You haven't proven anything, thats the problem with most of your posts, they are just opinion, you never post facts or statistics that back up your claims, and since you use a lot of vitriol when dealing with others I'm afraid that most of your posts are considered opinion puff pieces. Not to say your opinion doesn't count, its very obvious you 100% believe in your point of view and to that I would give rep, but you have to earn it first. I enjoy your posts to be honest, gives me something to look forward to reading.
The Poorhouse: Aunt Winnie, Glenn Beck, And The Politics Of The New Deal
- Thread starter UncleBuck
- Start date
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
Im sorry, I tried to put up statistics on another thread, which induces your next instinct which is to say the data is invalid. Which is probably what you are about to do with this.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
most of the health data is sourced from the world fact book as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
There are other sources for this, however this compiles all the info very concisely, like wiki or not.
So um, have fun categorically trying to dismantle the data's integrity as it doesn't line up with what you believe.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
most of the health data is sourced from the world fact book as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
There are other sources for this, however this compiles all the info very concisely, like wiki or not.
So um, have fun categorically trying to dismantle the data's integrity as it doesn't line up with what you believe.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
that is not what the state of texas (that bastion of liberalism) says about it.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2b5_1280670442
so you see, once again NLXSK has it not only wrong, but completely wrong. he makes being only a little wrong look like a good option. many people who are often only slightly wrong would do well to associate with NLSXK in order to make themselves look less severely wrong in comparison and thus, better.
also, your assertion that tort reform will magically fix healthcare costs is wrong. it is not only a small fraction of the costs compared to things like administrative costs and others, but it will not do anything to bend the cost line down, it will only shift down very slightly a line that is still bending upwards.
as far as your oh so optimistic statement that 'we will never see lower rates no matter what'...i would ask, does 'no matter what' include doing something like germany has done, where health insurance companies are competing non-profits and people don't lose their insurance if they lose their job (incidentally, when you need insurance the most)? how about if we do something like taiwan, which would slash administrative costs more than in half (currently, about 22% - 24% of health care costs are administrative and have to do with denying those with pre existing conditions or those who have paid their whole life but get dropped once sick). does that qualify in your rosy assessment as 'no matter what'?
I can only guess at what you are trying to prove with the Data, you didn't make a statement and then try to prove it correct, you just linked data, I can infer all sorts of things from your data, you need an argument to go with it.
Here is what I can infer with your data:
Healthcare in the USA is expensive, the data does not tell us why that is.
life expectancy is 78 years old in the US, again there is nothing that states why this is. The life expectancy was only 35 back when this country was founded, so I would say we are doing pretty well.
Finally, the US has the highest corporate income tax in the world, but the personal income tax isn't so bad, but 36% of the populace doesn't even pay any.
There ya go, your argument has somewhat been deflated and I didn't have to dismantle the data.
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
Investment and capital expenditures most assuredly create and sustain employment.
The affluent provide both.
But the market has not been receptive because for the last few years it has been scared to death due to the uncertainty. Hopefully this is changing now that the Progressive Trifecta has been broken on the rocks of the Tea Party.
The leading edge of the Baby Boom generation hit retirement age only yesterday.
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
Those links were used in the public option post from earlier. If you can't connect the dots, then I can't do much more. US 6k per capita expenditure, Germany - 3 K per capita expenditure, Switzerland - 3K. It is hard proof that our system is inferior to theirs. It is proof that health care open markets, with a public option make health care sustainable, ending medicare.
The tax data is there to show you the correlations of our mean tax percentages to theirs, and show you how much more they are getting for the money than we are.
Quality must be pretty good if they are beating the crap out of us on the entire spectrum of health statistics.
cant get much more pointed than that...
The tax data is there to show you the correlations of our mean tax percentages to theirs, and show you how much more they are getting for the money than we are.
Quality must be pretty good if they are beating the crap out of us on the entire spectrum of health statistics.
cant get much more pointed than that...
http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/price.aspx
http://www.cars.com/rolls-royce/ghost/2010/
Hard proof Rolls Royce is inferior to Honda Accord.
Hard proof that Honda accords are inferior to Yugo's
http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/price.aspx
http://www99.epinions.com/specs/auto_Make-1991_Yugo_GV
http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/price.aspx
http://www99.epinions.com/specs/auto_Make-1991_Yugo_GV
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
never driven a yugo, but based upon my wonderful experience with those everlasting japanese auto-velocitators, i would think that quite a stretch.
doc111
Well-Known Member
Hard proof?
lmfao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
doc111
Well-Known Member
Oh really?
I pick my battles. Some things are just too ridiculous to dignify with an intelligent response. 
Isn't your bridge getting lonely?
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
Difference is that less than 10,000 people have a rolls royce in the US, Everyone has at least an Accord. And if you actually knew a thing or two about following through, you would have seen that their system provides better across the board results, so I guess they are all driving a lexus, while here, a vast minority have a Rolls, some have a lexus, most have an accord, and 40 million have to walk.
Way to completely ignore to address what the data is saying and put up a childish analogy with no bearing at all to this conversation.
Racking up the points quick are we?
