Astir Grow Led Panel Project...

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
i.e.
1 Week of flowering = 7 days X 12 hours/day=84 hours .....
Case "Actinic":
Flowering with (random example ) 400 Watts of 440-460-630-660-720 combo....
Flowering takes 9 weeks in total ....
Average led Efficiency = 0.3

Total energy given to plants in form of light...
E[SUB]actinic[/SUB]= 9 * 84 * .3 * 400=90720 Wh= 90.72 kWh


Case "YAG White":
Flowering with (random example ) 200 Watts of CW-NW-WW combo....
Flowering takes 18 weeks in total ....
Average led Efficiency = 0.3

Total energy given to plants in form of light...
E[SUB]"YAG White"[/SUB]= 18 * 84 * .3 * 200=90720 Wh= 90.72 kWh

And
YES !
Here is the " catch " with whites...
Their " darkest" secret,maybe...

..
Revealed,at last....
Nobody and nothin' is perfect .......

( I'm nobody...
:mrgreen:.... )

-Hey,you crazy sailor,double time ?

Well,not double,but yes, it takes kinda bit more,for flowering to finish...
Pace is ..slower....
Noticeably slower...
But with way less power,than actinic..


Both " schools " can have fairly decent yields....
Each has it's own " pros'n'cons "

Though,both face one common problem...

"Trimming " the quality of light,for specially growing purposes of certain individual species.

....

What nowdays ,seems to be really efficient way ,regarding led growing ,is the marriage of those two "schools"...
Actinics+YAG whites...
..Although ,even there ,there are quite different approaches ...
(Different in a" no better or worse" manner ..Just different..Still evolving, all of them...)

I.e.
-"The Royal Led School of Guod "......

High-class manufacturing ,more actinics than whites,lenses,
close to perfect led arrangement,
effective cooling,expensive high quality materials...
Modularity..
What to say more ?
Pure Art ...
If one has any argues about , should talk to a shrink...

Seriously ,I mean it .-


Another example ,is the present school...
-" The Astir led for the masses "....

Well,relatively cheap materials,cheap to fix or change...
Not a such "to the detail " spectrums,Vfs, individual efficiencies of leds/drivers,ect...
Coolin' is pretty ok ..With a fan or two for the whole 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 "pack " gets more than " ok "...
Total Weight can be a problem for hanging/placing ..
But led panel-oriented goodies are on the road..

Overall not the most electrically efficient and "state -of-the-art " or sophisticated parts ,panels...
But good craftmanship...

And they are hard work - horses ...
Solid,tough,simple,cheap.
And they do the job,fine .
Not like high-ends ,but fine...

What they lack in quality ,they make up for in led numbers...
Many leds,many panels (for low price ...)


They can be utilised, energy-wise,in "stages"
First 3 days i.e 2 of them ...
Then 4 of them...
Then 6 ...8...10...ect...

Dimming by number of panels activated...
Same method for light distribution...
Multiple low wattage panels...
Ok..There is a compromise there...
The smaller power the more panels...
(Ideal)...
But...
Compromising at 22-25 Watt ,each 24 led panel...
(Taking account heat dissipation,spectral blending,emmision angle pattern,coverage to light power ,ect...)

Ability of different spectral blends...

With time they will evolve...
As leds evolve,drivers,PCBs ,plants,people,us...

Sorry for the long Blah-blah,but the " led-smoke " is really " brain expansive" and I felt like I had some explaining ,to do ....
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
...
Friday night,bored to go somewhere outside,today...

Thoughts on Screen...
Notes...
....

Thinking about UV ,trichomes and THC/cannabinoid content & concentrations,this time...

I 'll ask Mother Nature ,about them...
ok..

Sativas. ( STV )
Natural Habitat geographical latitude Zone: 0°-15°
Natural light cycles :Summer: 13/11 aver. Winter : 11/13 aver.
Temps : Warm to Hot.

Sun Angle range from sky zenith : 0°- 23° 26′ for Equator ,0°- 38° 26′ for 15° G.Lat.....And thus :
Light Quantity: High Irradiances.
Light Quality : Blue is less dispersed.Less reds/FR absorbed ,thus red/FR light is intense.Uvb / Uva levels are also elevated enough.

STV plants grow and reproduct in an almost stable 12/12 light/darkness hours regime...
They sense rather slight differences in light/ darkness time ,so to flower...
This probably means that they posses ,a rather fine-tuned and sensitive circadian cycle mechanism..
(Phytochromes ...Pr/Pfr ratio sensing & reacting mechanisms ( they exist 3 different "excitation" ways ),ect )
Blah..Blah..Blah...To the point....

Welllll...Not that famous as THE "resinous" plants...
But quite psychoactive....
Hmm..
So ..Not many trichomes there ,but quite high concentrations of psycojuice....
Well in fact Δ9-THCA and some other cannabinoids ( i.e THCVA ) are in fact....Hmmm....Insecticides....
Most of insects lack endocannabinoid system...So,some cannabinoids act as nerve-poison,to insects...

Something more ...Uv & insects ..Any relation between 'em ?
What kind of lamps/light those electric insect zappers utilise ?
Isn't Uvs/violets ?
Many insects can actually "see " at UV range..
That is ,in fact,"visible" light for them...
More Uv ? =>through more visible light for insects=Great Living stock natural dynamics=more insects....
...
Plant -light &....insects...
....

