe try to raise them and try to run them a bit higher. but this is coming from someone that just hangs lights pretty high usually 30 or so inches. then I have my agros about a inch under them. very strong at this height but usually when the plant gets some uvb it just hardens to it making it just not get as damaged. with diodes its just such a small area they really cover well. I'm not sure on how true this is so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. I've read about how uva helps with making the uvr8 receptor more susceptible to the effect of uvb so lets say 285-305. so this is why I'm thinking the bulbs are better in general idk I could be very wrong and it could be just one certain spectrum that activates it but that's what I've read at least.

Mid retake because I reread what u said and u meant your main lights. I understand that and that's why leds would prob help ya but its just idk what spectrums of uv are needed to match the agro. well just remember both have pros and cons I just wanna know what I would need for spec wise to really emulate the agros.
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In an open space without reflective walls it gets a bit unfeasible to run the lights that high, at least for us with the cost, and wanting to keep the power signature down. Think commercial red state. We use mostly leds similar to fotop boards, well spread out, running them soft and close, this works very well with evenness and spread. So many times we are around 8" from canopy. Edit: in our new place it looks like cmh is king cause the space wont heat up much at all but. But summer is coming...
I agree, youd need a nice spread of uva over various wavelengths making sure you hit at least 360ish; this is the main reactive wavelength in uva.
 
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Rocket Soul said:
Somebody correct me if im wrong on this: i think one of the main drivers of losing output is the firing up the tube. So the loss might be a bit more than what the actual hours works out if youre using it in 1-2h intervals.

I think nachooos approach with leds probably works better, as long as you can control temps (have your uv diodes on a independent and beefy heatsink), for spread, for being able to use at low hanging height and general power consumption.
At 4 diodes per meter of around 20$ per diode it seems quiet doable.
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If the primary issue in output loss is turning on than it doesn't matter if it's used for one hour or twelve per day since it's only turning on once a day regardless.
 
Below I've added a science paper the guys from SETi/SeoulViosys have made. They have used the latest research available and they have done own tests and have developed these SeoulViosys 285nm diodes we can get now from digikey.
In short, it's a 0,6w diode using 100mA at 6v and each diode produce 10mW/m². The output is pretty linear and with 150mA you would get almost 15mW. Maximum is 200mA but UVB diodes are very heat sensitive and I would not recommend to drive them that hard.

But lets make a quick calculation and lets say you have 6 of them and want to use them inside a 2x 4' tent with 0,72m². If you use a 3s2p circuit you could use a cheap 3$ ebay driver made for 5-7x 1w LED's. These diodes are expensive enough and you can buy 2 spare drivers if you want but they only run 1-2h per day so they will last at least a few runs. This drivers have 300mA but usually its more like 270 or 280mA. With 270mA each diode would get 135mA so in this case you would have at least 13mW x 6=78mW/s/m².

The recommended minimum UVB dose one need to get the desired results is around 360J/m²/day(see pdf). You can use more when the plants are used to it but of course only up to a certain point. To calculate J/m² we only have to multiply the output per sec. by the amount of seconds the light is switched on because 1J equals to 1W/s. So lets say you let it run for one hour you have to multiply 78 x 3600 (which is 60sec x 60mins) and get 280.800mJ or 280J and because its still for 1m² we need to divide it by 0,72m². So with this setup you could calculate having around 390J/m² in 1 hour inside your 2x4' area. So, who says one can not calculate the neccessary UVB dose? Its actually pretty simple to do that with LED's. Easier as with the bulbs...
With bulbs and 2-3' distance -or actually at any distance- you would need a UVB meter measuring the UVB radiation in mW at canopy level. Without these numbers its almost impossible to calculate how much you really have when using these bulbs. For this reason we Agromax pureUV owners have always to use the "try and error technique" to find the optimal dose for a certain hanging height.
In the late flowering stage I have the bulbs hanging only 12" above the canopy so that there is almost no UVB light hitting the walls but the 2' wide canopy is fully covered. With this short distance the bulbs run usually only 10-15mins before lights off and its more than enough. I always see heat stress and curled up leaf margins but its impossible to have the bulb behind my main fixture. It would block or reflect most of the light and almost nothing would reach down to the plants. 8-12inch is my optimal hanging height and using 6-8 of these diodes will make it much easier.

Its also not absolutely neccessary to combine them with UVA diodes because the self repair mechanism caused by certain UVA wavelengths also occur when plants are getting certain blue wavelengths. You can add 385nm diodes to trigger these mechanisms at several wavelengths and it may helps the plants to recover even better but you can just use white and UVB diodes without getting problems.
 

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I did read pretty far into this thread - lots of info!

I might try the 2 T8 UVA tubes I have on my next flowering - they aren't black lights and have even coverage.

I also have two 405nm LED lights - 3.4w each (at the wall).
Is that spectrum worth using?
Are those small lights worth supplementing with in a 4X4 / 2000ish w tent?
 

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Randomblame said:
Below I've added a science paper the guys from SETi/SeoulViosys have made. They have used the latest research available and they have done own tests and have developed these SeoulViosys 285nm diodes we can get now from digikey.
In short, it's a 0,6w diode using 100mA at 6v and each diode produce 10mW/m². The output is pretty linear and with 150mA you would get almost 15mW. Maximum is 200mA but UVB diodes are very heat sensitive and I would not recommend to drive them that hard.

But lets make a quick calculation and lets say you have 6 of them and want to use them inside a 2x 4' tent with 0,72m². If you use a 3s2p circuit you could use a cheap 3$ ebay driver made for 5-7x 1w LED's. These diodes are expensive enough and you can buy 2 spare drivers if you want but they only run 1-2h per day so they will last at least a few runs. This drivers have 300mA but usually its more like 270 or 280mA. With 270mA each diode would get 135mA so in this case you would have at least 13mW x 6=78mW/s/m².

The recommended minimum UVB dose one need to get the desired results is around 360J/m²/day(see pdf). You can use more when the plants are used to it but of course only up to a certain point. To calculate J/m² we only have to multiply the output per sec. by the amount of seconds the light is switched on because 1J equals to 1W/s. So lets say you let it run for one hour you have to multiply 78 x 3600 (which is 60sec x 60mins) and get 280.800mJ or 280J and because its still for 1m² we need to divide it by 0,72m². So with this setup you could calculate having around 390J/m² in 1 hour inside your 2x4' area. So, who says one can not calculate the neccessary UVB dose? Its actually pretty simple to do that with LED's. Easier as with the bulbs...
With bulbs and 2-3' distance -or actually at any distance- you would need a UVB meter measuring the UVB radiation in mW at canopy level. Without these numbers its almost impossible to calculate how much you really have when using these bulbs. For this reason we Agromax pureUV owners have always to use the "try and error technique" to find the optimal dose for a certain hanging height.
In the late flowering stage I have the bulbs hanging only 12" above the canopy so that there is almost no UVB light hitting the walls but the 2' wide canopy is fully covered. With this short distance the bulbs run usually only 10-15mins before lights off and its more than enough. I always see heat stress and curled up leaf margins but its impossible to have the bulb behind my main fixture. It would block or reflect most of the light and almost nothing would reach down to the plants. 8-12inch is my optimal hanging height and using 6-8 of these diodes will make it much easier.

Its also not absolutely neccessary to combine them with UVA diodes because the self repair mechanism caused by certain UVA wavelengths also occur when plants are getting certain blue wavelengths. You can add 385nm diodes to trigger these mechanisms at several wavelengths and it may helps the plants to recover even better but you can just use white and UVB diodes without getting problems.
Click to expand...
This is basically exactly what @nachooo did.
 
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