Defoliation

HeartlandHank said:

Fuck it. Whatever works best for you setup. Do it.

I promise you guys though... If you are seeing improved yields in your setup with pulling off a bunch of leaves over not doing so... you have some other issues and you're not seeing the full potential of your plants.

Jmo

Let me know if that "solid proof" or "solid research" shows up. I'm tired of asking for it and tired of you ignoring the request. I have doubts that you'll ever produce it. Why? Almost definitely, because it doesn't exist. I could troll you all year for this proof and it will never show.

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I realized that all of the insignificant growth that happens on my plants that only amounts to little poofy buds is a result of my light movers. There is no other possible reason. I have 1000 watt lights, i use co2, i keep my air vigorously circulating.For Marijuana buds to develop fully, they need at-least 6 hours of direct sunlight a day. I realized from my lights moving back and forth light is able to reach some spots inside my plants but only provides around 2 hours of direct sunlight to these locations on the plant. Therefore, I am left with a mixture of nodes and stems that will never reach their full potential as well as the normal growth that the plant has. By selectively pruning this growth away, nutrients and energy are allocated to the main growth sites and not wasted in a frivolous attempt to create additional flowers. My alternative would be to use shorter light rails to increase exposure times to light but by using the rails I can increase my garden space from a 5' x 10' to a 8' x 10' garden giving me a 30% increase in cultivating space and yield. If I did not use light movers with such long rails I would not have to defoliate and prune, but I have to because I how my garden is set up.

PJ Diaz said:

47% on average

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So you have an anemometer in your garden?

Situation420 said:

Nice, I grew this in some dirt i dug outa my backyard and mixed in $1 worth of miracle grow soil then grew it under a couple cfl lights in my closet. All i needed to add was some water which i collected from the rain. I got the seed from a bag so I didn't have to waste money on that either. In total, The light cost me $50 but I got 4 harvests out of it already so it paid for itself by now and my nutes cost me maybe a $1.50 total . Here is what i have going now for pennies guys,
pennies.

View attachment 2753396

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Looking pretty nute stressed. Until you learn how to avoid that you will never MAXIMIZE your yields.

PJ Diaz said:

That's not really true. The main commonality I've seen is increased air circulation. Personally I wouldn't support the increased yield argument, however it's hard to argue with the better circulation part of the equation. When I did a side by side of clones I saw almost identical yield. 87 to 90 grams per plant in 1.75 gallon pots.

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Increased air circulation almost never comes up when they discuss defoliation. There are no if, ands or buts about it, they defoliate in order to increase yield. At least thats what they claim. And just like light air penetrates the canopy even if ours eyes cannot see it do so. You have a receptacle to plug your grow light in. So why not plug a fan in too....

Situation420 said:

I realized that all of the insignificant growth that happens on my plants that only amounts to little poofy buds is a result of my light movers. There is no other possible reason.

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Yes there is, as I explained a dozen different ways in other defoliation threads. Not gonna repeat myself but small buds at the bottom of the plant is an issue of apical dominance, plant resource allocations, etc. Has nothing to do with light penetration. Do a search on my posts if you're really interested in clearing this whole issue up.

One of these days you guys may get it, but then a new crop of noobs will show up, start another defoliation thread and the quilt knitting circles will start all over.

UB

hyroot said:

So you have an anemometer in your garden?

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Davis Pro Vantage for me, accurate and wireless. I'm very spoiled and addicted to this system. Wouldn't be caught dead without it.

UB

Alexander Supertramp said:

Increased air circulation almost never comes up when they discuss defoliation. There are no if, ands or buts about it, they defoliate in order to increase yield. At least thats what they claim. And just like light air penetrates the canopy even if ours eyes cannot see it do so. You have a receptacle to plug your grow light in. So why not plug a fan in too....