Plants + Uv = light leaf /cell damage =>Antioxidants ( to 'intersect' & "neutralise" the free radical Oxygen ions [ O[SUP]-2[/SUP] ] and ozone [ O[SUB]3[/SUB] ] ,inside plant cell and which are produced from UV/violet/blue light high energy photons,acting on O2 and Water .. )...

Plants + uv = Plants " know " that a lot of herbivore insects (and not only ) are around ?
...

Mj....
Cannabinoids:cannabinoidsynthesis.jpg
Detailed THCA Biosynthesis:F2.large.jpg

1) Δ9-THCA absorbs "light" mainly in UV region.Thus colorless.Photoprotective to plant flowers/seeds.
More UV ? More photoprotection reaction ,maybe ?

2) Δ9-THCA is a neurotoxin for many herbivore insects...
plant protects it's flowers (reproductive organs ) and ..it's future generations(seeds)...

-As for higher herbivore animals like i.e. antilopes,being high ,while chased by a 200 kg lion ,
is neither "amusing" & " mind blowin' " or -at least -any kind of "aid" for survival..
Bye-bye stoned antilope/sheep/goat/mouse/bird/ect......
" Stoned " or " high " animals become easy food ,for their predators(if any )...

More herbivore insects & animals ,more "phycojuice " / 'insecticide " ?

...
...................interaction with Humans ,is another whole story..

3)
Δ9-THCA as other cannabinoids,along with many terpenes,exhibit strong anti-oxidant action...


But then what about Indicas ?
Same mechanisms works vice versa....
More trichomes,less "phycojuice" (THCA )(more of other non phycoactive-to humans- cannabinoids...)

Why they have less thca from sativas ?
Why more trichomes ?
Why ?

So can we assume or make the hypothesis that when trichome number increases ,thca concentration decreases and vice versa ?
And if so ,what can be the natural " causes" -stimulants for such counteracting balanced reaction mechanism ?

Ok ...
Step by step...
...
Indicas have lots of trichome coverage ,but have less THCA in general...
(from decarboxylation = organic acid looses ,one carbon and two oxygens ( CO2),it becomes alcohol...
the renown THC....)

2 main possible cases .(for starters)

1) Indicas are "older " than Sativas ..Sativas are-in fact-"evolved" Indicas....

So from many trichomes ,they became less...

-One good reason is high irradiances/uv content of tropical sunlight .....Extensive trichome coverage might lead to leaf damage by light reflection & difraction...Instead of that ,total number of trichomes diminished and at same time ,uv light absorbing THCA concentrations were increased,as a defence mechanism to oxidative light wls...

-Another weirdo,will be the resin thing...more trichomes means more resin...More resin means more insects stuck there..
Means more food for insect eating ,higher animals...
So instead of trapping insects with lots of resin & attracting other higher animals ,poisonous neurotoxin THCA is massively produced...Defence mechanism against herbivore insect is still there...
But now, higher animals ,also get more "intoxicated"...


1) Sativas are "older " than Indicas ..

From low trichome coverage to high ...Thca concentration decreased
.
Other cannabinoid increased.More volatile terpenes are also,produced..
(...more volatile,due to lower temps/temperetate clima of indica nat habitat geo.lat. zones (15°-45°) ? )
(pinenes,limonene,myrcenes,methyl salicylates,geranyls,ect )

-Less total Irradiances...Steeper direct sunlight ,angles.....
Blue light also is more dispersed and so the decreased Uv radiation...
Less oxidative light ,but coming from everywhere..Not from top mainly,this time...
Plant needs to protect it's shelf not chemically ( against high irradiances ) but physically
(against light diffusion/direction) at this case....Due to lower irradiances ,leaf burn danger from reflection/refraction of light through trichomes is diminished...
So more trichomes,there...

But what lowers thca content ?
Is it any side-effect of massive trichome biosynthesis (acting as limiting factor ...) ?

...Or another natural stimulus ?
More volatile,with anti-oxidant properties ,but also insect-repellent, terpenes ,
and lower toxicity(to insects ) cannabinoids produced at Indicas case ....

Natural population control ?
Sativas kill ,in a habitat with lots of insects ...
Indicas first repell (and then kill ,as well ...) ,in habitats with moderate number of insects...

Massive Resin production can act as defend "sticky " trap for crawling/flying insects ..
( cannabis pollen is mainly wind transferred ,and not by insects....)...

Stuck insects can be eaten by higher animals (birds) ,without serious intoxicating...
Many natural 'variables' are more "forgiving" in a more 'difficult ' enviroment for survival ....

But is this a good reason that would explain the lower cannabinoid "toxicity " ?
{ less thca - other cannabinoids posses more mild nervous system effects,regarding herbivore insects & higher animals.
(..and humans ) ...

....

Is there any other similar-effect mechanism there ?

I.e.
-If plant senses leaves being bitten/eaten by higher animals (" pinchin' leaf edges" ),will it react by raising it's "toxicity " ?
....
....
Or it will just produce more of those tiny (Calcium-Silicate based ) , claw shaped ,leaf cystolith thorns ?


