Jimdamick
Well-Known Member
Yea, but we'll get thru it eventually, it's just a shame about the wasted time & lives lost due to one idiot.
Fuck Trump
TURN IT UP!!!!!
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So, how's Trump doing?
- Thread starter Jimdamick
- Start date
Fuck Trump
TURN IT UP!!!!!
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
People won't forget what they were FORCED to do in a dire situation. If they are forced to use gizmo's they will need a geek or two who built them there squeezing the bag if they fuck up and keeping things running for the medical staff. A truly shitty solution that will be studied in the future as some Phd thesis as will all aspects of this fiasco. If they are used (and I hope not) it will be for as short a time as possible or perhaps to remove other kinds of patients from good quality ventilators. If ya gotta pull the plug on someone anyway, why not transfer them to a gizmo and hope for the best. desperate times, desperate measures, totally unnecessary as we both know. The sooner such solutions are relegated to the junk heap the better IMHO.
People won't forget what happened to them, their parents and grandparents, at least the normal ones won't, you won't and neither will I. When oversight hearings start on this shit this summer after the crest of the wave has passed a bit, then you will see the shit hit the fan, Donald has no idea what is about to happen to his ass when the papers are all signed and Nancy is ready, she misses her grandkids and is pissed. He couldn't seem to look ahead to the consequences of the pandemic and I figure it's the same with the congressional oversight hearings, that will be a major mistake.
Could be that Trump won by getting you and others to deal with fantasy, rather than reality. The reality is that you are not making the decisions, you are not running the ICU and Trump did not throw a billion dollars at it.
Without ventilators, people will die. That is not my opinion, that is fact.
BTW, I didn't come here advocating the simple machines, I simply posted a couple links.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Your links sell false hope. There are reasons why conventional ventilators are complex and there are reasons why regulations are in place and there are reasons why you don't want to flood ICUs with a variety of makes and models of ventilators made from various small operators. This isn't where resources, time and effort should go. Trump turned down an offer from GM to do exactly what could have been done to save lives. So, now a new shiny object is held up, just like chloroquine, to distract people from the blunders Trump and Republicans are making.
At the end of all this, if the US invests in these so-called simple ventilators, I'm certain we'll find that graft and corruption is at the bottom of all of it. We'll find that the so-called simple machines that were intended to save lives actually took them. Trump should have taken GM up on it's offer.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
OK, so, we let this (IMO) crap go into ICUs. Do we also waive peoples rights to sue manufacturers and hospitals for negligence if people are killed by them?
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Most of the Canadian population lives in a strip within 100 miles of the US border and it is fairly densely populated in many places, up north there's trees and tundra. Toronto has half the population of New York and most Canadians live in cities like Americans, not igloos. We had about 2 million globetrotters come home, but more orderly than the Americans who trump had packed into airports, spreading the virus. We have about 1/5 the death rate as the USA and the difference is due to Donald and Donald alone, we started at the same place. Even now he isn't having a national shutdown to kill the bug, he has yet to involve the power of the US military logistical planners and there are thousands of them. His dithering is killing the US economy and the agony will be longer than it needs to be, thanks for that BTW.
rkymtnman
Well-Known Member
i read an article the other day that was saying most doctors don't even know how to use the basic functions. only the RN's. and now there are going to be 5 different "homemade" models that all work differently? recipe for disaster.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
That appears to be what is happening foggy, I was just chatting with a fellow who runs a seniors home, liability has beas waived for many things. I have no argument with your contentions, I'm in agreement, I'm just observing the facts of the situation. Like abandon with the coronavirus, folks were ahead of the media on these issues and others, RIU serves its members well! Like I said this is not my favored option, having a large supply of the same high quality machines makes maintenance, logistics and training staff easier and quicker. The pros are making the calls here foggy, we are just chatting on an obscure pot forum and trying to help and support one another to the extent we can. I'll post what's going on and keep trying to find what helps, even a little bit. My opinion on ventilators ain't worth shit, but I'm interested in innovation and the efforts to make a difference at all levels! War is Hell foggy, but you can't be down about it, optimism gets shit done, gets ya in shit too.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Waiving liabilities is an admission that these machines will kill people. Waiving liabilities is an admission that hospitals will kill people because they didn't know how to run the equipment properly.That appears to be what is happening foggy, I was just chatting with a fellow who runs a seniors home, liability has beas waived for many things. I have no argument with your contentions, I'm in agreement, I'm just observing the facts of the situation. Like abandon with the coronavirus, folks were ahead of the media on these issues and others, RIU serves its members well! Like I said this is not my favored option, having a large supply of the same high quality machines makes maintenance, logistics and training staff easier and quicker. The pros are making the calls here foggy, we are just chatting on an obscure pot forum and trying to help and support one another to the extent we can. I'll post what's going on and keep trying to find what helps, even a little bit. My opinion on ventilators ain't worth shit, but I'm interested in innovation and the efforts to make a difference at all levels! War is Hell foggy, but you can't be down about it, optimism gets shit done, gets ya in shit too.