How much more can you run away from? This is a debate, not hide and seek.
Doc: Find different stats from a better source...
(kinda called that whole libertarian knee jerk response of "I don't agree with it, so it must be false")
Way to completely ignore to address what the data is saying and put up a childish analogy with no bearing at all to this conversation.
Racking up the points quick are we?
How much more can you run away from? This is a debate, not hide and seek.
Doc: Find different stats from a better source...
(kinda called that whole libertarian knee jerk response of "I don't agree with it, so it must be false")
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
I saw him put up a thoughtful well constructed argument and watched a bunch of people construct straw men and proceed to beat the shit out of them.
Maybe that is why liberals are so screwed up. You guys dont seem to be able to grasp reality very well... As long as it makes you feel good eh?
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
His point (which you seem to have missed completely) is that you can pick a statistic to prove anything.
Unless you can show that people from all these countries have comparable medical care with comparably trained doctors then your cost figures are pointless. In addition to that fact, the governments of those countries use rationing and inferior care to keep their costs down.
Obama told me I could keep my doctor. My doctor formed a collective and told me I would have to pay $1500 dollars per year on top of my insurance if I wanted to stay with his practice. So, I really couldnt keep my doctor eh?
What this is creating is a two tiered health system where the rich will continue to get high quality care and the middle class will be pushed into a medicade/VA system where there are long waiting lists, limited medication choices, etc.
The direction you want this to go will provide lower quality care with less trained doctors.
no it won't. there is ZERO proof that switzerland uses rationing and lower quality care. reality says otherwise, you're just too much of a dumbass to realize it.
there is TONS AND TONS of proof that they are receiving better care for their buck. they have lower obesity rates, infant deaths are at a level that's statistically similar to that of the US, they have longer life expectancy, and more people can afford their health care costs. all the while they spend less per capita on health care while covering nearly all of the people living within those borders.
how is this not enough proof that their system works better than ours????????????????????
PLEASE, EXPLAIN!!!! PLEASE!!! I'M BEGGING YOU!!!!!
and let's not forget: nearly half of all personal bankrupcies in the US are initiated because the family couldn't afford the costs associated with caring for a sick family member.
so yeah, if you get a life-threatening condition in the US, not only will your family have to deal with the heart-ache of suffering through the possibility of loosing a family member, but they'll probably loose everything else in the process.
so yeah, if you get a life-threatening condition in the US, not only will your family have to deal with the heart-ache of suffering through the possibility of loosing a family member, but they'll probably loose everything else in the process.
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
I am telling you that you cannot compare something as incredibly complex as 2 nations healthcare when one is a tiny country of a couple million and the other one is 300 million plus.
Lower obesity rates? WTF does that have to do with healthcare? Americans eat too much and dont exercise, that is a cultural issue. Maybe they have longer life expectancy because they dont eat too much and exercise more. What, do you want the government to start controlling how much food you can eat and how much exercise you have to do? Because that seems to be the way it is going (California just banned trans-fats in restaurants).
Everybody is in agreement that they want better health care for lower costs.
But to do that you cannot rely on a central planning authority and expect commandments sent down from Washington to be the best solution for every person. And this tremendous pile of crap that is Obamacare does not make things less expensive, or easier to get or anything that was promised you. It is a welfare program for 30 million people and an unconstitional mandate that forces everyone but the poor to buy insurance.
medicineman
New Member
No, actually he is right. Other countries have adequate healthcare for much less per capita. Since we are the leader in medical breakthroughs, high dollar equipment and the oft quoted superior medical technicians (Dr.s), the rich do come here for "better treatment". It is the rest of us that have to suffer for piss poor medical for twice the cost. The only people really benefitting from our medical system are the insurance companies, the HMOs, and the private hospitals, all are raping and pillaging while trying ever harder to provide less or worse service. By having a strong government presence in health care, the providers would have to provide adequate service or risk losing their franchise. Ask me if I'm sympathetic for them. They have been fucking over the American people for profit for decades, with no real quality product. The only ones getting quality health care are the rich, from all countries, but the other first world countries at least provide health care to all, which in even less than perfect conditions beats the hell out of our system, which is either pay-up or die. Without a strong public option, this new health care bill is just a giveaway to the already outlandishly priced health care providers named above. The real solution, of course, is universal coverage, funded by a tax increase on the rich.
i went to college, and in there, in a classroom, getting my learning on, i learned about 'test markets'.
that's when a company tests the viability of an operation by doing something on a small scale. the idea is that results in test markets will be similar to that of the entire market. the population and size difference are irrelevant.
so yeah, you CAN compare the two, because they are similar:
1) both nations are considered 'industrialized'.
2)both nations have strong central governments.
3) both nations fall within the top per-capita spenders on health care in the world.
THEY ARE COMPARABLE IN ALMOST EVERY WAY, SHAPE AND FORM. possibly the most significant difference between the two is the language being spoken.
and to answer your question: What does obesity rates have to do with health care??
Source: WebMD. http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/obesity-health-risks
obesity rates are not a cultural issue, as your stupid politicians have led you to believe.
it's a health care issue, like EVERY DOCTOR SAYS IT IS.