-Or combinatorial cultivation with Jasmine plants , does really work ?
("Old forgotten secret ",as some old local folks,use to say...)
Plenty of Methyl Jasmonate ,cause of jasmine ?
Methyl jasmonate is a natural (meaning that is occuring in nature ) biochemical way,
that jumstarts Systemic Acquired Resistance mechanisms to plants....
It is proven ,that many plants when treated with MeJa ,show increased resistance to herbivore insects attacks ..
Some say Mj produce more trichomes,when sprayed with MeJa....
Others that THC levels increase...
...
For sure, Meja is quite pricey and smells really nice...
That I can tell...

-Arid ambient atmospheric air & soil ??
Difficult enviroment there,for fungus ...
High altitude Indicas do have low resistance to fungus diseases..
Dry conditions-not much fungus-no need for plant energy to be spend at fungal disease defence mechanisms...
Low Si assimilation,also is noticed....

Opposite goes for Sativas...Higher Si Assimilation leads to sturdier main stalk ..Stonger ,more rigid trunk...Resistant to fungal diseases..
And higher herbivore animals ..( strong fibrous ,mineral containing [ Ca-Si ] plant green matter ,not easy to cut,chew and digest...)
But THCA (and some other cannabinoids ),also exhibits strong antifungal action....
Wet soil/air conditions promote THCA biosynthesis ?
Arid conditions then ,promote trichome (resin ) coverage & production ,for better water evaporation management ?
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
SDS's Lab useless pieces of info....

Today the "menu " has cannabis chemistry...

Common( natural occuring ) cannabis plant matter contents,to be exact...

Main cannabinoids

Δ8 and Δ9-TCH -C5 /-C4= Tetrahydrocannabinol .....(when in THCA form ,exhibits strong antibacterial/antibiotic action)
Δ9-THCV-C3= Tetrahydrocannabivarin
Δ9-THC-C1=Tetrahydrocannabiorcol
OTHC=Oxo-delta-6a tetrahydrocannabinol
Cis-Δ9-THC=Delta-9-cis-tetrahydrocannabinol
triOH-Δ9-ΤHC=Trihydroxy tetrahydrocannabinol

CBL =Cannabicyclol
CBC=Cannabinochromene......(antifungal-Antibiotic action against microrganisms )
CBD-C4/-C5=Cannabidiol
CBE-C3/-C5=Cannabielsoin
CBN=Cannabinol.... (sedative/antibiotic )
CBG=Cannabigerol.....(antifungal-antibiotic )
CBLV=Cannabicyclovarin
CBCV=Cannabivarichromene aka Cannabichromevarin
CBDV=Cannabidivarin
CBV=Cannabivarin
CBD-C1=Cannabidiorcol
CBN-C1=Cannabiorcol
CBT=Cannabitriol
CBTV=Cannabitriolvarin
CBTVE=Ethoxy-Cannabitriolvarin
DCBF=Dehydrocannabifuran
CBF=Cannabifuran
CBCN=Cannabichromanon
CBT=Cannabicitran
CBR=Cannabiripsol

....
Some also exist in Acid form ( A at end ),ie cannabigerolic Acid =CBGA
some in monomethyl ether form (M at end ) ie Cannabigerolic Monomethylether =CBGM
Some in both (AM at end ) ie Cannabigerolic Acid Monomethyl Ether =CBGAM

.....
Cannabis Essential oil Main Terpenoids
-Myrcene
-Limonene
-Linalool
-Trans-Ocimene
-Beta -Pinene
-Alpha-Pinene
-Beta-Caryophyllene
-Delta-3-Carene
-Trans-gamma-Bisabolene
-Trans -Alpha-Farnesene
-Beta-Fenchol
-Beta-Phellandrene
-Alpha-Humulene(aka A-Caryophyllene )
-Guajol
-Alpha Guaiene
-Alpha -Eudesmol
-Terpinolene
-Alpha-Selinene
-Alpha-Terpineol
-Fenchone
-Camphene
-Cis-Sabinene Hydrate
-cis -Ocimene
-Beta-Eudesmol
-Beta-Selinene
-Alpha Trans-Bergamotene
-Gamma -Eudesmol
-Borneol
-Cis-beta-Farnesene
-Gamma-Curcumene
-cis-gamma Bisabolene
-Alpha-Thujene
-epi-alpha-Bisabolol
-Ipsdienol
-Alpha-Ylangene
-Beta-Elemene
-alpha-cis-Bergamotene
-gamma-Muurolene
-alpha-Cadinene
-alpha-Longipinene
-Caryophyllene oxide

Cannabis Spermidine Alkaloids
-Cannabisativine
-Anyhydrocannabisativine

Flavonoid Aglycones & C-Glycosides
-Apigenin
-Luteolin
-Kaempferol
-Quercetin
-Orientin
-Vitexin
-Cannflavin A
-Cannflavin B

Unsaturated Fatty Acids ( Cannabis Seed oil)
-Linoleic Acid
-alpha-Linolenic Acid
-Oleic Acid

Non-cannabinoid phenols
-Cannabispiran
-Isocannabispiran
-Cannabistilene-I
-Cannabistilene-II
-Cannithrene -I
-Cannithrene-II
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Veggin' day 28. ( 18/6 )
Still under 135 Watts of Leds.
..veg day 28 1.jpgveg day 28 2.jpg..


Two out of three ,showed preflowers...[ primordia ]

..veg 28 fem-mal.jpgveg day 28 female primordia.jpgveg day 28 male primordia 1.jpgveg day 28 male primordia 2.jpg..

Male is going to be removed and go through ...biopsy ..
More on that ,later.

