PH WTF!!

Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
SSHZ said:
To further the conversation, most people who switch off to a plain bloom fertilizer when they turn the light back to 12/12 will have early yellowing- pot plants use a lot of N, more than most plants. Today's bloom fertilizer don't have enough N in them so you have to supplement a bit for a few weeks.

Here's what I do. The first two weeks of flowering I continue to use veg fertilizer. Then in week 3 and 4 I use veg/bloom at a 50/50 rate. Then in weeks 5, 6, and 7 I use just bloom fert. The last two weeks nothing. I should also mention I always use a cal/mag additive, currently Botanicare Cal/Mag at 10ml per gallon since I use r.o. water. If you use regular tap water, 5ml should be ok.

Below is my current grow of Green Poison in flowering.....see, no yellowing in flowering. I have a current G.P. grow going on RIU if you want to follow it along, it may be helpful.

Click to expand...
Ah HAH! I see you don't have to fool with anything as you actually feed properly ! NICE GARDEN! But I knew that form the past...Just on the edge of high N.......Pretty!
 
GOLDBERG71

GOLDBERG71

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
Not doing organic are we?

In organic - no need to adjust or - even check the soils pH.

Now, I've never been a big Promix fan or any big fan of media's that are soil substitutes as it's "kinda" synthetic use only stuff.....Give me EWC and compost in there some where.....They do run with the needed pH monitoring rule! I have to interject something here though.......The idea that 6.5 is THE spot for pH all run long and that a tic lower is alright is kinda malarkey! ANY type of soil mix that you run with a pH value that is 6.5, should be considered a "soil" grow. Soil grows should be run with a VEG. pH of 6.5 and a BLOOM pH of 6.7..... And there's MY 2 cents on that! I found that if I keep any "soil & synthetic" grow at those levels of all ingoing being pH'ed to. I have happier and better yielding plants! The minor shift in bloom reduces/slows/stalls early or even what some might call "natural" yellowing by keeping N more available during that time....

There are nutrient makers (many), whose formulations "hide" a higher N concentration then they list up front to attempt to do the same thing - slow down that excess P yellowing....It doesn't work so well that way. Many of them "hide" that N in supplements in varying degree's that all add up too! You DON'T need that! pH in bloom to 6.7......



HOLD IT! NOT a good idea to use hydrated lime!!! Too strong and easy to screw the pooch FAST with it!....I'd stick with your wood ash - and be careful with that too! It's easier to add more then to have to back off with damaged plants!!!!

So then - rule of thumb for synthetics is to pH all in-going in veg to 6.5 and in bloom 6.7 and forget about the pH of the media!

I know bug you love to do the run off thing.....not accurate and time consuming for newbies bro!

Now then, OP,,,,why in the HELL are you going to "flush" anything? Have you built up a salt condition? Dumping multiple times the pot size in water through it will only further screw with your pH if it's really the problem.....Just water any overage condition out with plain pH'ed water......maybe a little Kelp extract and a Ca/Mg would help here too......depends on how bad your problem is..

Your plants looked low N to me.....feed them!
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No organics PRO MIX CUT 50/50 with course perlite. When I tried the trio of additives I had a soil meter. So I raised the PH to 6.5. D lime I didn't test because it really doesn't adjust PH in any measurable way when mixing the soil. BUT YES BE VERY CAREFUL WOOD ASH MOVES THE NEEDLE QUICKLY AS WELL!

Pro mix really isn't a soil. It's a PH neutral sterile medium that's basically a blank slate. A purely "clean" for lack of a better word medium. There is absolutely nothing other than a little bit of D lime in it. The reason I love it is because there's nothing in there before I put it in there. So I put in what it needs when it needs it. The other reason I do this is because (although I don't have problems) when I started it eliminated any guessing on how my soil mix is reacting months after I mixed.

I understand organics some make it sound easy. I'm just not one to read someone's soil mixture and go out and trust them enough to risk a whole grow on it. And I've gone through the trial and error and have all the kinks worked out. So I'm practicing KISS method at this point. Keep It Simple Stupid.
I wasn't saying use hydrated lime I couldn't recall the name SND that guy named it. I was just confirming that was what I was talking about.

