Funny how things work

[canndo]

Countries don't make decisions, individual people do. Sometimes individuals agree to band together to commit good things or bad things, but the choices are made individually.

I don't support institutionalized violence.

Wrong. there is a group mentality and group motivations that are self amplifying. Mobs do what mobs do as agragates of individuals who have given up a portion of their reason while they are within that mob dynamic. countries are often mobs. Until you manage to understand the grand dynamics of mankind you will continue to espouse ideologies that do not comport with humanity as it expresses itself. The point of government is to dilute the force of raw human nature. That is why we have laws, convention, code, societal norm, sanctions, jails, police, judges, and all of the other constructs of civilization. Civilization is dependent upon a heirarchy of order and expectation among the individuals within that civilization. As soon as two people get together there is instantly politcs and a domination of one over the other - this is always the case and this is the root of the folly of your ideology.

 

[cannabineer]

~sigh~ I shot my rep bolt. Canndo is dead on imo. cn

 

[Antidisestablishmentarian]

I know how people struggle against this concept - the thought is abhorant to us, why we are a free people, we make our decisons based upon our own understanding in a total vacuum right?


Except as I say, the imperical evidence is that we do indeed do as corporations wish us to do.

1. Corporations are unlikely to long spend large amounts of money on something that does not work
2. Corporations spend billions on advertising and marketing and.... information camapigns that establish awareness and preference. Sometimes research discovers these preferences and uses them to their advantage, other times they simply implant preferences, still other times they actually create realities for us and we rarely know it has happened.

Consider PR campaigns by energy companies. Most of them go right by us. They need not advertise their product because for the most part we cannot opt for one energy source over another - they are forced upon us. That new train commercial with the smart car - what are they selling? certainly they are not attempting to convince us to use their trains. they in fact are conditioning us to accept the transport of products using their trains. Health insurance companies never EVER advertise that their products are cheaper or more efficent, they tellus that they are dependable, that they care about us, they want us to be healthy. That is PR - and it works

We know it works because companies pay billions and they have feedback mechanisms that indicate that indeed their goals are met - or THEY WOULD NOT SPEND THE MONEY.


If a new PR/marketing/advertising campaign comes out and they find a 12 percent increase in sales of their products - what has happened? They have either taken that market share from another company or produced a new market share - either is inflicting itself upon your free will. Each individual must always believe that they have the free will to select coke over pepsi, both or neither but that sense of free will is essential for those pr campaigns to work.


If I get that car, women will like me - is a strong motivation to for a male to purchase the car - but the car has nothing to do with getting women, it has to do with safety and transportation. Our free will has been bent now to believe that a car will get us laid. Furthermore, the woman is influenced into thinking that the man with that car is more viril - they as well have given up some of their free will while believing all the time that they HAVE that free will by being able to select the particular man who drives that car.


Fact is that this sort of thing is quite perfected and in so being, you are not in posession of free will quite so much as you are led to believe - where even that being led to believe is robbing you of free will.

So when Gronk had a better club and/or fur coat that didn't help get him some poon? There were no advertisers then...

Maybe you have succumbed to it, and others have as well, but it doesn't get us all.

Companies put out products hoping it will sell. Lots of them don't. Including ones with badass pr.(new coke for instance)

I think where we differ most is here:

There will always be choices. For everything. Our free will comes into play in our decisions. You seem to think there is none. Yes companies do try to influence your decision, but they can't stop you from choosing something else.

 

[ChesusRice]

So when Gronk had a better club and/or fur coat that didn't help get him some poon? There were no advertisers then...

Maybe you have succumbed to it, and others have as well, but it doesn't get us all.

Companies put out products hoping it will sell. Lots of them don't. Including ones with badass pr.(new coke for instance)

I think where we differ most is here:

There will always be choices. For everything. Our free will comes into play in our decisions. You seem to think there is none. Yes companies do try to influence your decision, but they can't stop you from choosing something else.

There was a golden age of Libertarianism in this country or have you forgot?
At one time Monopolys ruled over what choices consumers had, it took goverment intervention to stop the abuses of the consumers by those same monopolys

 

[Mr Neutron]

I already have Neutron. individuals may think they have free will but they do not. Or are you going to tell me that every obese person intend to be so, and that every smoker intended to be addicted. Corporations work very hard to instill in the public their notion of free will - so long as that free will is actually the ability to freely chose between their competing products - nothing more..

That is a cop out to avoid responsibility.

 

[Mr Neutron]

As always you are misreading the human motivation. When I see a bunch of bricks, the only bricks there are and I see them cracked and broken and you ask me to build a church from those bricks - I say rightfully that no matter your faith in the soundness of those bricks you bring me - there is no way.

You have no imagination.

 

[Mr Neutron]

There was a golden age of Libertarianism in this country or have you forgot?
At one time Monopolys ruled over what choices consumers had, it took goverment intervention to stop the abuses of the consumers by those same monopolys

Yeah, so in come the progressives and now we have political monopolies, as well as "too big to fail".

 

[ChesusRice]

Yeah, so in come the progressives and now we have political monopolies, as well as "too big to fail".

What political Monopoly?
Care to extrapolate? Lehmans Brothers Failed.

 

[beardo]

magnets???????

 

[Antidisestablishmentarian]

There was a golden age of Libertarianism in this country or have you forgot?
At one time Monopolys ruled over what choices consumers had, it took goverment intervention to stop the abuses of the consumers by those same monopolys

And yet back then they could have gone without the oil and the steel and the rail roads.... They could have made other choices. That's really the gist of free will to me.

 

[ChesusRice]

And yet back then they could have gone without the oil and the steel and the rail roads.... They could have made other choices. That's really the gist of free will to me.