Have a nice weekend ,everybody...

P.S. : Females 'n' Furs...
Still ,I'm noticing -for once more-that females ,have denser coverage of Ca-Si cystolith trichomes/ thorns at leaves,stems,stalks,ect...
....
Males willing to be "sacrifised" to save females ?
Being easier to be chewed and digested by herbivore insects/higher animals...?
Nothin' is in place or missin' , without a reason ....

..

cystolith CaSi thorns.jpg
But ,some times it can be a genetic trait overexpression (for some reason) in male plants also..
But I get to notice that,usually on female plants...
Leaf smell of females , is also,most of times , more "rich" -"fresh"-"fruity"-"pungent"...

Males sometimes smell ..urine ...
( They assimilate Nitrogen at higher rates than female plants..
Thus a bit darker green in leaf color.(Sometimes)...
Maybe smell of ammonia ( "urine" )
,has somethin' to do with higher Nitrogen assimilation/metabolic utilisation & procedures ,in male plants...)
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Not so ambiguous as it may seem....

Well ,as it is widely supported up till now,a daily average irradiance of 26 mol m[SUP]-2[/SUP] day[SUP]-1[/SUP] will effectively grow most species of higher plants.

26 mol = 26 * 10[SUP]6[/SUP] umols ....1 Day = 24 hours x 3600 sec/hour= 86.400 sec ....

26 mol m-2 day-1 = 26 *10[SUP]6[/SUP] / 86.400
=300.1 umol sec[SUP]-1[/SUP] m[SUP]-2 [/SUP]for 24/0 cycle or 600 umol sec[SUP]-1[/SUP] m[SUP]-2
[/SUP] for 12/12 cycle.....

If plants are "shade " adapted
( Leveled canopy , horizontaly oriented thin & large leaves with long leaf stems ,lots of Ch B ,more active PS II,dense branching ,ect ),
then they need smaller irradiances for effective growth...
As they'll have:Low compensation point=In simple words they start producing with low ambient light irradiances
At the compensation point, the rate of photosynthesis is balanced to the rate of respiration.
Products of photosynthesis are used up in respiration so that the plant is neither consuming nor building biomass

But,also...
Lower Photosynthetic Light Saturation Point,also=They do not tolerate high irradiances...
Something which may prove a "pro" rather than a "con",regarding the constant & stable irradiances of artificial lighting ,
at controlled enviroment sites...Take into account ,also the prolonged periods of illumination -i.e 24/0 or 18 / 6 ..

Also,3-5-10 ect Watt leds and narrow beam lenses ,at this case ,are not only meaningless ,
but can have deleterious effects on plants....


If "sun" adapted
(layered canopy, angled thick & small leaves close to stem,sparse branching,High Ch A / Ch B ratios,more active PS I ,ect.),
they need more power/energy...(Sun light at sea level (noon )=700-2000 umol sec[SUP]-1[/SUP] m[SUP]-2[/SUP] )As they'll have:Higher compensation point=In simple words they need more light ,to produce...
Higher Photosynthetic Light Saturation Point,also=They tolerate more light ....

....

Depending on led efficiency (.ie. for whites = .3 up to .45-.5,nowdays ) and spectrum config ,
one can estimate total Watts needed...
....
Actinics do work,but in rather high irradiances....
(Especially if there's enough "unleashed" 650-680 nm red light ,there...)
While with some "specialised" white light ,plants can produce with lower irradiances...

As for flowering...(At the case of whites )
Time....
Time is needed ...
So ....Not in particular need for much FR light there...
(
where actinics should benefit from FR ....)

Energy = Power * Time .

Same amount of energy can be harvested by plants during total flowering period , either :
-By using relatively high power of actinics(with some FR amongst them for extra Pfr=shorten the otherwise long, maturing time..) and relatively normal to short total flowerin period ..
Or....
-By utilising lower power of whites and a relatively extended* flowering / maturing period....
(*Which already happens with white leds ,anyhow...)

and this simplifies it for you? Damn. I was quite good at advanced math 35 years ago, about all I retain is +,-, x, /; (damn, no division icon)
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Solving the light multiple hanging problem in my mind.

Do you know what an Erector set is? Well, it comes in so many different styles these days, but basically it is a bunch of thin pieces of metal with lots of holes that are bolted together to form a shape ie, windmill. Well, what about a cage? Floor standing (or hang it)! Horizontal support bars, placed strategically, for attaching the lower led panels which can be mounted to a 20-40* swing bracket.
Wing Nuts would make for ease of assembly/adjustment. I will check Lowes/HD, if anybody knows of a source (I have googled) please let me know
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
and this simplifies it for you? Damn. I was quite good at advanced math 35 years ago, about all I retain is +,-, x, /; (damn, no division icon)
Well...
It helps a bit...

I'll give you a simple example...
(Totally hypothetical....According and based solely to my hypothesis..True average numbers though... )

A grower ,uses a 400 Watt HPS to grow...
About 700 umol/sec there...
The average yield of every grow ,in dried herb material is 350 gr .
( for 4 weeks 18/6 vegging=504 hours & 10 weeks of 12/12 flowering =840 hour .Approx total time= 1340 hours )

Energy spent : 0.4 kW * 1340 h= 536 kWh
Controlled Enviroment light efficiency = 350 /536 = 0.65 gr / kWh with HID (hps ) ....

Grower desides to go led ....