But I still say if you feed property as I do. You don't need to add any lime to the pro mix. Possible if you were keeping mothers for a long period of time. But if you're transplanting in to bigger containers as needed it's unnecessary. But won't hurt.
 
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GOLDBERG71

GOLDBERG71

Well-Known Member
SSHZ said:
To further the conversation, most people who switch off to a plain bloom fertilizer when they turn the light back to 12/12 will have early yellowing- pot plants use a lot of N, more than most plants. Today's bloom fertilizer don't have enough N in them so you have to supplement a bit for a few weeks.

Here's what I do. The first two weeks of flowering I continue to use veg fertilizer. Then in week 3 and 4 I use veg/bloom at a 50/50 rate. Then in weeks 5, 6, and 7 I use just bloom fert. The last two weeks nothing. I should also mention I always use a cal/mag additive, currently Botanicare Cal/Mag at 10ml per gallon since I use r.o. water. If you use regular tap water, 5ml should be ok.

Below is my current grow of Green Poison in flowering.....see, no yellowing in flowering. I have a current G.P. grow going on RIU if you want to follow it along, it may be helpful.

Click to expand...
Finally someone who gets it!
 
S

SSHZ

Well-Known Member
An interesting conversation guys......

1. Botanicare......I'm not saying it's the best or anything but it's labeled as "premium natural and organic based"- so it's not 100% organic, but it's close. The ingredients listed are well known and common: Fish Meal, composted Seabird Guano, Kelp, Rock Phosphate, Potassium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate, and Calcium Carbonate. It also includes Humic Acid. It's complete and works very well with pro-mix.

2. Dr. Who is recommending raising the pH later in flowering, which is common and actually correct. I didn't want to confuse the issue with the newbie. By raising it, it lowers the plants ability to absorb N. If you cut the N back enough, raising the pH above 6.5 has barely any effect towards the end. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Actually, towards the end, I let my pH fluctuate more to let the plants absorb the nutes they want out of the soil as the different pH ranges allow the roots better access.

3. Pro-mix- many people have problems with this medium because of the salt build up over time. If you use a good quality fertilizer and use lower doses than the manufacturer recommends, it won't build up and the medium will support a healthy grow for 3-4 months. Many people flush too, which may help if necessary but I have never had too. I found people who use synthethic nutes, like GH or whatever, have MUCH more problems with pro-mix. Stick with organics or something similar, and you shouldn't have issues.
 
Rastaman85

Rastaman85

Active Member
I been feeding as follows
Usually approx 2.5l let water.
3ml/l grow
2.5ml/l bloom
1ml/l top max
1ml/l cal mag & I also have Epsom salts handy if needed.

Few different opinions I just want my plants to look nice and green! Don't want to say or think anyone is wrong. I Thot flushing with low nutes ph6.5 wud sort my soil? They are bit pale so maybe lockout? I'm not sure. My ph going in always approx 6.7 maybe slight high? Maybe need up bloom this feed & start dropping n or more n ie grow? Thanks. Just really want to have good ph def next grow (& this). Hope it'll b sorted.
 
S

SSHZ

Well-Known Member
Again, if you've been fertilizing around 6.7 pH on a consistant basis, all thru the grow- then you probably have some lock-up going on which is causing your yellowing. The rise to 6.7 pH should only be done the last 2 weeks of the grow, at the final "finishing" stage.

You probably need a ppm meter to actually know 1) what's in your water to begin with and 2) what adding those nutes does to your ppm. Guessing will never work. I'd bet you your over fertilizing and there is a build up in the soil.
 
GOLDBERG71

GOLDBERG71

Well-Known Member
JEEZ I thought I was done here! lol. Now that docwho brought up hiding N in the additives. I really can't comment on that because I REFUSE to try any of the big name nute companies! I think they're all full of shit! For them it's a sales game and they're really only interested in profits. The more they sell you the more they make.

