Astir Grow Led Panel Project...

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Yep...It's a virus...

Do not bother that much...
It can not kill the plant -You can not treat it.
(At severe cases ,yield is decreased,though... )

Try to raise the temps at 35-40 ° C (95-100 ° F )for a day or two...
It might help a bit ...
 

tenthirty

Well-Known Member
Thank you kind sir!! That was exactly what I was looking for.

I really like the way that you can pull this off the top of your head.

Well..
That is quite " expected " with low/mid irradiances of white light generally.....
....
Just a summary (more details as the "experiment" will proceed...):

Plants react in a "opposite" kinda of way in light characteristics....
If i.e there is moderate power light at low reds (620nm -640 nm ) and lower at deep reds ( 640-680)nm ,plants
change their "Photosynthetic Scheme" .Meaning that they will biosynthesise more ChA (which has peak absorbance around 660-665 nm ) ,as they
will try to gather as much as possible light at that region (low powers ).
ChA being main P.pigment of PS I. In chloroplasts, the photosystems are spatially separated: PSII and its
antenna pigments are located primarily in the stacked thylakoid membranes (grana)
, whereas PSI is mainly
located in the nonstacked stroma lamellae protruding into the chloroplast stroma from the grana lamellae.


So,in fact will have higher ratio of PSI to PSII (3:1 compared to 2:1), or/and have more antenna chlorophyll in PSII. These
adaptations “enhance light absorption and energy transfer” to make better use of the relatively more sparse deep red light.

Grana is stacked ,meaning ChB is "packed " denser than ChA... More "thick " light harvesting sites...
Not easy to miss photons.....( Which are fewer in low irradiances ,and specially if not much deep reds there... )
For harvesting the deep reds ,more ChA is produced....

These "actions " are a small part of " Shade Adaptance"...
As also , thin (regarding thickness) and wider leaves ,are....
Thin so that they will not absorb most of light...Let the lower leaves have their "share",also...

Of 100% incident solar energy arriving at the leaf , 60% is non-PAR photons, 8% is reflected or
transmitted, 8% is dissipated as heat, 19% is consumed in metabolism, and the remaining 5% of incident
energy is utilized for the production of CHO. However, the efficiency of utilization of this photon
energy may be much lower,as 85-90% of PAR incident on the leaf is absorbed,
strongest in blue(400-499 nm ) and red (600-699 nm )and lowest in green(500-599 nm ).



Here are general properties and tendencies of shade leaves compared to sun leaves:
• have more total chlorophyll per reaction center
• tend to be thinner, with thinner palisades
• have less rubisco and less xanthophyll (which is photoprotective)
• have higher ratio of PSI to PSII (3:1 compared to 2:1),and/or have more antenna chlorophyll in PSII. These
adaptations “enhance light absorption and energy transfer” to make better use of the relatively sparse deep red &
more
abundant
far red light.
• have lower rates of respiration (“dark respiration”) and lower Light Compensation Point.
• have lower maximum PS rates (saturation) that sun plants.
(But usually are much more than sun leaves ,while at same time having bigger P/S active surface area per leaf .)

Bright Light Adaptations
Sun-exposed plant leaves tend to grow thicker than shaded leaves of the same plant.
Desert plants, to prevent harm by excess light (and dessication), develop various defense including hairs, salt glands,
epicuticular wax, all of which increase reflection of light from the leaf surface and reduce absorption of
light by up to 40%. Some plants utilize paraheliotropic tracking to turn away from direct sun and thereby
reduce leaf exposure to light.

We will see later how plants "sense " Strong -bright light....
Using a particular range of wavelengths...The "rarest" ones...



Thinner leaves=more efficient????? Less biomass to support????

Well..Thinner leaves are also many in numbers and quite large in overall size...
So they store more mobile elements & energy in the form of starches and sugars...
Plus that they possess lower respiration rates (lower catabolism ) and low compesation points (higher anabolism )....
And yes....
Later on during reproductive stage ,all these-along with some "other"- , usually mean ,really massive flowering...
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Yep...It's a virus...