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It's strain dependant, but I've had issues with some leafy strains grown in tight areas. The fact that I live in a fog bank a few blocks from the beach doesn't help, but powdery mildew is real issue around here. I have multiple fans in my tent, but not a lot of extra room for dehumid, so I put the dehumid outside of the tent which only sort of helps. I've started using green cure which works well for controlling PM, but I don't want to use any nasty chemicals intended for golf courses on my weed. My current strain doesn't really require much leaf removal, so it's sort of a non-issue for me right not, but with past strains leaf removal did help to control PM, while not affecting plant yield. I think when growers talk of increased yield, it's simply because they are able to cram more plants in the same area due to less leaf matter. Perhaps the yield does go up overall, but seems highly doubtful that it does on a per plant basis.

Alexander Supertramp said:

Looking pretty nute stressed. Until you learn how to avoid that you will never MAXIMIZE your yields.

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That bud in that picture is bigger than any bud in any of your pictures and is 5 inches wide and 18 inches long. If that is nute stress and my yield was affected then my nugs still get bigger than yours even when I do badly lol. Anyway, I can tell you don't know what your talking about because the brown leaf edges is from water stress from a lack of Cool air and ventilation because i lost power and my ac was out for 2 days and my temps hit 102 degrees. Another indication that you don't know what your talking about because I use half strength AN nutes at 1200-1400 ppm so how the f is it possible to nute burn them anyway. I'll take my "crappy" plants over your healthy ones any day haha.

Alexander Supertramp said:

Increased air circulation almost never comes up when they discuss defoliation. There are no if, ands or buts about it, they defoliate in order to increase yield. At least thats what they claim. And just like light air penetrates the canopy even if ours eyes cannot see it do so. You have a receptacle to plug your grow light in. So why not plug a fan in too....

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I brought up air circulation a while back in this thread and how defoliation contributes to it. Do you not read right?

situation420 said:

that bud in that picture is bigger than any bud in any of your pictures and is 5 inches wide and 18 inches long. If that is nute stress and my yield was affected then my nugs still get bigger than yours even when i do badly lol. Anyway, i can tell you don't know what your talking about because the brown leaf edges is from water stress from a lack of cool air and ventilation because i lost power and my ac was out for 2 days and my temps hit 102 degrees. Another indication that you don't know what your talking about because i use half strength an nutes at 1200-1400 ppm so how the f is it possible to nute burn them anyway. I'll take my "crappy" plants over your healthy ones any day haha.



I brought up air circulation a while back in this thread and how defoliation contributes to it. Do you not read right?

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lmfao...you have an excuse for everything.

Situation420 said:

I realized that all of the insignificant growth that happens on my plants that only amounts to little poofy buds is a result of my light movers. There is no other possible reason. I have 1000 watt lights, i use co2, i keep my air vigorously circulating.For Marijuana buds to develop fully, they need at-least 6 hours of direct sunlight a day. I realized from my lights moving back and forth light is able to reach some spots inside my plants but only provides around 2 hours of direct sunlight to these locations on the plant. Therefore, I am left with a mixture of nodes and stems that will never reach their full potential as well as the normal growth that the plant has. By selectively pruning this growth away, nutrients and energy are allocated to the main growth sites and not wasted in a frivolous attempt to create additional flowers. My alternative would be to use shorter light rails to increase exposure times to light but by using the rails I can increase my garden space from a 5' x 10' to a 8' x 10' garden giving me a 30% increase in cultivating space and yield. If I did not use light movers with such long rails I would not have to defoliate and prune, but I have to because I how my garden is set up.

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You are growing plants larger than what your flowering setup can handle (with a no popcorn policy in place anyway) . If I grow plants too tall I have the same problem.
The solution in my garden is to send plant into flower setup for success. I know the size and I remove some lower branches very early in flower.
And yes, it makes for larger buds up top. Less bigger buds rather than more smaller buds. I've checked it time again though. Yields are unchanged.
What you do get is more consistent product. Less larger buds equaling the same weight I would have got in the form of large, medium and popcorn buds.

That is not defoliating. Defoliating is when you are removing the leaves on the plant to achieve some sort of growth or penetration...? beats me. it seems you all have a different explanation.

What is fact though...? You remove a leaf from a plant and you remove a piece of the plants capability to produce growth and buds.

I pinch out sites and leave the leaves on when I can. The lowest leaves end up falling off well before harvest.