As far as I'm concerned most pot growers want to reinvent the wheel. They buy anything with a nice picture and wild claims. Here's the big secret they don't want you to know. Pot is no fucking different than any other plant. By that I mean they require the same nutrients to survive. They get these nutrients the same way every other plant does. There is no secret ingredient you can add to your plant. It all boils down to making sure the same basic nutrients get to your plant at the right time and a good clean growing environment. You can optimize but even adding CO2 it's still the same CO2 just more of it. I don't roll like that so I can't say anything more about. But I'd suggest buying some snake oil that doesn't have a guaranteed analysis isn't worth a penny. You've got the 3 major needs they should be clear on every bottle you use. For newbies that is the NPK ratio. Then there are the trace elements all plants need the same elements anything else isn't being used by your plants. But any quality fertilizer contains ALL those trace elements in the base fertilizer. As soon as I see more than 3 bottles I know it's a gimmick. It's amazing what people will buy. If you look for the ingredients and it totals 3% and they list nothing else you're being taken for a ride!

I use dyna gro and I highly recommend it. I use the grow bloom and proteck. I have the cal/mag and I've tried a few cycles without it and didn't notice a difference. I have tried the foliage pro and keep it on hand so if a new strain shows signs of yellow I can hit it with a dose of FP because it has more N than the grow does.
 
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S

SSHZ

Well-Known Member
Well, one issue.

1. Many company's separate ingredients because certain nutes can combine into larger molecules making them too large to be absorbed by the roots. That's where chelates come into play- they allow nutes to still be absorbed under difficult situations. If they don't use chelated ingredients, they probably separate out certain nute combo's. If the nutes are chelated, they can combine them all in one container. Chelated nutes are expensive, not everyone uses them.......
 
GOLDBERG71

GOLDBERG71

Well-Known Member
This is the first time I've ever heard about raising the PH at the end. I guess it makes sense but I've never really thought about it. By that point I've already eliminated MOST of the N. So there's really none available.

What he really needs to do is keep good notes. This way you adjust for any issues the following grow and compare the notes and pictures. This is how I know that adding lime or ash wasn't worth continuing with for me. But I did try it all 3 ways and I also did cycles feeding at different PHs. So I know what works for me. I do agree if you're going to be in pro mix for a LONG period of time D lime is useful. I just don't have that issue because I don't keep anything that long. I keep a cycle going topped plants make cuttings and keep the strain around.
 
GOLDBERG71

GOLDBERG71

Well-Known Member
SSHZ said:
Well, one issue.

1. Many company's separate ingredients because certain nutes can combine into larger molecules making them too large to be absorbed by the roots. That's where chelates come into play- they allow nutes to still be absorbed under difficult situations. If they don't use chelated ingredients, they probably separate out certain nute combo's. If the nutes are chelated, they can combine them all in one container. Chelated nutes are expensive, not everyone uses them.......
Click to expand...
Interesting I'll have to do a little research. I've seen the term chelated before but honestly clueless. DG gets the job done and I wouldn't classify them as expensive.

I can understand why people like organics. But I'm a meat and potatoes guy. So organic or salt base makes no difference to me. I just try and control everything I can. The best way I've found is starting with a clean slate. Plus I've used pro mix for years prior to this venture. So it was a no brainier for me to start with it. As far as nutes go I did research for a year before I dove in. During that time I read about mixing my own organic soil, rockwoll, coco peat, all the different nute companies ect. And I made my choices and stuck with it. I also read to much and got sidetracked.
The biggest secret and the one thing everyone should know before starting is to not switch to 100% bloom nutes the day you flip your lights to 12/12. And a close runner up to that is most nute companies feeding schedule it a little to strong. You'll know you're dialed in when you have no need to flush and your feeding every watering and the plants look great! There's a sweat spot and if you find it there's zero need for that 2 week flush they all give you. Because your soil isn't overcome with unused nutes that need to be washed away so your dope will burn properly.
 
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S

SSHZ

Well-Known Member
Advanced Nutrients uses a lot of chelated ingredients and although I don't like Big Mike or his products (or prices), I believe they have some write ups about chelation on their website that can be helpful. Good luck trying to find it though. They produced a manual a few years back that thoroughly discusses chelates and thats where I first learned about them......
 
GOLDBERG71

GOLDBERG71

Well-Known Member
SSHZ said:
Advanced Nutrients uses a lot of chelated ingredients and although I don't like Big Mike or his products (or prices), I believe they have some write ups about chelation on their website that can be helpful. Good luck trying to find it though. They produced a manual a few years back that thoroughly discusses chelates and thats where I first learned about them......
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I just did a quick Google search I see what you mean. I also searched this site. And I won't mention names but a guy I have followed and trusted has posted that DG has 4 chelated micronutrients in the mix. I'll dig further later but this guy has spoken with the owner of DG and from what I have seen in the past - since before I joined he's been spot on. He also noted AN only has 3.
 
