polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
i agree thats why i switched to 2 6700k by coralife and 2 wavepoint coral accel. those bulbs red spike isnt that great the 6500k is better
LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow
- Thread starter pr0fesseur
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polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
i understand where you are coming from but hormones aren't just "flowering hormones" those are built up in pure darkness best, far reds(like at duk and dawn) signal the creation of these hormones and other hormones that help with growth. i create basically an dusk of about 6 hours this helps the plant enter a sleep-cycle without entering flowering. but let say i ran all the lights 18/6 you would see buds after a while because the far red encourages budding.
so my light cycle in veg is like this 18 hours full par lighting then 6 hours far red only. works great so far
Undercover Cop
Active Member
I think its working great simply due to the light being provided... im iffy on the pretend sleep concept, they see that coralwave bright as fuck. people use green lighting in greenhouses during the dark period if you want to run a light during the dark period, but 18/6 or 24/0 they're gonna respond well and its been debated whether a dark period is necessary or if 24/0 is better. They'll look good either way, Im not buying the pretend sleep thing, and stand by my premise that you could get better results with a pure blue tube in the same set-up and save the CoralWave's IR for when you want to flower. again, those bulbs dont look dark to your plants so I dont know why you think they would enter a "sleep cycle", they may not grow as vigorously as when under the full PAR lighting, but they're still absorbing photons and processing CO2 and photosynthesizing. Anytime theres light shining on their leaves, they're "feeding" on it. But not the IR, its just confusing the plant and wont contribute well to the growth stage you're trying to optimize during veg.
Lucius Vorenus
Well-Known Member
My buddy is growing the same strains as me with T5's and 100% 2900k bloom bulbs. He is at 4 weeks into Flower right now and his plants are super impressive and frosty. Also good size.
Here is the part that has me perplexed. He has his fixture 4 FEET above the canopy! I keep mine at 4" roughly. My mind is blown at this point. I never even thought of keeping my lights tht high and getting good growth. It just doesn't make sense!
Here is the part that has me perplexed. He has his fixture 4 FEET above the canopy! I keep mine at 4" roughly. My mind is blown at this point. I never even thought of keeping my lights tht high and getting good growth. It just doesn't make sense!
Undercover Cop
Active Member
The Green lines are what you want to try to create with your light set-up.
This would be a good proportion of Blue to Red for veg, reverse the peaks so Red is higher for a flowering spectrum
__________________________________________________________________________________________
http://www.myhydroponicgardening.com/the-cannabis-growers-guide-to-led-grow-lights-spectrum-wavelength/
..."When looking at a PAR chart, you can see that there are distinct peaks along the visible light spectrum at which plants derive nearly all of their energy required for photosynthesis. It is clear that red and blue are needed and, until I did more research, I thought that orange was needed as well. The fact is that just 2 wavelengths in the red band and 2 wavelengths in the blue band can provide over 95% of the light needed for all phases of plant growth. Some manufacturers also deliver UV and/or infrared light bands in their products to enhance resin production and flowering.
Photosynthetic Pigments & Absorption Spectrum
There are 6 main photosynthetic pigments in higher plants that drive plant growth, flowering, and fruiting. Different pigments in the plant absorb light at various points of the visible light spectrum - both red and blue - for vegetative and flowering growth.
For example, lets take the most common/abundant photosynthetic pigments in a plant, chlorophyll A and B. The absorption spectra for chlorophyll A is both at 400-450nm (violet to blue) and at 650-700nm (near-red to deep red) while chlorophyll B peaks at 450-500nm and 600-650nm. So, while red is essential to flowering, it is also necessary for vegging. It also happens to be absorbed less efficiently by plants, hence the increased need for red lighting during flowering
Check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_pigment
http://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/faculty/reusch/VirtTxtJml/Spectrpy/UV-Vis/spectrum.htm
My previous understanding of the need for orange in LED grow lights was based on what I know now as flawed science from this Solar Oasis patent . . .