He goes 400 WattActinic Led Combos ...
a)one combo with FR leds
b) one without ....
Both rich in 630/ 660 leds ...
About 600 umols/sec there...
The average yield of every grow ,in dried herb material is 450 gr .

Case 1 ) with FR
: 4 weeks 18/6 vegging=504 hours & 10 weeks of 12/12 flowering =840 hour .Approx total time= 1340 hours

Energy spent : 0.4 kW * 1340 h= 536 kWh
Controlled Enviroment light efficiency = 450 /536 = 0.84 gr / kWh with r/b/fr combo ....

Case 2) w/o FR :4 weeks 18/6 vegging=504 hours & 14 weeks of 12/12 flowering =1176 hour .Approx total time= 1680 hours

Energy spent : 0.4 kW * 1680 h= 672 kWh
Controlled Enviroment light efficiency = 450 /704 =0.67 gr / kWh with r/b combo ....

Grower tries weird low wattage multiple panels...
200 Watt total...200 umol /sec there...
The average yield of every grow ,in dried herb material is 250 gr .
At 4 weeks 18/6 vegging=504 hours & 12 weeks of 12/12 flowering =1008 hour .Approx total time= 1512 hours
Energy spent : 0.2 kW * 1512 h= 302.4 kWh
Controlled Enviroment light efficiency = 250 /302.4 =0.82 gr / kWh with white combo ....


With a first look it seems that good balanced R/B/FR combos have the greatest efficiency....
Well for higher irradiances that is true...(Thus more light =more yield )
But at lower irradiances ,efficiency drops ...( due to "sun adaptation"...Extreme monochromatic peaks...)

While from the other hand...
Whites although ,at half power ,still produce good yields....
But plants under them ,can't tolerate extreme irradiances...


Edit :
( i.e. 400 Watts of whites ,might prove way too much..- It Might not..
But 600-1000 or more Watts( per 1.4-2.5 m^2 ) of white led sure is way too much light ,
for the PS II / Ch B " favoured" (shade adapted ) plants,under them....
Dunno..It needs further investigating....

While 600-1000 Watt of R/B/FR actinics might do a better job at such case..
(Plants get Sun Adapted ...
Mainly red /blues is characterised as "top canopy " light...
If 660 in mixture means(to plants ) also "strong top canopy light" ..
No greens-yellows -cyans for shade adaptance support of lower leaves..
.Leaves/Bud sites/ flower buds ,thus yield are concentrated at top part of plant ,rather than along stalks/stems...
Really efficient along with TOPPING/LST/SOG/SCROG....
Kinda Sucks with tree-style grows ,'cause of streching and random long branching....)
...
Efficiency can be higher than all above cases, with carefully designed actinic+Yag white combos...
There's where " led growing " is heading towards,anyway...
 

guod

Well-Known Member
Go Big, or Go Home.

americas way of living...

Ledneck Style by Guod

m30-rigg.jpg

to lower my reputation
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
I like it !

...Neat...

( Can have couple of bolts in between ,
as stoppers to prevent panels sliding / moving ,
if "pair block " placed angled...

And serve also as panel distance adjusters)
 

locoezon

Active Member
A little offtopic:rolleyes:

"guys i have been harvest my unknown strain"
03112012171.jpg


I
was missing the conversations already:-(:-(
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Well...
Last day of veg ,today was...
We had some changes....
(Never liked that particular day..Neither me or the plants ..)
Both ,have shown female preflowers....
Time for some trainin' now...

..ldv 1.jpgldv 2.jpgldv 3.jpg..

Oh...Get to know a bit the rest of the controlled environment horticulture site (phewww..) of mine...
..CEH site 5 inside tent.jpgCEH site 5 outside tent.jpg..
 

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
^^^^they make TD inline fans with a built in speed controller??? ,,,,,,Damn I want one......your adding a scrog screen on the first day of 12/12??
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
they make TD inline fans with a built in speed controller??? ,,,,,,Damn I want one......

Well,brother Psuagro,I've a confession to make ...
It was me,who installed the "speed select switch"...
("Double Way switch"...No " off "virtually ..."On line#1" at one position and "On line#2 " at the other..
Has to be for 220/240 V for EU ,or 110/120 V for US )

your adding a scrog screen on the first day of 12/12??

Well ....Yeap!
Kinda tough,usually with some losses in leaves,thin shoots,branches......Kinda depends on how much stoned I'm :bigjoint:.....
But accordin' to my schedule,has to be done yesterday...But I wasn't able to get the screen on time...
Anyway...
Oh...I should not forget that one....

Flowerin' in this grow doesn't start with 12/12 cycle....
It's starts with 13/11 ...For the whole first week...
Then it will drop to 12.45' / 11.15' ...
More ,about that weird schedule ,later...
Playing with Pr/ Pfr ratios...
Breakin' the rules once more....
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Flowerin' in general...
Flowering is the reproductive procedure of plant(s).
The more flowers produced ,the more chances for plant to bear seeds.
Since a flower gets pollinated ,it stops growth and prepares for seed construction.

Flowering sets in ,at different rates* ,as "vegetative growth" ,at different rates* again, ceases....
*Those rates depend in a wide variety of genome expressions but also in enviromental parameters (stimulant / stimulus ) ....

When referring to "vegetative growth" ,what is meant is the general biological "mode" or "stage" ,where the plant
produces new roots,stalk,stems,leaves,shoots,nodes & branches......Growth,at general..