Rastaman85

Rastaman85

Active Member
Biobizz chart says use grow along with bloom & topmax whole grow till the end so that's wot I've been doing. It says add more grow but maybe shud start cutting back on grow.
 
GOLDBERG71

GOLDBERG71

Well-Known Member
Rastaman85 said:
Biobizz chart says use grow along with bloom & topmax whole grow till the end so that's wot I've been doing. It says add more grow but maybe shud start cutting back on grow.
Click to expand...
I can't give any input on those nutes. I will say I went to their webpage. Oh my. That's a world I'm not interested in.

Biobizz® products have not been produced with mineral salts but with organic elements. These organic elements are impossible to measure. However, the elements have a self-regulating system, which maintains the values at the correct level.

In a quick glance I saw this. And I could only think of one thing. You can't measure it you can't see it and I dam sure can't tell you how much of it there is in there. BUT TRUST ME WHEN I SAY YOU'LL BE IMPRESSED! The skeptic in me says hog wash!:o:confused::?
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Pretty sure with all organic based nutrients you have no way of measuring the actual EC accurately and base your feedings on the plants perceived needs. This is why I chose to go salt based, to have total control of the situation but that's for hydro. My outdoor soil grows are basically living soil for the most part with bone and blood meal top dressing starting half way through the run.
 
Rastaman85

Rastaman85

Active Member
Im just starting week 5 of 12/12 so should I stop adding the veg nutes now and just bloom? The chart says add them right till end of grow. I'm not sure. Also some say flush with ph water, some say don't? I'm a bit confused as I'm a bit of a noob. Will I just run ph 6.5 water through with some runoff & disregard the runoff ph? I'll post a pic of my plants tonight. Maybe change soil for next grow? Just really ain't sure.
 
Rastaman85

Rastaman85

Active Member
Dr. Who said:
Not doing organic are we?

In organic - no need to adjust or - even check the soils pH.

Now, I've never been a big Promix fan or any big fan of media's that are soil substitutes as it's "kinda" synthetic use only stuff.....Give me EWC and compost in there some where.....They do run with the needed pH monitoring rule! I have to interject something here though.......The idea that 6.5 is THE spot for pH all run long and that a tic lower is alright is kinda malarkey! ANY type of soil mix that you run with a pH value that is 6.5, should be considered a "soil" grow. Soil grows should be run with a VEG. pH of 6.5 and a BLOOM pH of 6.7..... And there's MY 2 cents on that! I found that if I keep any "soil & synthetic" grow at those levels of all ingoing being pH'ed to. I have happier and better yielding plants! The minor shift in bloom reduces/slows/stalls early or even what some might call "natural" yellowing by keeping N more available during that time....

There are nutrient makers (many), whose formulations "hide" a higher N concentration then they list up front to attempt to do the same thing - slow down that excess P yellowing....It doesn't work so well that way. Many of them "hide" that N in supplements in varying degree's that all add up too! You DON'T need that! pH in bloom to 6.7......



HOLD IT! NOT a good idea to use hydrated lime!!! Too strong and easy to screw the pooch FAST with it!....I'd stick with your wood ash - and be careful with that too! It's easier to add more then to have to back off with damaged plants!!!!

So then - rule of thumb for synthetics is to pH all in-going in veg to 6.5 and in bloom 6.7 and forget about the pH of the media!

I know bug you love to do the run off thing.....not accurate and time consuming for newbies bro!

Now then, OP,,,,why in the HELL are you going to "flush" anything? Have you built up a salt condition? Dumping multiple times the pot size in water through it will only further screw with your pH if it's really the problem.....Just water any overage condition out with plain pH'ed water......maybe a little Kelp extract and a Ca/Mg would help here too......depends on how bad your problem is..

Your plants looked low N to me.....feed them!
Click to expand...
I feed them 3ml grow
2.5 ml bloom
2ml topmax all per litre plus cal mag. All per litre twice a week roughly. I thought that was plenty N at this stage? I could be wrong. Usually I am!
 
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