Defoliation

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kindnug

Well-Known Member
Air circulation can be just as important as humidity.
Humidity builds fast in stagnant air + this area has steady 60-80% relative humidity.
I've never had to use a dehumidifier since I have an abundance of air circulation.
Larger exhaust fan +/or more intake air.

Keep arguing if you must > it's so obvious...
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
HeartlandHank said:
So then why do you think the answer to your problem with PM is removing leaves?

You think that weighing the two options... it is better to have your plants more susceptible (with open wound) than it is to find another way to fight PM?
You think there is no other way?
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Are you not fully reading my replies?

I already told you that I found my answer, which was the same answer you previously suggested. I've changed genetics.

Why are you beating a dead horse? Yes, PM helped in my case. Deal with it. You can hate that fact, or you can love it. Doesn't really matter, because the fact remains the same: in MY SPECIFIC SITUATION, yes moderate leaf removal did indeed help with PM without affecting overall yield. I know, sometimes truths are hard to swallow. I understand. Get past your blockages, and see the world for what it is -- infinite.
 
HeartlandHank

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
PJ Diaz said:
Are you not fully reading my replies?

I already told you that I found my answer, which was the same answer you previously suggested. I've changed genetics.

Why are you beating a dead horse? Yes, PM helped in my case. Deal with it. You can hate that fact, or you can love it. Doesn't really matter, because the fact remains the same: in MY SPECIFIC SITUATION, yes moderate leaf removal did indeed help with PM without affecting overall yield. I know, sometimes truths are hard to swallow. I understand. Get past your blockages, and see the world for what it is -- infinite.
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Sounds like you had stagnant air around the plant without the leaves removed. Air circulation..

If you managed to pull off the same yields then great.. There is nothing hard to swallow about that.

If you are having problems with PM in the first place then you probably do not have your plants in a position to reach full potential anyway... Light, Nutrients, Water, Air.
With pieces already missing (air quality) it's not like you are going to be using all of the stored energy in the leaves anyway... pull em off. fuck it.
 
HeartlandHank

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
Pulling off leaves is just a bad practice... that's all I'm saying PJ... You can always solve the problem another way.
If you choose pulling leaves as your way because it is most practical.... cool. I'm all for measuring the return on investment.

Your specific situation is not in some other galaxy where a plant does not use its leaves to make energy for growth.
 
HeartlandHank

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
PJ Diaz said:
All I can say for sure is the results with a specific strain (G13-Haze) which was PM prone (possibly because I acquired it as a clone and already had PM). What I can say is that when I did a side by side with two identical clones and all other factors being identical. The only difference was the approx 30% leaf removal during flower at 14 days and again at 45 days. The yield was nearly identical on both accounts. The only noticeable difference being that PM infected a small portion of lower buds with a minor amount of PM on the plants which no leaves were removed, VS no visable PM on the plants which had the leaves removed as described.
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Yeah? Any threads on that side by side? Pics? Anything?
 
roseypeach

roseypeach

Well-Known Member
kindnug said:
Air circulation can be just as important as humidity.
Humidity builds fast in stagnant air + this area has steady 60-80% relative humidity.
I've never had to use a dehumidifier since I have an abundance of air circulation.
Larger exhaust fan +/or more intake air.

Keep arguing if you must > it's so obvious...
Click to expand...
it was deprived of good circulation for a day or so a few weeks back so she's been recovering ever
since.

BTW, she is doing great!!! check out my Snowstorm Trial thread and see for yourselves ;)
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
HeartlandHank said:
Nothing that would convince me or nothing at all? Try me..
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Here's all I really got. The two on the right hand side are the "A/B" plants. The front right had no leaves removed. The rear right had selective leaf removal. (The other two on the left are: rear = same strain with a different (test) nute regiment -- front = different strain)

IMG_20130118_203514.jpg

Here's a bud from the plant with selective leaf removal (short flowering G-13/Haze pheno @ 50 days 12/12):

IMG_20130110_014419.jpg
 
Mad Hamish

Mad Hamish

Well-Known Member
HeartlandHank said:
Well, I thought this was a thread about this vague (and becoming even more vague) technique known as "Defoliation", but these are my opinions regarding your question...

I don't think that you would get the same quality. Not cutting it off will get a little bit more yield with less consistent quality of buds. If you do cut them off, depending on when you remove the growth and how much you remove (stress) you will get slightly less weight overall but more consistent dense buds.
Basically, what you are getting is... Less bigger buds rather than more buds of varying size, but the same weight for the most part. Slightly less.

Once again though... you are solving a problem you have in a way that includes taking leaves from your plant which the plant uses to make energy.
Your "problems" are...
1) over crowded - which is the SoG way... you have to take branches off to make them fit in the space.
2) inconsistent size and density - Growing SoG you have this problem worse than those who space plants up with the max potential of their genetics.