Here is the real point here... you can achieve the same thing in different ways if you are so concerned about popcorn.
The defoliator sees a big healthy leaf reaching to an openish spot below the light... below it is a group of buds...
The defoliator pulls the leaf off. The non defoliator takes a little garden twist and moves the bud site... or, just leaves it.

The difference between the two plants/choices? The defoliator plant just lost a vital piece of what makes the plant work. The guy who moved the growth did not. The non defoliator WILL HAVE A LARGER YIELD.! Healthier plant, and less prone to fungus, pests and disease.

See what I am saying? There are 50 ways to shave your balls. If you wanna use a blender, go for it. I use a special pair of scissors.
What? It's fucking 110 degrees outside.

Situation420 said:

I brought up air circulation a while back in this thread and how defoliation contributes to it.

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Improving your air circulation can be achieved by properly setting up your garden with the right equipment and not over crowding plants.

It's that simple. You do not need to remove leaves to get air circulation. If your setup was not done well and you need to remove leaves to get proper air circulation then fine.
Weigh the benefits of each... Do you need to fix your poor air circulation caused by a poor design badly enough to harm the plant with defoliation? If so, do it.

The thing is... you are still pulling leaves from a health plant. You pull a leaf from the plant and you pull off a piece of its ability to produce buds.

The defoliator pulls a leaf off the plant... The non defoliator sets up his grow properly from the start and gives plants the room they need to grow. Spacing is all about knowing your genetics.

HeartlandHank said:

Improving your air circulation can be achieved by properly setting up your garden with the right equipment and not over crowding plants.

It's that simple. You do not need to remove leaves to get air circulation. If your setup was not done well and you need to remove leaves to get proper air circulation then fine.
Weigh the benefits of each... Do you need to fix your poor air circulation caused by a poor design badly enough to harm the plant with defoliation? If so, do it.

The thing is... you are still pulling leaves from a health plant. It's just the truth man. You pull a leaf from the plant and you pull off a piece of its ability to produce buds.

The defoliator pulls a leaf off the plant... The non defoliator sets up his grow properly from the start and gives plants the room they need to grow. Spacing is all about knowing your genetics.

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Amen Brother!

OK so here's my question: I do SoG, standard practice and the way I was taught involver removing the bottom branches and leaves before going into flower. I'm reluctant to flower any other way right now because it works nicely, solid big nugs on top. So if I don't cut all that off, would I still get the same QUALITY bud, nice solid big tops, or will those diminish in weight? Because I don't want THAT to happen.
I'm asking because I really am interested. If I can get more bud by doing less, that's pretty sweet.

Mad Hamish said:

OK so here's my question: I do SoG, standard practice and the way I was taught involver removing the bottom branches and leaves before going into flower. I'm reluctant to flower any other way right now because it works nicely, solid big nugs on top. So if I don't cut all that off, would I still get the same QUALITY bud, nice solid big tops, or will those diminish in weight? Because I don't want THAT to happen.
I'm asking because I really am interested. If I can get more bud by doing less, that's pretty sweet.

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Well, I thought this was a thread about this vague (and becoming even more vague) technique known as "Defoliation", but these are my opinions regarding your question...

I don't think that you would get the same quality. Not cutting it off will get a little bit more yield with less consistent quality of buds. If you do cut them off, depending on when you remove the growth and how much you remove (stress) you will get slightly less weight overall but more consistent dense buds.
Basically, what you are getting is... Less bigger buds rather than more buds of varying size, but the same weight for the most part. Slightly less.

Once again though... you are solving a problem you have in a way that includes taking leaves from your plant which the plant uses to make energy.
Your "problems" are...
1) over crowded - which is the SoG way... you have to take branches off to make them fit in the space.
2) inconsistent size and density - Growing SoG you have this problem worse than those who space plants up with the max potential of their genetics.

Then here are ways you can do the same thing in a less harmful way to your plant... but still solving your problems.
!) over crowded -
---- Stop over crowding them. Your genetics at the size that you put into flower have a consistent amount of space they will fill and a unique way they fill that space.
---- So find out that space that your plants fill and come up with the most ideal plant spacing that works under your lights. Now you do not need to remove branches, this
---- allows the leaves that were on that branch to stay on the plant and produce buds.
2) inconsistent flower size and density
---- Instead of removing an entire branch, remove only the growth tips along the branch that are below your desired height. (Space between the grow media lower growth)
---- You can remove the growth sites/tips along the branch without removing the leaves attached... These leaves will help the plant in those early weeks of 12/12.