Do not bother that much...
It can not kill the plant -You can not treat it.
(At severe cases ,yield is decreased,though... )

Try to raise the temps at 35-40 ° C (95-100 ° F )for a day or two...
It might help a bit ...
I know that H2O2 and/or Colloidal Silver kills virus envitro as well as in humans & pets, so that's wrth a shot. Used together CS supercharges H2O2 (or vice versa). If possible, you could soak the roots in a CS/H2O2 mixture not sure how long, maybe an hour then see what's up. Repeat as needed 1-4Xs per day
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
..lsfl 6 2.jpglsfl 6 3.jpglsfl 6 1.jpg...

6 th day of first " transition " week ( 13/11 ) ..
Shade -Adapted girls...

By now,light duration schedule was :

1 st vegetative week : 24 / 0
-4 hours...=>
2 nd vegetative week : 20 / 4
-4 hours..."transitioned"=>
3 rd vegetative week : 20/4 for 4 days & 18 /6 for rest 3 days
4 th vegetative week : 18/6

-Total vegetative stage cycles : 28
-Total Light duration : 568 hours
-5 hours..=>

1st transition week : 13/11 <====Here we are today...
2nd transition week : 12.45'/11.15'
3d transition week : 12.30'/11.30'
4th transition week : 12.15'/11.45'

-Total transition cycles : 28
-Total Light duration : 353.5 hours
-1 hour decreasement during 28 cycles..." WTF ? Slow down of seasonal change ? "
?????
.."Anyway I've grown enough...I'd rather go back to flowering..."
(At this point ..Is all the mystery....)
....
1st flowering week :12/12
2nd flowering week :12/12
3rd flowering week :12/12
4th flowering week :12/12
5th flowering week :12/12
6th flowering week :12/12
( ??? 7th flowering week :12/12 ??? )

-Total flowering cycles (6 weeks ): 42
-Total Light duration (6 weeks ) : 504 hours

-Total overall grow cycle duration : 14 weeks.
Low / moderate light power levels...
( 135 Watts at plug.Leds' used , average efficiency ,estimated at .3 )
Unidirectional -Scattered -Dispersed....(multiple panels - wide emission angles )
And kinda long vegging /=> thus " slow transition" there ...
Playing with circadian rythms....
Applying slow decreasements towards 12/12
(natural occuring only at sun adapted plants ...
=>),thus " elongating " vegetative stage a bit=new leaves/nodes,to Shade adapted plants....
Growing not in a natural environment ,but in CE ,under leds.
Making buds a bit longer ...Across stems... Filling the stems...
While reducing stretching- induced from sudden re-training of the circadian oscillator
.
But stems are layered into Scrog......( More info here. )
As many -large leaves,as possible,are needed now ...
..to make my dreams,come true...

....


Wonder what will happen.....

(He-he-he-he..... :fire:)
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Well...
Come to think more ,about it....

Shade adapted plants...

Those 2 ,for sure are...
Not so much of 650-680 nm red [ RL ] or 700-750 nm [ FRL ] ...
The blues (from whites) are pretty much dispersed ,to cause Sun Adaptations ..
Green is quite enough ...( 20-25 % ... caution now...It might already ,be more than it should...)..
Overall flux is relative ,low to moderate.....

Light forces them ,to work harder considering PS....
Store more chemical energy / assimilates ,'cause light is not so much...
A certain amount of daily PS yield ,goes to leaf / node production...
Shade adapted plants have higher fractional allocation -of daily PS yields=carbonhydrates stored/spend -in leaves ,than Sun adapted plants...

-Which in turn ,BTW ,have higher fractional allocation to roots..They make more root...
As,of couse they 're taller ...For starters....-

Water and nutes ,should be adequately supplied ,
to support the higher needs of a shade adapted plant.
i.e...

(Although the example is not the best...Shade tolerance is a different thing, than Shade Adaptation...But the basic "principles" of both are almost the same..)**

"....Shade tolerant plants are thus adapted to be efficient energy-users. In simple terms, shade-tolerant plants grow broader, thinner leaves, to catch more sunlight relative to the cost of producing the leaf. Shade tolerant plants are also usually adapted to make more use of soil nutrients than shade intolerant plants...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shade_tolerance
**
In ecology, shade tolerance is a plant's abilities to tolerate low light levels.
The term is also used in horticulture and landscaping , although in this context its use is sometimes sloppy, especially with respect to labeling of plants for sale in nurseries.