At a certain point ,plant(s) under the "pressure" of genome expression or/and external stimulant(s),cease to grow ( gradually )
and begin to produce reproductive organs ( flowers ) ...Again gradually....

*As long ,as flowers do not get pollinated ,plant(s),continue to produce new flowers at high rates,most of cases... *

Regarding annual plants (1 year/season total plant lifetime ),as "grow season"(? ) reaches to end ,
unpollinated flowers wither,and plant dies .

When flowering has set in completely ,plant ceases to produce
new
roots,stalk,stems,leaves,shoots,nodes & branches...
Plant produce only flowers at that case ....


So with no new roots ,plant might exaust /spend all natural assimilates ,than can be assimilated by it's root reach ...
If soil nutrients exausted
(take into account autumn seasonal rainfalls [rain=almost distilled water ] which " leach" nutrients ,deep into earth..),
plant turns to own " nutrient storages" (old /"fan" leaves ) translocating mobile minerals (N-P-K-Mg ) from leaves to flowers
and consuming leaf energy resources at same time( starches/sugars=carbonhydrates).
Leaves then turn yellow (chlorosis ),wither and fall ..

Before natural senescence (=growing old ) occurs .
Short Day Plants
As Short Day plants ,are characterised those which possess a special biochemical mechanism ,an "oscillator",
whose main function is to measure the photoperiod . Daylight hours vs Night hours.
As winter approaches ,"days get shorter" and an Annual Short Day plant will be setting reproductive (flowering) procedures.
All vegetative metabolic procedures will cease gradually,as mentioned already.
Under Long Days ( i.e daylight >12 hours ) ,or Short Days( i.e daylight <12 hours )increasing to Long Days ( spring->summer ) ,
Short Day plants do not flower.

The " oscillator "...
Photoperiod is measured by plant " sensing " light.Complex natural pressures have led,SD plants to sense "daylight" using certain wls of sunlight ...
If one has a look at natural sunlight's (reaching Earth's surface )relative spectrum ,it's easy to see that the deep red wls around 650-680 nm ,are quite of the lowest in relativepower...!!!! ...???? ...
Being at same time the wls which provide over 5.5 umoles /sec per Watt ..
(large photon flux )...

Also ,Chlorophyll A [ ChA ] has both max "absorption" and "action " peaks close/around that range of wls ...

ChA being the main photosynthetic pigment at Photosystem I [ PS I] .
The "Sun Photon Harvesting System " .
It's not by luck or just a coinsidence that the most abundant Photosynthetic pigment ,
harvests most efficiently the rarest of red -photon rich- wls of natural sunlight....
...
Still under intense sunlight ,those deep reds ,do have the lowest relative power of PAR 400-700 nm light....
So,ChA is made to harvest efficiently ,those "rare",easy absorbable by atmospheric vapor or seawater ,
650-680
nm photons.....

So,for many different reasons ," working daylight period " for plants , is sensed if deep red light ( 650 -680 nm ) is harvested ...
Likewise the "photoperiod measurement system " of SD plants utilise those " rare "deep reds to measure daylight duration...
With peak around 660 -680 nm
[ R ] .
....
Using -likewise photosynthesis uses ChA -a " photo-sensitive " pigment...The phytochrome [ Phy ].
Unlike ChA the Phy doesn't harvest photons to turn them into electrons .
Thus it doesn't not produce energy (or biomass),as a photoreceptor pigment.
It can contribute heavily on that ,but in " indirect ways "
,acting on many biological procedures (i.e. at the rate of them).
When Phy harvests a deep red photon ,it just changes "state"...More like a switch..."on" & "off " ..0 or 1 ...
That "states" of Phy,detonate a series of metabolic procedures ,which have serious impact on plant.

Phy is not used for flowering...At least,solely...
Phy just measures light duration and light quantity(irradiance ) ,
by sensing a certain quality of light.
....its ..."rareness" ,sunlight's "weakest point"- but most photon rich wls
...The most Wanted ?...Do not rush ,to jump into such conclusions,about it...
...
Plants use less blue wls for driving PS ,although blue photons,do carry great amounts of energy...
And they are most abundant in natural daylight...
But photosynthetic pigments are more "receptive" to the lower power reds...
Thus in such a way ,to gather light from all wls almost equally ,depending on their "abudance" in sunlight ,maybe ? ....
Think about it,for a moment...
Phy "sensing & measuring " system is used by plant(s) for many other purposes,beyond setting "time to flower "....
But more about some of them,later on...
Let's stick to flowerin' ,for the moment being...

Phytochrome..How this switch works ?
Well,for starters it must have an " off position "...
Where nothing happens ...
This is called "Phytochrome Ground State " [ Pr ] ..
At this state Phy is ready to accept red photons...
Once red photons accepted ,Phy goes to "active state " ....[ Pfr ] .."On position"..
The more R (red light 650-680 nm ) energy { power x duration } ,
the more of ground state Phy - Pr -will rise to active Pfr state....

More intense stimulus....
...
And it is about time ,for statin', that this 'switch' has rather "fluid " final position..
Neither completely "off " or "on " ,---regarding natural environment,at least..

How's that possible ?