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6921182.html
Their research and testing were flawed which is where they came up with the 612nm (orange) and its importance to photosynthesis. While the reading is well within the absorption range for chlorophyll B, it is not at the peak of absorption. In their testing, they attributed growth to the 612nm while in fact, it was because of the 660nm they were also using (red). They also said that the orange excites carotenoids . . . which is just wrong as it peaks at around 439nm and 483nm as you can see here: http://omlc.ogi.edu/spectra/PhotochemCAD/html/beta-carotene.html "....
Lucius Vorenus
Well-Known Member
Which bulb?
48martin
Well-Known Member
Yeah I kind of took what you and prof. were doing and worked it for my situation. (thanksI used that combo last grow through veg, liked it and had no complaints, but I think the BlueWaves cover all the blue well enough so I havent bought any more ReefWaves, but I still have one as sidelighting. I think the 630-660 red from the FloraSuns are giving me a bit quicker growth than I was getting when I had the 6500k's (610nm), But I got good squatty bushy growth with both combos, like 2-3 nodes per inch
Ill agree tho, I definatley got much better results when I initally swapped out half of my 6500k's for actinics. That was the first sign I got that helped really open my eyes to the PAR method
)
Undercover Cop
Active Member
He's talking about the AquaticLife Roseate 650nm
View attachment 2107132
Its a good bulb, but the amt of green and yellow in it makes it look much more white than the FloraSuns or AquaMedic PlantGrows I have. On its own, it looks a little pinkish but next to the others its a flat stone white. Not a bad bulb for the $, but FloraSuns are even less at $8. (I realize it may sound like I work for ZooMed, Im just reeeallly cheap and they're good quality for the $... AquaMedics are $22ea and dont seem to be as well made)
jsamuel24
Active Member
When the ultra growth comes out, wouldnt it just be best to fill the entire fixture with those, or in a 6 bulb set up, 4 of those, 2 Actinic for veg, and then replace the actinics with red suns?
Undercover Cop
Active Member
Yeah I kind of took what you and prof. were doing and worked it for my situation. (thanks
love to hear it! I guess I can join the "Finally Get My Shit In The Mail" club!!!! Finally got my 2 Hydrofarm 4bulb 2ft panels to finish out my boxes, and got 2 more coral waves from PetMountain. Yay, its my weekly xmas morning lol
Undercover Cop
Active Member
I think so, They're gonna look almost identical to the FloraSuns that already exist, I currently use 50/50 FS's and Actinics for Veg, then 50-75% FS's and CoralWaves and RedSuns in Flower for a more complete red spectrum with the Actinic from the CoralWaves to provide the blue spread.
You could prob substitue FloraSuns with UltraGrowth's, they'll prob be around the same pricepoint any way ($10-ish) But I dont think they'll be very unique, only unique to WavePoints line-up.
View attachment 2107152
View attachment 2107153
We discussed a few months back how you cant really take the graphs for exact truth since theres no laws requiring accuracy of marketing materials for "Pet Products", theres no regulation unless its for human consumption and monitored by the FDA. They dont want to outright lie, but you can see how WavePoint makes the peaks look really big and bold, but when you compare the height of the blue and red humps in both charts, you can see that they are just as high at both 450 and 640 between the two, although the ZooMed chart looks more subdued... they're damn near equal. Thats a German quality products vs a shady Chinese company like WavePoint. I dont want to show preference because Ive still had no problems with any of my WavePoint tubes and they're about the same cost so Im really in favor of both. I just wanted to point out the tactics that some companies use in their marketing. something to look for.
overTHEman
Active Member
Like this, a lot. PAR = plant food??