Shade tolerance is a relative term, (shade/sun adaptation isn't...)and its use and meaning depends on context.
One can compare large trees to each other, but when comparing understory trees and shrubs, or non-woody plants, the term takes on a different meaning. Even in a specific context, shade tolerance is not a single variable or simple continuum, but rather a complex, multi-faceted property of plants, since different plants exhibit different adaptations to shade. In fact, the same plant can exhibit varying degrees of shade tolerance or even of requirement for light, depending on its history or stage of development.
A massive flower production will ,probably,depend on stored assimilates / energy more ,
than from the daily photosynthetic yield ,during flowering...

If ,during late flowering , a shade adapted plant receives still same amount of light as while in vegetative growth....
Then it will provide mainly from daily PS yields ,the essential matter/energy for flower production...
But as a shade adapted plant it has low reproductive effort...
This means not many flowers ?

It might...

I'm going to add two more panels...
( Experimental ones... )..
10 x rL 620-640 nm
10 x CW 6500-7500 ° K
2 x WW 2700-3500° K
2 x UVa / VL 390-410 nm
Increasing overall power...
But...
I'm going to increase the distance of the led panels ,from the scrog canopy...
Decreasing irradiance ,increasing coverage...
So,the plannts will receive less light
-as occuring in natural enviroment,specially to Shade adapted ones...

Forcing them to use their leaves' storage..

Try to kill them ....
Increasing their reproductive effort..
..



...Reproductive effort is defined as that proportion of the total energy budget of an organism that is devoted to reproductive processes
....

.....Selection for high levels of reproductive effort should occur when extrinsic adult mortality is high, in environments with constant juvenile survivorship
......

....A plant while juvenile ,can grow in low light conditions.
Becoming Shade Adapted....
Later the same plant ,while greater in size- and needs-,is threatened ,
if light gets even less..
...So...It increases it's reproductive effort....While having plenty of resources stored in leaves ....
That's why, probably, massive flowering is occuring....



.....If resources are
low .... (Sun adapted plant.)
(decreased storage of assimilates/ chemical energy -Carbonhydrates-
and deep roots in ground ,away from topsoil,for efficient assimilation of new...
High photosynthetic rates,but with less " Photosynthetic overall mechanisms ",
under constant defence against light....)
Then ,yes,probably reproductive effort,
-
The proportion of its resources that an organism expends on reproduction.-has to be high....

Late ,in flowering ,I wanna see all-most of leaves turn yellow...
...
If this theory stands...
Then ,there's gonna be a lot of flowering ....

P.S./Edit:
Afterall,up till now,we were taking into account,
only two out of four properties of light-regarding flowering stage......

-Duration ( 12/12 cycle ..)
- Quality (more red light.... )
..
I'll take my chances,also with Quantity (less ) and Direction ( unidirectional...) ...
At least ,in natural environments ,at sites were mj is growing and having massive flowering....( "Indicas" )

All four properties,of sunlight,change towards this scheme...

First "Indicas" ,usually, are shade adapted plants ...(less overall irradiances than "Sativas"....)
With long vegging (4-5 months ..),under low/moderate irradiances ,lasting for long time
(S.Solstice at 45° :a bit more than 15 hours...)
And short flowering...(2-3 months..)
Plenty of large leaves....
Having lateral roots ,mainly with really low Shoot/Root* ratios.. (Shoot is more....)
...Bigger nutrient and water assimilations than "Sativas"-which are Sun adapted plants,mainly....

And after August -Sept ,sunlight falls, really angled -dispersed-unidirectional and with way less irradiances than before (summer)..
Threatening the survivorship of "Indicas" ( aka shade adapted cannabis ? ) .....
Forcing them to use all stored minerals /energy for flower( & seed ) production...

For sure "warmer " light (more rL-RL-FRL ) plays a role,there...
For sure also the decrease of daylight duration (after Autumnal Equinox ,drops under 12 hours per day...)

But also overall irradiation decrease and unidirectional light ,probably,play a role too...

We shall see...





 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Lighting Indoors

Even though I grow indoors, I believe that the push/pull of the sun/moon impacts a plant's life cycle

I grow slightly above the equator. Due to summer heat/humidity, I do not germ seeds until the first new moon in August/September.

