Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Hydronton makes a decent home for bennies, but put the sock into your tea brew, not your DWC.
DWC Root Slime Cure aka How to Breed Beneficial Microbes
- Thread starter Heisenberg
- Start date
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Here is what your tea looks like at 100x. You can see colonies of fungal growth.
[video=youtube_share;nI-z4RKF9gE]http://youtu.be/nI-z4RKF9gE[/video]
and here it is at 400x. You can see dozens of bacteria swimming around a fungal hypha.
[youtube]CnPrzhy3xhQ[/youtube]
Also found this product called Microbe Catalyst which is a food designed to give your tea the highest diversity, by providing it with a variety of foods.
http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/microbe-catalyst
The site also has brewing kits and they sell a nifty filter bag for $10 that you just lift out of the tea when you are done.
http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/re-usable-mesh-bag-for-a-5-gallon-bucket
And here is a cheap USB microscope in case you want to check the diversity of your own tea.
http://www.rakuten.com/prod/microspy-usb-microscope/220946547.html?listingId=201562659
If you want to know a bit about what you should see in your tea you can find resources through this link, as well as a DVD of a microbiologist identifying exactly which microbes are which.
http://www.microbeorganics.com/
[video=youtube_share;nI-z4RKF9gE]http://youtu.be/nI-z4RKF9gE[/video]
and here it is at 400x. You can see dozens of bacteria swimming around a fungal hypha.
[youtube]CnPrzhy3xhQ[/youtube]
Also found this product called Microbe Catalyst which is a food designed to give your tea the highest diversity, by providing it with a variety of foods.
http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/microbe-catalyst
The site also has brewing kits and they sell a nifty filter bag for $10 that you just lift out of the tea when you are done.
http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/re-usable-mesh-bag-for-a-5-gallon-bucket
And here is a cheap USB microscope in case you want to check the diversity of your own tea.
http://www.rakuten.com/prod/microspy-usb-microscope/220946547.html?listingId=201562659
If you want to know a bit about what you should see in your tea you can find resources through this link, as well as a DVD of a microbiologist identifying exactly which microbes are which.
http://www.microbeorganics.com/
Scroga
Well-Known Member
What's the diff?
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Nothing organic should go into the res. At the least it will cause an unnecessary gunk, and could actually feed the slime. So brew the sock in the tea and then remove the hydroton and place it into the res.
Edit: another reason to not feed your microbes once they are in the res is because it raises the demand for dissolved oxygen.
grnhrvstr
Well-Known Member
First off u the man and thanks for this thread and keeping this going with current info!!!That catalyst looks nice,always looking to make a better tea.Im forever subbed!
Now I know you have said this a million times about nothing organic in the rez but isnt the tea itself organic? Im also a bit confused as to what is organic and whats not.Some products that claim to be organic but with trace minerals or derived from organic materials but does not contain plant food.....stuff like this.
I run GH flora on lucas formula with a little Rapid Start (is rapid start ok?) and am about to put her to flower and start using a booster like liquid koolbloom,pretty sure thats non organic.
I guess my question is how to make sure its 100% synthetic?What types of ingredients to look out for that makes it have organic properties that cause the slime?
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Organic in this case means 'not broken down'. Our tea is indeed organic (as is anything with carbon-hydrogen bonds) but it is also composted, meaning it is decomposed and has very little food left in it for microbes to feed on. This is why many of the organisms starve and need to be replaced after a few days. Over time a strong colony will build up on the roots and sustain itself.
I have not used rapid start but other stimulators, like roots excelurator, sometimes trigger slime, but can still be used in the tea to give it a boost. If you are in doubt of any additive then use it on a test bucket first.
I have not used rapid start but other stimulators, like roots excelurator, sometimes trigger slime, but can still be used in the tea to give it a boost. If you are in doubt of any additive then use it on a test bucket first.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Here is a little perspective from Brian Dunning at Skeptiod
Scientifically, the term "organic food" is meaningless. It's like saying a "human person". All food is organic. All plants and animals are organic. Traditionally, an organic compound is one produced by life processes; chemically, it's any carbon-containing molecule with a carbon-hydrogen bond. Plastic and coal are organic, a diamond is not. So when we refer to organic food in such a way to exclude similar foods that are just as organic chemically, we're outside of any meaningful scientific use of the word, and are using it as a marketing label.
The biggest misconception is that organic farming does not use fertilizer, herbicides, or pesticides. Of course it does. Fertilizer is essentially chemical nutrient, and the organic version delivers exactly the same chemical load as the synthetic. It has to, otherwise it wouldn't function. All plant fertilizers, organic and synthetic, consist of the same three elements: nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Referring to one as a "chemical" and implying that the other is not, is the worst kind of duplicity, and no intelligent person should tolerate it.