Well ,the 'mystery' lies ,to the way(s) Phy drops back to ground state.....
From Pfr back to Pr....
While there's only one possible way for Pr to 'rise' into Pfr state ,---being 650-680 nm irradiation...
There are more than one ways,to drop back to Pr state...
Why ?
Because in that way ,Phy measures light power ( or irradiance ),at same time as duration...
So Phy actually, is plant's Light Energy Meter ....

How exactly does that work ?
....
Simplified enough :

1)- Pfr drops back to Pr ,during total darkness...
The more hours of darkness the more of plant's Pfr will drop to Pr,again....

2)-Pfr ,partially,decomposes during darkness,while at same time new amount of Phy
(at state Pr ,of course..) is synthesised by plant...


3) -Far Red [ FR ] irradiation aka Near Infra Red [ NIR ] of sunlight ,turns the active Pfr back to Pr ground state.
The more FR irradiation of both duration or power ( total energy,in fact ) ,the more Pfr will 'drop' to Pr state...
Most Phy active range of FR is around 720-740 nm .
.....
-Pr: It absorbs preferentially red light with peak absorbance at 666 nm and when concentrated appears blue. It has minimal absorbance of FR, so that when phytochrome is saturated with FR, there is 97% Pr and 3% Pfr.
So, the maximum possible Percentage of Pr in plant ,
would be 97 % ,if irradiated with FR.

-Pfr: This isomeric form when concentrated appears green in color, and is the active form. It absorbs at a peak of 730 nm (in far red) but also absorbs some in red light, therefore preventing complete conversion of Pr to Pfr. Because of this absorption spectrum overlap, when phytochrome is exposed to saturating amounts of R, there is 85% net conversion to Pfr and 15% is Pr, the &#8220;photostationary state&#8221;.
Max Pfr percentage under intense R : 85% .
..
Phy also absorbs somewhat in the blue range, and BL also results in conversion of Pr to Pfr. But the contribution of phytochrome (as opposed to other blue-sensitive photoreceptors such as cytochrome) to blue-light exposure can be determined by the degree to which the effect is reversible by FRL.
...
The responses to Pfr include rapid and slower effects, and are subdivided as follows, based on total fluence (total photons expressed as &#956;mol m[SUP]-2[/SUP]),
and the rate of fluence or irradiance (expressed as &#956;mol photons m[SUP]-2[/SUP] s[SUP]-1[/SUP]).
Although FR can reverse the effects of exposure to RL,
after a certain period of time the reversal no longer occurs&#8212;this is &#8220;escape from photoreversibility&#8221;
.

Very Low Fluence Responses [ Phy VLFR ]: These can be initiated by fluences of RL as low as 0.0001 &#956;mol m[SUP]-2[/SUP]
(1/10 of the amount of light emitted by one firefly flash) and are independent of the rate of exposure.
These include the de-etiolation response in the oat coleoptile and mesocotyl, and the stimulation of
Arabidopsis seed germination by R (0.001 &#956;mol m[SUP]-2[/SUP] to 0.1 &#956;mol m[SUP]-2[/SUP]). These levels of light exposure
convert < 0.02% of Pr to Pfr, and the effect is not photoreversible (since there is always at least this
amount of Pr). Seeds close to the surface and therefore positioned for optimal germination would benefit
from this response arising from the very low level of R reaching them. Interestingly, it has been shown
that tilling fields in the darkness of night, leads to less germination of preexisting underground weed seeds,
apparently because even transient exposure to sunlight during tilling activates them to germinate.
The action spectrum for VLFRs matches the absorption spectrum for Pr, confirming that the Pfr which results is the active form.

Low-Fluence Responses [Phy LFR ]: These are photoreversible and occur with exposures of R > 1 &#956;mol m[SUP]-2[/SUP]
and saturate at about 1000 &#956;mol m[SUP]-2[/SUP]
. They include lettuce seed germination, regulation of leaf
movements, etc. The action spectrum for Arabidopsis reveals a peak response at 660 nm and a peak of
inhibition at 720 nm, consistent with Pr and Pfr absorption peaks, respectively.

High-irradiance responses HIRs: These responses require a high exposure rate (not just a high total photon exposure), are proportional to the irradiance and the duration, and are not photoreversible.
These responses include synthesis of anthocyanin in various dicot seedlings, induction of flowering in henbane, enlargement of cotyledons in mustard, and production of ethylene in sorghum. The action spectrum peak at 720 nm in the FR part of the spectrum for darkgrown lettuce seedling hypocotyl elongation inhibition, which is attributable to phytochrome, is due to a photoequilibrium of Pr and Pfr at FR.
(Other peaks at BL and UVA are attributable to cryptochrome CRY1 and CRY2 effects).
There are different forms of phytochrome, light-labile Type I and light-stable Type II.
In Arabidopsis, phytochromes are encoded by 5 different genes, PHYA, PHYB, PHYC, PHYD, and PHYE...
PHYA encodes light-labile Type I phytochrome, whereas PHYB encodes the most abundant light-stable phytochrome...

Genetic analysis of Phytochrome function (in Arabidopsis):
&#8226; Phytochrome A mediates responses to continuous FRL. In particular, VLFR and FR-HIR responses.
&#8226; Phytochrome B mediates responses to continuous White light or RL.
Specifically, certain R-HIR and LFR responses
.
&#8226; Roles for Phytochromes C, D, and E are not yet worked out .
&#8226; Phytochrome gene functions have diversified during evolution .