It's just a different way to do what you are going for but is less stressful to the plant as it is not removing leaves.

Again, my opinions...

If we are going to call any removal of a leaf at anytime "Defoliation" then this idea of "Defoliation" is too vague to discuss beyond saying this...

Removing a single healthy leaf from a cannabis plant will slow growth and make the plant more prone to pest, fungal infections and disease. With more healthy leaves removed from the plant, the plant will become more stressed and experience slower growth and become more prone to pest, fungal infections and disease.

I'm pretty sure that is a fact. If you disagree with that (no matter how slight the harm might be) then I can't really have a real discussion with you on this.
The "no matter how slight the harm might be" is an important part of what I am getting at. Removing every leaf from the plant that is large enough to get a hold of will cause quite a bit of stress. Removing one small yellow leaf near the bottom will cause practically zero stress. At the minimum, when you pluck that leaf, at the base of the petiole you expose the plant, like an open wound. When a plant falls off naturally, the plant closes up that wound before dropping it. ..And everything in between.

Now, it seems to me that some of the defoliators are retreating back into a more mild form of "Defoliating" to continue on in their argument from a safer place. No?

Situation420 said:

I realized that all of the insignificant growth that happens on my plants that only amounts to little poofy buds is a result of my light movers. There is no other possible reason. I have 1000 watt lights, i use co2, i keep my air vigorously circulating.For Marijuana buds to develop fully, they need at-least 6 hours of direct sunlight a day. I realized from my lights moving back and forth light is able to reach some spots inside my plants but only provides around 2 hours of direct sunlight to these locations on the plant. Therefore, I am left with a mixture of nodes and stems that will never reach their full potential as well as the normal growth that the plant has. By selectively pruning this growth away, nutrients and energy are allocated to the main growth sites and not wasted in a frivolous attempt to create additional flowers. My alternative would be to use shorter light rails to increase exposure times to light but by using the rails I can increase my garden space from a 5' x 10' to a 8' x 10' garden giving me a 30% increase in cultivating space and yield. If I did not use light movers with such long rails I would not have to defoliate and prune, but I have to because I how my garden is set up.

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I just don't buy it man. Sorry. You can shape your plants in a way that do not need to remove leaves. Your choice to go that route is your choice.
Your setup is so different from mine that you are in a better position than me to find what works. But, I know that removing leaves is not the BEST option because of the fact that removing leaves is harmful to the plant. If there was absolutely no other solution in the world, then ok... you have a setup that has an issue and your best option is to harm the plant to fix your design flaw. Cheers...

I agree, that "defoliation" is too broad of an undefined term to have a real debate over. The term defoliation implies complete leaf removal, which personally I would never recommend. On the other hand, some selective leaf removal could have some specific benefits (depending on the strain, environment, number of plants, timing, selectivity, etc..).

The broadness of this non-defined term is one of the main reasons I've chosen to stay out of these debated much lately. You can always win an argument using what I'd call "extremism". Sure, of course if you remove all your leaves (aka, "defoliate"), you are likely to fuck up your crop. If you remove 30% of your leaves the benefits may possibly outweigh your setbacks. Again, it's all strain and environment dependant.

HeartlandHank said:

But, I know that removing leaves is not the BEST option because of the fact that removing leaves is harmful to the plant.

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Agreed. However as you also implied a previous post, we don't know how much harm is done. In my experience, removing 30% of the leaves from a leafy strain twice during flowering had little if any impact on yield on identical clones grown in 1.75 gallon containers. The difference in control vs leaf removal was literally a 3% max (and I honestly forget which yielded more since at a 3% differential it really didn't matter).

HeartlandHank said:

No, no, no. It does not benefit the plant. It just does not PJ... I'm sorry.

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If you live in a fog bank and you are working with a leafy strain that is sensitive to PM, yes -- yes it does benefit the plant.