The difference between the two is the source of the chemicals. To make the high-volume commercial versions of both organic and synthetic fertilizer, the source materials are processed in factories and reduced to just the desired chemicals, and the end product, these days, is virtually indistinguishable. Small organic farmers, and home organic farmers, might use fish meal, bone meal, bat guano, or earthworm castings. These are fine products and do indeed deliver the required nutrients. They're just not useful for high volume farming because they're (a) far too expensive, and (b) contain too much ballast, or inactive ingredient, that the crops don't use and merely increase the energy requirements of moving and delivering them.
To make synthetic fertilizer, we start with nitrogen, which we extract from the atmosphere. This process is infinitely sustainable and produces no waste. The potassium is mined from ancient ocean deposits. The phosphorus we get from surface mining of phosphate rock. Although we have centuries of reserves of phosphate rock and millenia of reserves of potassium salts, mining is not sustainable, as these reserves will eventually run out. So, increasingly, producers are turning to seawater extraction for both. This forms a completely sustainable cycle, as the oceans are the ultimate destination of all plant matter and farm runoff.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4166
Scientifically, the term "organic food" is meaningless. It's like saying a "human person". All food is organic. All plants and animals are organic. Traditionally, an organic compound is one produced by life processes; chemically, it's any carbon-containing molecule with a carbon-hydrogen bond. Plastic and coal are organic, a diamond is not. So when we refer to organic food in such a way to exclude similar foods that are just as organic chemically, we're outside of any meaningful scientific use of the word, and are using it as a marketing label.
The biggest misconception is that organic farming does not use fertilizer, herbicides, or pesticides. Of course it does. Fertilizer is essentially chemical nutrient, and the organic version delivers exactly the same chemical load as the synthetic. It has to, otherwise it wouldn't function. All plant fertilizers, organic and synthetic, consist of the same three elements: nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Referring to one as a "chemical" and implying that the other is not, is the worst kind of duplicity, and no intelligent person should tolerate it.
The difference between the two is the source of the chemicals. To make the high-volume commercial versions of both organic and synthetic fertilizer, the source materials are processed in factories and reduced to just the desired chemicals, and the end product, these days, is virtually indistinguishable. Small organic farmers, and home organic farmers, might use fish meal, bone meal, bat guano, or earthworm castings. These are fine products and do indeed deliver the required nutrients. They're just not useful for high volume farming because they're (a) far too expensive, and (b) contain too much ballast, or inactive ingredient, that the crops don't use and merely increase the energy requirements of moving and delivering them.
To make synthetic fertilizer, we start with nitrogen, which we extract from the atmosphere. This process is infinitely sustainable and produces no waste. The potassium is mined from ancient ocean deposits. The phosphorus we get from surface mining of phosphate rock. Although we have centuries of reserves of phosphate rock and millenia of reserves of potassium salts, mining is not sustainable, as these reserves will eventually run out. So, increasingly, producers are turning to seawater extraction for both. This forms a completely sustainable cycle, as the oceans are the ultimate destination of all plant matter and farm runoff.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4166
ounevinsmoke
Well-Known Member
Hey Heisenburg, I have an experiment I want to run by you since you have a firm grasp on this Micro Biology
I was thinking of making two teas.
First tea is EWC and Beneficial fungus fed by fruit juice.
Second Tea is EWC and Benefical bacteria fed by molasses.
My thought process is the Fungus has a better chance to grow when its not competing with the breeding bacteria and getting a more solid source of glucose and sucrose from the fruit juice. Would it be even better to do the Beneficial fungus without EWC?
What do you think?
I was thinking of making two teas.
First tea is EWC and Beneficial fungus fed by fruit juice.
Second Tea is EWC and Benefical bacteria fed by molasses.
My thought process is the Fungus has a better chance to grow when its not competing with the breeding bacteria and getting a more solid source of glucose and sucrose from the fruit juice. Would it be even better to do the Beneficial fungus without EWC?
What do you think?
turkeybaser
Member
Here's photographic proof of the "Heisenburg Method"
A tote with 5 blueberry cuttings... their roots were covered in nasty brown slime algae...
This is about a week to week-and-a-half into treatment with beneficials. You can still see some of the brown slime that the benes haven't "eaten" yet but it won't be there for long... the proofs in the "fishbones" fishbones! baby!
Doer
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I have the rocks, and I think maybe I'll just brew them in a spare pump bag and leave it open in the bottom of the utility bucket. COOL!
Drizzle a little molasses, good.
And suddenly, I see in the usage what you mean by housing. Homes for the bennies.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing. That is a great example because it shows the new shoots among the old gunk. This is why people should stay the course. Glad the tea could help.View attachment 2552097View attachment 2552098View attachment 2552099View attachment 2552100
Here's photographic proof of the "Heisenburg Method"
A tote with 5 blueberry cuttings... their roots were covered in nasty brown slime algae...
This is about a week to week-and-a-half into treatment with beneficials. You can still see some of the brown slime that the benes haven't "eaten" yet but it won't be there for long... the proofs in the "fishbones" fishbones! baby!