...
Other phytochrome-related photoreversible phenomena
include-(when Phy=>Pfr ),regarding SD plants :
*promotes de-etiolation at seedlings.
*promotes formation of leaf primordia ,at seedlings
*inhibits internode elongation .
*inhibits flowering.
*enhances Chl accumulation .
*promotes growth .
*promotes replications of plastids.
*promotes directional orientation of chloroplasts to optimize light capture .
*adaptation To Light Quality Changes of Sun-Seeking Plants:
Some plants respond to the ratio of red light RL (660 nm) to far red light FRL (730 nm).
This ratio R:FR is 1.2 in daylight, 1.0 at sunset, only 0.13 under a foliage canopy of ivy, 0.88 in soil at 5 mm, etc..
Sun-seeking plants (growing normally in open fields) can detect by the low ratio of R:FR ,
that they are being shaded by other plants[neighbor detection ability ],and exhibit a shade avoidance response,
by growing taller stems (with a greater internode elongation rate) usually at the expense of reduced leaf area and branching.
This behavior is not seen in shade-tolerant plants, which expect to grow in shaded environments.
Phytochrome is thus important in shade detection.
Understanding the mechanisms for shade avoidance and growth inhibition has helped
commercial manipulation of phytochromes, so that plants such as maize
have been made more tolerant of
shading
, allowing for higher crop yields arising from higher planting density.

(...meaning from plants which nevertheless ,receive less light .....Keep that in mind..
Higher crops,through Phy manipulation and not by adding more light power...)

*Germination Effects:
Small seeds may be inhibited from germination even when moist if they are exposed
to light with low R:FR ratio&#8212;they effectively sense that they will not succeed when strongly shaded by the
foliage of other plants. (They also sense if they are buried so deep as to be in darkness, and thus unlikely
to succeed upon germination.) Germination of larger seeds is less affected by shading plants, because they
have more reserve with which to send up longer shoots.
The inhibitory effect of low R:FR ratio on
germination of small seeds (such as the trumpet tree) can be reversed by filtering out the FRL, indicating
that it is the detected ratio that is inhibitory and not just the low absolute amount of RL involved, since the
RL remains low with FRL filtering.
Phytochrome effects are important early in germination... PhyB mediates the de-etiolation of a seedling
emerging from darkness into open sunlight (in which the R:FR ratio is relatively high). However, PhyA
mediates the de-etiolation of a seedling emerging from darkness into canopy shade (in which the R:FR is
low). &#8220;Because phyA is labile, however, the response is taken over by phyB... In switching over to phyB,
the stem is released from growth inhibition ... allowing for the accelerated rate of stem elongation that is
part of the shade avoidance response&#8221;.
*Modulating Effects&#8212;Cryptochrome [ Cry ] and Phototropin [ PHOT ]: cry2 mutants promote flowering in blue light by
repressing phyB function... CRY1 and CRY2 interact with phyA...

But where is that " oscillator " ,then ?
Well how exactly this " oscillator " works in plants ,for regulating circadian rythms is still pretty much a mystery..
Not fully understood to it's whole extend...
As many other parameters ,light-independant ,take place ...
More on them later on...

What is known ,is that Phy ,entrains the "oscillator"...
Gives the rythm,to the whole tune...

Enough for now about the Phy....
More later on...

( Still there is much to ..note down ,regarding flowering & growing,using leds...
Easy,now..
Step by step... )
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Scrog Screen: One of our Brothers on IC makes individual screens. This affords the ability to move plants around,or take in/out in case of whatev...
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
The male plant during those 28 days of vegetative growth produced:

- Sub-earth fresh biomass (roots ) : 55gr approx.
-Above Earth fresh biomass (stalk/stems/leaves/shoots): 95 gr approx.
-Total fresh biomass produced: 150 gr approx.
-Estimated Energy spend : 50 kWh
-Growth efficiency of leds (regarding male plant vegetative growth ) : 3 gr / kWh !!!

Other Biometrics
-Male plant Root/Shoot Ratio : 0.58
-Main stalk height to topping point: 5 cm
-Main stalk average diameter : 0.9 cm
-Secondary stalks length : 21-20-20-19 cm with 5 to 6 nodes each .(10-12 side branches ,each secondary stalk.)
-Secondary stalks aver. diameter on main stalk joint point :0.7 cm
Other notes:
-Secondary/Auxiliary( lateral ) root formation was much greater than radicle (primary root) ,probably indicating high levels of Auxin hormone.
(Quite opposed root formation to the greater radicle root growth ,than some previous males,which had grown under 630nm/660nm/CW/465 nm combo..)
-Stalks / stems are extraordinary "soft" and "malleable" ,while showing enhanced resistance to breakage ,due to bending or twisting.
But show decreased resistance to abrasion or puncturing...
Quite a different stalk/stem chemical & (maybe ) internal physical structure ,from plants grown under HID lighting ...
Suspected mechanisms that 've been altered and cause that phenomenon:
-water stem evaporation regulation (no heat irradiated from leds ? )
-K-Ca-Si assimilation and utilisation (light quality/quantity ? )
-Osmotic pressure alterations and Water uptake/losses ?
-Pectin,lignin,cellulose concentrations and analogies.

That one needs further investigating ..
 

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guod

Well-Known Member
-Growth efficiency of leds (regarding male plant vegetative growth ) : 3 gr / kWh !!!

3 gr/kWh per plant?
 
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