Yes they could of chosen to live in the stone age as well

Do you have a point?

Conversly you can always move to Somalia and advocate and live your freeloader lifestyle there

 

[deprave]

Firstly, i trust the nature of man implicitly, or rather ri trust in my assessment of that nature, that nature can be relied upon, more so if that man is within a group but also if he is an individual.


I don't think you understand the nature of information vending firms. Imagine 5 informational firms offering information about the products of a company - on firm might actually clandestinely work for the firm in question. The othes have varying sucess in determineing the worth, value and efficacy of the product - so you get 5 different opinions from which, as a consumerr, to make your judgment. Or are you going to have yet another informational firm over those, and one on top of those?


Furthermore who pays for these firms? consumers? how is that efficient?

You already walked right into it when you said you don't trust the nature of man because greed will create monopolies essentially, yet for some fucking reason you trust an omnipotent government which is ran by men to do just that, have a monopoly, the private sector is way more efficient than government, we observe this on a daily basis.

You do realize what you wrote makes no god damn sense right? I can't believe you actually realize the governments monopoly on force, pointed it out bluntly, and somehow you think its a good thing? For most people that's the main hurdle they need to get over before they become libertarian/anarchist they need to understand this, most are just in denial of this its indoctrinated in our psyche from our birth that the government is a divine power for good and absolutely necessary and very hard to break through that trance.

 

[ChesusRice]

You already walked right into it when you said you don't trust the nature of man because greed will create monopolies essentially, yet for some fucking reason you trust an omnipotent government which is ran by men to do just that, have a monopoly, the private sector is way more efficient than government, we observe this on a daily basis.

You do realize what you wrote makes no god damn sense right? I can't believe you actually realize the governments monopoly on force, pointed it out bluntly, and somehow you think its a good thing? For most people that's the main hurdle they need to get over before they become libertarian/anarchist they need to understand this, most are just in denial of this its indoctrinated in our psyche from our birth that the government is a divine power for good and absolutely necessary and very hard to break through that trance.

Yes we have a Monopoly on our Goverment. Thats not a a bad thing it is called empowerment.

 

[Saltrock]

Yes anything created by man is imperfect, but as imperfect as the government is, I can't imagine self governance by people as an individual or corporations with no oversight. We had a time in early american history where private industry ruled the land with little oversight and we see how that turned out. Unfortunately big business seems to have more influence in washington then they have in a long time. Politicians taking money for favors. I think our founding father set up an amazing system of checks and balances. Where it takes a consensus of most to agree or disagree on a issue. Excluding outside influence, I think this is the best way to ensure protection in many facets of our nation. I am not in favor of big government, but do see the necessary in a strong government to protect the public.

When and where in this world has their ever been a society where their hasn't been some type government or hierarchy and only self governance was the model? These firms you speak of I think would have just as much potential of collusion and corruption that the government has.

Yes, it bothers me a lot that a portion of government is corrupt and wasteful. But you know what, I feel that I have enjoyed this land with very little infringement on my rights. I think once government goes way too far, people on both sides will stand up to government. I think their is a point where people even on the left would stand up to overreaching government.

Peace
Salt

 

[Mr Neutron]

What political Monopoly?

Progressives and Neocons

Lehmans Brothers Failed.

Sacrificial lamb.

 

[Mr Neutron]

I am not in favor of big government, but do see the necessary in a strong government to protect the public.

... and what protects the public from a strong government?

Yes, it bothers me a lot that a portion of government is corrupt and wasteful.

... just a portion?

But you know what, I feel that I have enjoyed this land with very little infringement on my rights.

Yeah, you chose well, to be born in the US.

You feel obligated to the government because your freedoms haven't been completely destroyed?

I think once government goes way too far, people on both sides will stand up to government. I think their is a point where people even on the left would stand up to overreaching government.

What is too far and what scenario would prompt the advocates for more government to say "enough"?

 

[cannabineer]

You already walked right into it when you said you don't trust the nature of man because greed will create monopolies essentially, yet for some fucking reason you trust an omnipotent government which is ran by men to do just that, have a monopoly, the private sector is way more efficient than government, we observe this on a daily basis.

You do realize what you wrote makes no god damn sense right? I can't believe you actually realize the governments monopoly on force, pointed it out bluntly, and somehow you think its a good thing? For most people that's the main hurdle they need to get over before they become libertarian/anarchist they need to understand this, most are just in denial of this its indoctrinated in our psyche from our birth that the government is a divine power for good and absolutely necessary and very hard to break through that trance.

In this instance I believe i understand and agree with canndo. I would dare to say that he didn't say that gov't monopoly on power isn't so much a good thing as the least bad thing. The alternatives tend to decay into civil war. cn

 

[deprave]

Yes anything created by man is imperfect, but as imperfect as the government is, I can't imagine self governance by people as an individual or corporations with no oversight.

Where do you get the no oversight idea?

 

[Saltrock]

... and what protects the public from a strong government?

My hope would be us. I would hope that once government becomes to oppressive, we would revolt.

Yeah, you chose well, to be born in the US.

You feel obligated to the government because your freedoms haven't been completely destroyed?

What are these freedoms you speak of that restricted you from enjoying this beautiful land?

What is too far and what scenario would prompt the advocates for more government to say "enough"?

That is a good question. I imagine when government becomes big enough to where you can't even function in your daily life. Or when government actually kills its citizens in the US without do process.

I like how you avoided the question when I asked, when or where has their be a civilization where there wasn't government or hierarchy? What is your alternative?

Peace
Salt

 

[Saltrock]

Where do you get the no oversight idea?

Well who does the overseeing in a civilization with no government? Tell me more about how the private sector will do this from enforcement all the way to prosecution.

Peace
Salt