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
i have been looking for zoomed charts i know they make good bulbs and personally i would prefer to buy from them. the only reason i went with bluelife and wavepoint is they have very good info.
i did realize something and you made a good point the normal red lights i had been using where way out of that spectrum and less intense by far so i am starting to see what you where saying, maybe it more the lowering of the lumens that allow me to get this pretend sleep period(hell i can show you of the difference between my active periods and sleep periods)
so i may go ahead and get the atinics like you are saying so 2 atinics wave point and 2 6700k bluelife? or should i go with zoomed? im about to cancel my order
i did realize something and you made a good point the normal red lights i had been using where way out of that spectrum and less intense by far so i am starting to see what you where saying, maybe it more the lowering of the lumens that allow me to get this pretend sleep period(hell i can show you of the difference between my active periods and sleep periods)
so i may go ahead and get the atinics like you are saying so 2 atinics wave point and 2 6700k bluelife? or should i go with zoomed? im about to cancel my order
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
also i have ran into a hiccup how hot does the air get below your bulbs? mine is aquarium fixture so most of the light is focused downwards i took the plastic lens out at first but my plants got stressed overnite so i put the lens back in now the fixture is hot but the air isnt. right now its at the same height with the lens on about 6 in from my tops, if i could move it back to 2 ft without the lens i would be happy but from what you guys are telling me closer is better so what should i do?
Undercover Cop
Active Member
Cancel it, about the cheapest combo Ive found is 50/50 FloraSun and BlueWave, about $32 for all 4. Im glad you were able to see, the IR isnt PAR light (it is beneficial, but not to photosynthesis, it assists as a catalyst for the true PAR red (630-660)
Take the plastic out, move em down close. get a cheapo desk fan just to circulate/ruffle the tops, T5's operate at 95deg so they will get warm but that heat dissipates quickly over the length of the tubes. Look up the Inverse Square Law... you will want to get the tubes as absolutely close as possible (keeping in mind that any changes to your babies environments can cause stress, so whenever you change lights/nutes/temps etc, do it over the course of a couple days so they can get used to it) If they're not used to the strong light they may shy away from it at first, but you gotta trust me they will be reaching for more and more light once they get a taste. They'll literally change the shape of their leaves and flatten out then curve towards it to be able to reach as much as possible.
PAR Photosynthetically Active Radiation, The specific lightwaves that trigger photosynthesis in chlorophyll A/B.
PUR Photosynthetically Usable Radiation, is the PAR that is specific to a certain plant species, there has been very little as far as scientific research into the actual PUR spectrum for cannabis, only higher plant species like different trees and crops etc (at least that I can find)
Undercover Cop
Active Member
lights were raised to post for the pic, they were only 2" above the canopy before this pic (old pic) but notice how the leaves are all reaching upwards
any cheapo fan pointed up will help to circulate the air, and remember you cant have them in a completely enclosed small space, cuz again they run at 95deg so eventually your space will heat up so some ventillation will be necessary, but theyre nowhere near as hot as HID will get
Ive been told when blowing air directly onto tubes to do it from the label end and down the length from there, due to their internal components and how they're made. (dunno why exactly)
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
dude i changed the lights their entire growth pattern changed over nite overnite. happy canoeing leaves (not the bad kind the ramshorn leaves is what let me know the heat was bad) and green and the thickness seemed to change overnite and all node have begun to branch it was amazing i am super happy with my t5 swap in veg. yeah im gonna take the plasic off(it has a computer exhaust fan built in and i have a 4inline that blow the hot air from the light directly down so im gonna move that and rais the light a little till the plants adjust to the light. hey on few pages back i posted a pick of my bulbs that came with the light can you tell me what spectrum they are or your guess at least? i called and canceled my order you got me thinking.
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
i run co2 so high temps ar e ok im just making sure every thing is ready for summer so if temps reach 90+ i will be alright
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
ok i will move 4in inline ducting to blow across bulbs label down dont know which side is label side but ill try
Undercover Cop
Active Member
View attachment 2107231
Its really hard to tell since the bulbs play off each other to our eyes and can really appear quite different when placed next to various other bulbs, similar to optical illusions, that phillips 5000k bulb would prob appear flat white on its own, but the 610nm orange in it is showing dominant next to the actinic. i would have guessed it was a 3000k bulb, since it appears so orange, but thats just the Actinic playing off it. I would guess tho that the two on the ends are possibly something like an Actinic+ or a 75.25, maybe a 20000k. it looks like they may have a small amt of green/orange which is why they're not as pure blue as the actinic, but not as intense or wide of a spread as the 5000k