Where I was arbitrarily cutting flower light schedule from 14/10- 13/11-12/12- 11/13- 10/14, now, as much as reasonable, I follow sunrise/sunset for turning lights o/o. Currently ~ 12/12, give or take 20 minutes

Of course the clones are vegging now, and will be harvested while daylight is increasing, but RH and temps will still be comfortable

LED Tent

I am seeing quite a few more trics developing than the HOT5 tent!
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Just a thought about actinics...

-Blue leds ( 440-470 nm ) are way too powerful ...
(Although ,there are serious indications that,they can increase trichome production/density)
Better ,the "blues" of whites...

-As for the reds ....My "opinion" is rather forming towards that ,
neither 620-630 nm or 650-660 nm,are the "best" options.
..
....
There's a specific wl-small- range ,that might prove to be the .....best "red light compromise"...
Harvested from both Ch/es A+B, is "gentle" with PHY, and can be used
without inducing sun adaptance ,in relative moderate to high powers..

Hmmm...
I've to order some reds ,custom made...
(....Small ,tiny,secret ,there...)

http://plantsinaction.science.uq.edu.au/edition1/?q=content/1-2-2-chlorophyll-absorption-and-photosynthetic-action-spectra


 

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
^^^^^^^best thread on RIU!! nothing like a free education/great info SDS..........love your flowering schedule/ unfortunately I always have stoner=timer issues when it changes constantly.................640nms??????? ha I want to know
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
I am as interested to duplicate the best parts of outdoor benefits to our indoor gardens as anyone, just keep in mind, we will never be able to totally duplicate what the sun brings to the table- nuances within nuances, that we will never quite realize/recreate

Still, it is both fun, and educational to push the envelop
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Assimilation rate increases more slowly at higher irradiances until eventually a plateau is reached where further increases in irradiance do not increase the rate of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] assimilation . Chloroplasts are then light saturated. Absolute values for both quantum yield and light-saturated plateaux depend on CO[SUB]2[/SUB] concentration. Quantum yield increases as CO[SUB]2[/SUB] concentration increases because photorespiration is progressively suppressed. At ambient CO[SUB]2[/SUB], photorespiration normally consumes about one-third of available photochemical energy. The quantum yield for incident light also depends primarily on chlorophyll content. Leaf absorptance has a hyperbolic dependence on chlorophyll content. For most leaves, 80&#8211;85% of 400&#8211;700 nm light is absorbed and it is only in leaves produced under severe nitrogen deficiency where there is less than 0.25 mmol Chl m[SUP]&#8211;2[/SUP] that absorptance falls below 75%.



Photosynthetic capacity of leaves varies widely according to light, water and nutrient availability and these differences in capacity usually reflect Rubisco content. Leaves in high light environments (&#8216;sun&#8217; leaves) have greater CO[SUB]2[/SUB] assimilation capacities than those in shaded environments and this is reflected in the larger allocation of nitrogen-based resources to photosynthetic carbon reduction (PCR cycle; Section 2.1). Sun leaves have a high stomatal density, are thicker and have a higher ratio of Rubisco to chlorophyll in order to utilise the larger availability of photons (and hence ATP and NADPH). Shade leaves are larger and thinner, but have more chlorophyll per unit leaf dry weight than sun leaves. They can have a greater quantum yield per unit of carbon invested in leaves, but with a relatively greater allocation of nitrogen-based resources to photon capture, shade leaves achieve a lower maximum rate of assimilation.....<=Yes...But for longer periods...And since they have more leaves (Sun adapted can have great numbers of leaves also...
When they get reallyyyy tall....)....And from what it seems mj needs as many leaves as possible,to flower massively.....


Chl a and Chl b differ with respect to both role and relative abundance in higher plants. Chl a/b ratios commonly range from 3.3 to 4.2 in well-nourished sun-adapted species, but can be as low as 2.2 or thereabouts in shade-adapted species grown at low light. Such variation is easily reconciled with contrasting functional roles for both Chl a and Chl b. Both forms of chlorophyll are involved in light harvesting, whereas special forms of only Chl a are linked into energy-processing centres of photosystems. In strong light, photons are abundant, consistent with a substantial capacity for energy processing by leaves (hence the higher Chl a/b ratio). In weak light, optimisation of leaf function calls for greater investment of leaf resources in light harvesting rather than energy processing. As a result the relative abundance of Chl b will increase and the Chl a/b ratio will be lower compared with that in strong light. As a further subtlety, the two photosystems of higher plant chloroplasts (discussed later) also differ in their Chl a/b ratio, and this provided Boardman and Anderson (1964) with the first clue that they had achieved a historic first in the physical separation of those two entities.


