Defoliation

This should be a sticky in all the forums, closed thread with just the first post:

https://www.rollitup.org/support/47767-attention-users-will-not-tolerated-15.html

Personally I only 'clicked' the ethic or 'code of conduct' here when I read it and even though I had my little freak-out before that I've kept it very civil ever since. Communities have got taboos you know.

I still haven't heard why defoliating during veg, when there is a size limit to how big the plant can get indoors, it is not just an alternative technique to topping with different results. Who's saying that defoliating during flowering is a good thing? Only selectively removing branches during week one of flowering has any benefits on bud development, after that you're missing out on all that rapid flowering budding site growth.

I say whatever floats your boat. Well grow differently. My mommy tent is SOOOO packed right now I had little choice but to take some fan-leaves. LST'd all I could, topped a while ago. I need strong CLONES. And I need them from the limited space I have. Just letting the things bush out and grow me looooong-ass thin stalks does me NO good. If it was outdoors I wouldn't touch a single leaf.
And it works for me, each branch getting all the light it needs and fattening up the way I like them to be. Perhaps not IDEAL, but better than just leaving them. Best I can do for them right now till I've selected the ONE. She'll then get all the space in the tent, and be treated a lot differently.

Another point to bring up, dont people defoliate sometimes to give their roots an advantage when transplanting? I'm going to sleep but im pretty sure that has to do with some way of using the roots in a ratio to a certain amount of foliage to increase survival rate, and increase adaptation/new growth of the plant.

Situation420 said:

I still haven't heard why defoliating during veg, when there is a size limit to how big the plant can get indoors, it is not just an alternative technique to topping with different results. Who's saying that defoliating during flowering is a good thing? Only selectively removing branches during week one of flowering has any benefits on bud development, after that you're missing out on all that rapid flowering budding site growth.

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Back peddling a bit are we?

Situation420 said:

Another point to bring up, dont people defoliate sometimes to give their roots an advantage when transplanting? I'm going to sleep but im pretty sure that has to do with some way of using the roots in a ratio to a certain amount of foliage to increase survival rate, and increase adaptation/new growth of the plant.

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Now in full reverse...speeding away from his original claims of magical hormonal control among other earlier claims.

Imaulle said:

he was talking about page 26 of this thread

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# of pages differ on the browser you use. For me this thread is 15 pages long.

MYOB said:

I was very pro-leaf until I got botrytis and a quarter pound of dainty buds last harvest.

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Suggests to me a genetic thingie (sativa type buds) and insufficient air movement for your ambient RH.

UB

I've made my decision on whether to or not,don't want to talk about that.
I want to know when is best to do?
I did a side by side and the first thing I noticed was the amount of leaves that came back,looked like more than I started with.
So from that I figure once I start I got to keep it up.
How do you avoid the stall that I believe Roseycheek is going through now,or is that the price for more buds?
The last thing I've noticed (so far) was the roots,I had a bucketfull to throw away,any more & would have been a problem.
Can anyone defoliate without the stall?
Thanks for any help in advance.
GL&HY to all.

Alexander Supertramp said:

Back peddling a bit are we?

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how can i back peddle if we never got anywhere in the first place? and how bout you answer the question instead of derailing a derailment further

nameno said:

How do you avoid the stall that I believe Roseycheek is going through now,or is that the price for more buds?
The last thing I've noticed (so far) was the roots,I had a bucketfull to throw away,any more & would have been a problem.
Can anyone defoliate without the stall?

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That's exactly how to describe what happens. The growth of the plant seems to "stall" but its not, its generating new growth sites all over then those take off once the foliage support is there again to provide the energy for rapid growth. That's the trade off, however, why would you want to stall a plant that is in flowering? why not just have plants vegging while the others are flowering? That's my whole point to why you should only defoliate in veg. In flowering you just lose out on harvest size if you defoliate after that first week of flowering. Defoliating should only be done when there are no buds growing yet.

Here are few links that may be responsible for many of the misguided defoliation claims. The following links are not flawed. Rather its how some interpret them...

http://msucares.com/crops/cotton/discussion.html
http://faculty.ucr.edu/~harejd/papers/potatoyield80.pdf
http://forages.oregonstate.edu/nfgc/eo/onlineforagecurriculum/instructormaterials/availabletopics/management/defoliation
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/64200500/csr/ResearchPubs/balkcom/balkcom_10c.pdf
http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wehner/articles/art028.pdf
http://ag.arizona.edu/crop/cotton/cropmgt/crop_defoliation.html
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/dissertations/AAI8118174/

You can pick and piece connecting the dots just the way you want too coming to your fitting conclusion. Bottom line is none of this is even REMOTELY connected to the cultivation of a C3 annual, more specifically cannabis. These scholarly papers are found buried by pages and pages of cannabis forum claims of the so called benefits of defoliation.

Claims of increased yield are often based and measured on many different levels. But it seems 'gram per watt' is the norm for cannabis growers. But grams per watt is a very undefined and not practical. Maybe 'grams per watt hour' would be a more tangible way to measure yield. Watt hour being defined by the number of hours a particular wattage light is run in conjunction with a particular grow. This would include both veg and flowering hours. Kinda makes 'gram per watt' useless as a means of defining a grow huh?

Situation420 said:

Another point to bring up, dont people defoliate sometimes to give their roots an advantage when transplanting? I'm going to sleep but im pretty sure that has to do with some way of using the roots in a ratio to a certain amount of foliage to increase survival rate, and increase adaptation/new growth of the plant.

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This generally is done to correct an early mistake, a lanky seedling. Party cup to next pot kinda thing. Its a win-win for both plant and grower.

I just think if you yank leaves off and they grow back, the damn plant needs it so much it's willing to expend the energy to re-create it.

And a very simple request...just a basic guideline on where to get started defoliating for increased yields. We all are well aware of your claims. And I am very certain many have done their own research only to come to the same conclusion. There just seems to be no common ground. other than increased yields, among the defoliation gang across the forums and internet. Just throw us old fucks a soft bone, maybe some chewy kibble......

Alexander Supertramp said:

And a very simple request...just a basic guideline on where to get started defoliating for increased yields. We all are well aware of your claims. And I am very certain many have done their own research only to come to the same conclusion. There just seems to be no common ground. other than increased yields, among the defoliation gang across the forums and internet. Just throw us old fucks a soft bone, maybe some chewy kibble......

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That's not really true. The main commonality I've seen is increased air circulation. Personally I wouldn't support the increased yield argument, however it's hard to argue with the better circulation part of the equation. When I did a side by side of clones I saw almost identical yield. 87 to 90 grams per plant in 1.75 gallon pots.

PJ Diaz said:

The main commonality I've seen is increased air circulation.

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And just how increased was it?

Alexander Supertramp said:

Claims of increased yield are often based and measured on many different levels. But it seems 'gram per watt' is the norm for cannabis growers. But grams per watt is a very undefined and not practical. Maybe 'grams per watt hour' would be a more tangible way to measure yield. Watt hour being defined by the number of hours a particular wattage light is run in conjunction with a particular grow. This would include both veg and flowering hours. Kinda makes 'gram per watt' useless as a means of defining a grow huh?

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Per par watts. How many grams per umole/s / watts2 or gram per kwh. With horizontal hps grows, most pull 0.6 gpw and with vert grow 1.5 -2 gpw. Par t5 1 gpw. Led 1.5- 3 gpw. I agree grams per watt is not accurate enough. Veg time and size and strain can change gpw without changing light.

Uncle Ben said:

And just how increased was it?

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47% on average