I should also mention that young plants or plants with really bad roots will benefit from a foliar application of the tea as well. About 50/50 dilute.
Jeeyah
Well-Known Member
This is what I'm experiencing. Finally using the tea after 2 years of trying to sterilize with Zone. Right now the roots are pretty covered in brown slime. But, under the slime the roots are super bright white with tons of feeders/fishbones growing. And the plants are growing super fast. Always a good thing.
I'm usually good in bloom. But, in veg I started to notice a pattern. Every time I did a water change I would get slimed hard. (Chlorinated Water and Zone) I want to give some to my coco ladies as well. Just mix it in with the food right?
Thank You Heisenberg.
I'm usually good in bloom. But, in veg I started to notice a pattern. Every time I did a water change I would get slimed hard. (Chlorinated Water and Zone) I want to give some to my coco ladies as well. Just mix it in with the food right?
Thank You Heisenberg.
firsttimeARE
Well-Known Member
I notice the same thing. Every time I do a nute change out.
1. Take pot out and put into a transfer station.
2. Empty reservoir and wash with a sponge, hot water and dawn. Rinse until no soap bubbles.
3. Fill up new reservoir.
4. Rinse roots with sprayer into the transfer station.
5. Put lid into new reservoir
6. Add nutrients and then PH accordingly.
I had an issue last res changeout, but brown roots the next morning.
It seems like its coming back, I changed the water Saturday afternoon and just added nutrients and left it.
Sunday afternooon they looked fine. And then I PHed them down from like 6.9(dyna gro leaves my PH mega high)
Now today the roots look noticably browner. That same watery brown stuff.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
With stubborn cuttings, I have the best luck when I prepare a res 24 hours before I place plants into it and use housing. Be sure to inoculate plants as soon as they show roots to establish some bennies before plants go into water, and be sure to leave an air gap even if it's just 1/8 inch at first. I am finding rhizotonic helps a lot, and I got a bottle of rapid start today to try out.
I believe some strains just do not like to have their roots submerged.
As I said earlier, I also see improvement when I spray the foliage with a 50/50 mix of tea.
I believe some strains just do not like to have their roots submerged.
As I said earlier, I also see improvement when I spray the foliage with a 50/50 mix of tea.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
There really is no advantage to making a fungal dominate tea over bacteria in our situation. We want our tea to be as diverse as possible and do not really care which microbes take over, so long as it isn't slime. Remember you will only get two kinds of fungus that will tolerate DWC anyway, mycos which do not multiply in the tea, and trichoderma. (cannabis uses no ecto-mycos and only one endo-myco can live in water) You may get a few wild strains if you use compost, but if you are looking to get fungus you may as well just put some ZHO powder directly into the res, and you can sprinkle a little around the base of the stem.
If you do want to encourage extra trichoderma growth in the tea just put some coconut fibers in the tea brew. Other foods which will encourage fungi are fish hydrolysate, ground oatmeal, and yucca extract. You may also want to give the fungi a 'head start' by mixing a little ground oatmeal in a cup with some moist compost and letting it sit covered in a warm place for three days prior to brewing.
Doer
Well-Known Member
Oooooh. Really? I'm trying out chernobyl and trainwreak. They are not nearly as dutiful rooters, as white widow.
Any strains, you can mention?
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
I have the most trouble with Ace of Spades, indica pheno. It grows explosive roots just above the waterline and then the parts that are submerged stall and do not like to branch. Rhizotonic is helping the situation greatly. It also likes to have it's water changed every 5 days, very picky about nutes until it gets into the budroom, then it takes off and tolerates res flux well. I normally have mixed cuttings sharing a res and the other strains always form rootballs faster. It's sad because my indica pheno is very strong, a good producer and ripens by week seven, a winner all around, but I have yet to fill my budroom with it.
I have a little difficulty with the black cherry soda pheno but not as much.
I've tried maybe 20 other strains over the years and this is the only one that gives me trouble in DWC.
Doer
Well-Known Member
IAC, got the tea brewing. 24 hr now. I think I need to follow the idea of get the water setup and housed for a day.
Then I'll start again. These 6 don't seem to be getting along so well. I was not as set up as I thought. Good news. I got RO, a 30 gal food barrel storage. And I have 3 gal of tea and lava rock housing.
If I could only get some ww.
Then I'll start again. These 6 don't seem to be getting along so well. I was not as set up as I thought. Good news. I got RO, a 30 gal food barrel storage. And I have 3 gal of tea and lava rock housing.
If I could only get some ww.
turkeybaser
Member
Stay the course. The brown slime takes a long time to go away completely but the main thing is the new, beautiful fishbone white, roots... As long as there are fat new roots the tea is kicking ass and taking names. I sterilized with effing everything... and the damn slime was back in days, if not hours. After Heisenburg's benies... I can even getting[ehhhhem] lazy. My garden is not at my residence and I have found myself having to spend less time and effort doing maintenance.