Subtle alterations in the molecular architecture of chlorophyll molecules according to the particular protein to which they bind in either light-harvesting or energy-processing centres are responsible for these shifts in absorption peaks, and for a general broadening of absorption spectra (compare lower and upper curves in Figure 1.8). Such effects are further accentuated within intact leaves by accessory pigments and greatly lengthened absorption pathways resulting in about 85% of visible wavelengths being absorbed(And greens....) (Figure 1.9).Any absorbed quanta at wavelengths below 680 nm can drive one electron through either reaction centre.***Maximum quantum yield (Figure 1.9) occurs when both reaction centres absorb equal numbers of such quanta.*** When one photosystem population (PSII) absorbs more quanta than the other (PSI), excess quanta cannot be used to drive whole-chain (linear) electron flow. Quantum yield is reduced as a consequence, and leads to a slight discrepancy between in vivo absorption maxima (Figure 1.8) and quantum yield (Figure 1.9).

...
Thinking ....
Driving photosynthesis hard ,it is efficient for shortwhile...
Driving photosynthesis easier and for longer time....Hmmmm...
 

tenthirty

Well-Known Member
Thinking ....
Driving photosynthesis hard ,it is efficient for shortwhile...
Driving photosynthesis easier and for longer time....Hmmmm...
Think peaks and valleys. Hmmmm
It would stand to reason that any biological system does not run well at 100% all the time.
When we design machines, we always over engineer for the average load. (most efficient rate of production)

Who makes bigger/better buds, the tortuous or the hare?
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Think peaks and valleys. Hmmmm
It would stand to reason that any biological system does not run well at 100% all the time.
When we design machines, we always over engineer for the average load. (most efficient rate of production)

Who makes bigger/better buds, the tortuous or the hare?
What's your guess ?
Either you can have peaks (Sun Adaptation ) or valleys (shade Adaptation ) here ..
Can not be ,something in between ..
It's an "either that or this "situation...


For sure one of 'em has great advantages... (considering overall energy used / biomass of flowers ) ....
...
 

tenthirty

Well-Known Member
The tortuous, this is because of the more efficient use of available resources.
Bud formation takes much longer than sun/light adaptation and there is always the chance of destroying the mechanism, by running it a 100% or more.

Now there could be a catch, if the machine is run at optimal this week, the mechanism could get lazy or mutate to proved and different median or max efficiency point next week.
This is quite common in man made machines.
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Well..
Plants are "machines" that adapt to energy levels and then they adjust the workload ....

In natural environments ,high levels of energy ,are "offered" for almost constant 12 hours periods ,during whole cycle......
While low levels of energy ,are "offered" starting from 12 hours ,rising to 15 ,dropping again to 12 ,with light coming also "sideways"..
...
I think I totally agree with you...
The tortuous...
And yes,there's a catch...
if the machine is run at optimal this week, the mechanism could get lazy or mutate to proved and different median or max efficiency point next week.


"Endanger it's existence",at a certain point "needed"...
The "machine" will not get lazy ...
Maybe it will even mutate ,to work(=>produce) more efficiently...


;-)
 

tenthirty

Well-Known Member
"Endanger it's existence",at a certain point "needed"...
The "machine" will not get lazy ...
Maybe it will even mutate ,to work(=>produce) more efficiently...
That is the premiss in supercropping.

Supercropping with light???
No direct injury??
No recovery period????
 

katsumiyo

Member
Hello everyone and this is great thread. Why is it there is not much information on most white, full spectrum LED? T5 grower have said great result with combo 3000k and 6500k. Then there are, is those who have used specific nm bulb in T5 and have good result in some ways, but inconsistent on the rear end? Also that there are many that report good result using pure MH. Who know what kind? Too expensive to test like LED .

Full spectrum of course probably best, so what of a 3000k, 6500k and 10-12000k mix LED in a panel in ratio of 3:2:1? The high-er kelvin may have more green than liked, but with combined with lower middle range of the other two, this makes for good balance light, does it, no? So OK the car it started for you. A perfect combined of red vs blue for it to work properly, can the same not be for the white?

The pink purple LED light the color look very nausea inducing.
 
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