Then here are ways you can do the same thing in a less harmful way to your plant... but still solving your problems.
!) over crowded -
---- Stop over crowding them. Your genetics at the size that you put into flower have a consistent amount of space they will fill and a unique way they fill that space.
---- So find out that space that your plants fill and come up with the most ideal plant spacing that works under your lights. Now you do not need to remove branches, this
---- allows the leaves that were on that branch to stay on the plant and produce buds.
2) inconsistent flower size and density
---- Instead of removing an entire branch, remove only the growth tips along the branch that are below your desired height. (Space between the grow media lower growth)
---- You can remove the growth sites/tips along the branch without removing the leaves attached... These leaves will help the plant in those early weeks of 12/12.

It's just a different way to do what you are going for but is less stressful to the plant as it is not removing leaves.
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So you're telling me I need to double the floor space (you ever see what a good 'flow table costs?), which means doubling the amount of electricity as I WILL double the lighting, in order to keep the same size run of clones? And all of that to actually sacrifice the quality of bud, as you yourself admit.
Point taken on removing the growing tips only, that makes a lot of sense to me indeed. But spending that amount of money extra to get lower quality bud? Wish I had your day-job bud.

I'll just stick to what works, thank you. I don't think I am stressing my plants any more than the natural plant pests I have in my outside garden. Since when is reefer this pussy plant that can't handle anything but perfection? It's not a bloody orchid man. A little bit of stress never killed anybody.
 
V

Vincent VonBlown

New Member
And if your to lazy to read, here's one of 100s of pics in the thread. Defoliated on the left, and undefoliated on the right. Clones of the same plant on both sides. defoliated.jpg
 
V

Vincent VonBlown

New Member
One of the main notes, that seems to get lost, is that defoliation must begin in veg state. You can't just pull all the leaves off any time you feel like it, and expect good results.
 
V

Vincent VonBlown

New Member
For further and exact clarification, both plants in the picture have actually been defoliated, the one on the left is more advanced and more defoliated. And the one on the right, is less advanced but needs another hair cut, so to speak ...
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
HH, you make some great points. Folks need to heed you.

I keep hearing about the need to remove leaves because some of you think you're cramming plants tightly together. NO ONE crams plants together like I do, and I have NEVER removed anything. I don't know what some of you guys are doing but I'm almost inclined your feelings are over-riding good judgement, IF, you can find good judgement with most of the "advise" at RIU. I'll post this link one more time to show you what CRAMMED plants is really all about. Within weeks, my plants are 'huge' by forum standards. Look at Week 4 - some are already 27" tall. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html

Do these looked spaced apart to you? The leaves of one plant is under, through and around the leaves of its sistas:

2001garden3.5weeks.jpg

Garden@17daysFlower#2.jpg

Garden3WksFloweringWideAngle12_26_03.jpg

TrainRidingLadies1_17_04.jpg

TrainXSweettooth42DaysFlowerB1_15_04.jpg

Secondary harvests, one is Thai-tanic nugs drying the other with a Jack Herer with nugs still on the plant. The JH is quite tight and dense. Why? Because the plants' resources which includes carbos, enzymes, amino acids, proteins, and hormones are NOW focused, directed, to what's left the plant. This is called apical dominance. Now to you New Age World Order leaf pluckers, you're shit of of luck. You have to have leaves at the lower levels to pull this off. The fat colas were cut off at the point where just below them they were airy.

I can get up to 1 oz. of dried bud from a plant doing a secondary harvest this way.

TTsecondaryHarvest1.jpg

JHSecondaryHarvest2_1_04.jpg

Uncle Ben
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Vincent, no offense brother, but I am not impressed by IC Rag forum-speak or your outcome after defoliation.

IC Rag is just another cannabis forum - it's half a dozen of one, 6 of the other no matter what forum you choose to visit. IC Rag is big regarding membership. I used to be a member of the biggest - OverGrown and the second biggest, Cannabis World and IC Mag. They were no different regarding content and it all came with the same old paradigms, gimmicks, and anecdotal evidence.

UB
 
HeartlandHank

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
Vincent VonBlown said:
I am so tired of people that don't have a clue to what defoliation actually is and how it works. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163 <=Thread started by a 30 year expert, it's full of pictures and totally documented facts on the process.
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Vincent, your technique does not seem much different than the other link floating around this thread. That guy also says "30 years of defoliating".

I've been going through the thread and looking for the "totally documented facts". Not sure where they are... I have made it to page 9 so far.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
HeartlandHank said:
Sounds like you had stagnant air around the plant without the leaves removed. Air circulation..
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Really! What is it about using fans that these folks don't get? For starts I'd never grow in a tent. You're just asking for logistical problems. My indoor garden "walls" were open at the bottom, like about 12" above the floor. A window fan sat on the floor by a side panel and blew in cool fresh air into the bottom of the garden which helped exhaust hot moist air out the top.

UB
 
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