People who depending on a ventilator are very sick, they may depend on that equipment for every breath they take for months and we should not choose to waive regulations so that a flood of unfamiliar and untested equipment is shoved into ICUs. This is not a matter of weighing pros and cons. You don't put unreliable equipment into ICUs under these conditions. If people do that then they are not working in the public's best interests. Weighing pros and cons shouldn't mean choosing more deaths, which is that policy would cause.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Exactly right. People like to use a war analogy to excuse the idea of rushing equipment into ICUs but the military standardizes equipment in order to avoid confusion in operating equipment during times of crisis. Also, parts and repair should be considered. Five different machines requires parts for five different machines and training to service five different machines. The military chooses to standardize equipment so that in an emergency, supplies can be shifted to where they are needed and people will know what to do with them when they arrive.
rkymtnman
Well-Known Member
yep, totally agree. i worked on an Army base and there would be 3 or 4 different manufacturers but making the same exact thing. or they had their contract taken away.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
It's a shitty situation and your screwed which ever way you turn, its war and war on the home front, large numbers of people are dying and moms and dads blur into overwhelming tragic statistics. I'm a student of history foggy and while it does not repeat, history often echos and some of the answers are to be found in the past along with the horrors. They say the truth is the first casualty of war, but it's actually morals and ethics that are thrown out the window first. We are gonna be in for quite the horror show on TV and perhaps in our lives, we're all in it together, but you folks are in deeper than ya got to be and it's gonna hurt more than it has to. Speaking of history, it's starting to look like Hitler's downfall and you know what happened to Germany then, Canada is a bit like Austria in that situation, we go down with ya, economically at least, so we are in it together there too.
Unless America deals with this effectively and decisively it will drag out through the summer and the economy will be fucked bigly. A sharp disciplined reset and a plan to restart with PPE and testing, lots of both to get the economy going fast, that's our plan here and it's becoming clearer every day.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
It is actually going to drag out into the summer because Trump's followers were told this is a hoax. But I can't be made to agree to what I'm certain is the wrong thing to do just because others have decided to act the fool.
Being at war doesn't mean suspending disbelief. Actually, a harsh sense of reality should be one's guide.
It is actually going to drag out into the summer because Trump's followers were told this is a hoax. But I can't be made to agree to what I'm certain is the wrong thing to do just because others have decided to act the fool.
Dreaming1
Well-Known Member
Wait...i was told this is a cold and nothing to worry about. Now it's a problem? Maybe get Jared on it. Trump's a genius, but jared makes him look like he has extra chromosones. I'm sure with leadership like this, america will be fine. We'll get this money thing sorted out quick.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Being at war doesn't mean suspending disbelief. Actually, a harsh sense of reality should be one's guide.
It is actually going to drag out into the summer because Trump's followers were told this is a hoax. But I can't be made to agree to what I'm certain is the wrong thing to do just because others have decided to act the fool.
[/QUOTE]
Generally we stick to our principles until ordered to do otherwise, most obey, even immoral orders. That's why courage is the queen of all virtues, for without courage, none of the others are possible. Go with the courage of your convictions, your conscience is your best guide in unfamiliar territory of novel situations like war, where ethical or even moral standards don't exist, just the imperatives of survival.
It is actually going to drag out into the summer because Trump's followers were told this is a hoax. But I can't be made to agree to what I'm certain is the wrong thing to do just because others have decided to act the fool.
[/QUOTE]
Generally we stick to our principles until ordered to do otherwise, most obey, even immoral orders. That's why courage is the queen of all virtues, for without courage, none of the others are possible. Go with the courage of your convictions, your conscience is your best guide in unfamiliar territory of novel situations like war, where ethical or even moral standards don't exist, just the imperatives of survival.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Generally we stick to our principles until ordered to do otherwise, most obey, even immoral orders. That's why courage is the queen of all virtues, for without courage, none of the others are possible. Go with the courage of your convictions, your conscience is your best guide in unfamiliar territory of novel situations like war, where ethical or even moral standards don't exist, just the imperatives of survival.
[/QUOTE]
This isn't war. Nobody is shooting at us and the virus isn't a hostile enemy. I think that you are counseling panic when you talk about using faulty equipment in ICUs.
This is all idle talk, right? What I think will happen is the medical establishment will push hard against being forced to use the so-called "simple" ventilators and Trump will use that as another bone to pick with "the deep state". I'm sorry but I think you are clueless about the idea of optimism winning the day. The people who will save the most lives are the ones who are dispassionate professionals. The "steely eyed rocket man", so to speak, is the one who is going to win the day for us.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Donald Trump is an idiot and an obstacle to people working hard to save lives.
What is your solution?
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
I think I said it.
First, pay GM whatever they want to produce something like 40,000 ventilators within the next 6 months with first thousand or so to be delivered in a couple of weeks. I'm referring to this: article
Concurrently, find and train staff,
Concurrently find and build ICU capacity.
Do not waive regulations, work to shorten time to meet them.
Do Not flood ICUs with untested and unfamiliar equipment.
I'd throw money at this problem. Overspend but include funds for testing and independent inspectors. I'd also look at more than just GM/Ventec. I'd also find another partnership between a large manufacturer with an established maker of a well known and proven ventilator.
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DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
This isn't war. Nobody is shooting at us and the virus isn't a hostile enemy. I think that you are counseling panic when you talk about using faulty equipment in ICUs.
This is all idle talk, right? What I think will happen is the medical establishment will push hard against being forced to use the so-called "simple" ventilators and Trump will use that as another bone to pick with "the deep state". I'm sorry but I think you are clueless about the idea of optimism winning the day. The people who will save the most lives are the ones who are dispassionate professionals. The "steely eyed rocket man", so to speak, is the one who is going to win the day for us.
[/QUOTE]
No, not idle talk just a different perspective. War is more than a metaphor in this situation, the problems are organizational and logistical in nature, people are dying and medical staff will suffer from PTSD over this. The troops need armor and equipment, the crisis deepens and the death toll rises. Being a perfectionist shouldn't cost lives, neither should your ideals. Stop accusing me and others of being unethical junk salesmen for posting and discussing the news. I guess you have a low opinion of your many engineering colleagues who are busting a nut desperately looking for solutions. Judge the folks at MIT and the dozens of other engineering open source ventilator projects not us. Write to your professional association and say you are appalled that anybody would even attempt it, they have online forums too where this is hotly debated, see what they think about it, you'll find a debate.