Funny how things work

[Mr Neutron]

Not true at all. In a completely free market and a country with porous borders we will see the price of labor go down until there is an equilibrium and that equlibrium will be below the poverty level for many. It will be a "can you name that tune" sort of a game. Corporations will offer the least amount of money they can and there will always be someone willing to work for less. Those who work for less will not have the ability to purchase necessities and fewer laborers will be needed making employment even more precious,driving the cost of labor down even further. Eventually there will be a reversion to serfdom where the average individual will have no personal wealth at all. That personal wealth will be concentrated at the top and according to what I understand ( you don't believe in inheritance taxes do you?), that wealth will be more and more concentrated into a ruling class. That class will rule based upon the scarcity of jobs and the fact that those who work will have no leverage in the form of personal wealth.

Ignorance breeds fear.

 

[Mr Neutron]

You make the classic mistake that most do, you presume that consumers have free will.



They do not.

OMFG!!! Please elaborate, I need a good laugh.

 

[canndo]

"I have seen this many times"
in the existent corporatist structure you have seen this many times, which IS NOT A FREE MARKET you have seen this problem many times yet your proposing that we keep doing the same shit, just want to bring that up..

"You are presuming that there is a limited number of potential employees, that it is a seller's market, so long as there are porous borders, which is what I said to begin with, there is no shortage of labor. If there is never a shortage of labor then the value of that labor will always go down. No company needs to compete for labor."

So your "presuming" that porous borders will happen and result in a lack of labor shortages, granted this is historically true, however, in a free market there is an increase in need for workers and the quality of those workers because of an increase in trade and competition. Yes they will need to compete for labor because of increased competition and trade.

You are putting the cart before the horse here.porous borders happen because it is politicaly expedient and it is politicaly expdient because corporations insist upon it.

 

[canndo]

THAT regulating is done by competing firms which are regulating said firms which are competing which are hired by people via contractual arrangements, if said firm is say, dumping toxic waste in the river, I would presume that they would be fired and in favor of others.

"As I said, libertarians make fundamental mistakes about the nature of man."

So why if you do not trust the nature of man, why should essentially one man have a monopoly on force? This is your "fundamental mistake", believing that government gives a fuck about people and is some sort of divine power for good. There is no exception to "the nature of man" and the government, its ran by men, which are not held EQUALLY accountable for their actions because they have a monopoly.

Firstly, i trust the nature of man implicitly, or rather ri trust in my assessment of that nature, that nature can be relied upon, more so if that man is within a group but also if he is an individual.


I don't think you understand the nature of information vending firms. Imagine 5 informational firms offering information about the products of a company - on firm might actually clandestinely work for the firm in question. The othes have varying sucess in determineing the worth, value and efficacy of the product - so you get 5 different opinions from which, as a consumerr, to make your judgment. Or are you going to have yet another informational firm over those, and one on top of those?


Furthermore who pays for these firms? consumers? how is that efficient?

 

[canndo]

OMFG!!! Please elaborate, I need a good laugh.

I already have Neutron. individuals may think they have free will but they do not. Or are you going to tell me that every obese person intend to be so, and that every smoker intended to be addicted. Corporations work very hard to instill in the public their notion of free will - so long as that free will is actually the ability to freely chose between their competing products - nothing more..

 

[Rob Roy]

Yes, by consent of the governed, a certain body should have a monopoly on the use of force. There is no other way. libertarians seem to believe that the cohersive force of the group will bring the cohersive force of a conglomerate into line simply by refusing to purchase a product. That doesn't work on a number of levels. Someone eventually has to "force" a corporation for example, into a court and prove that corporation is doing damage to something outside of itself. Then a body has to "force" that corporation to comply or force that corporation to comply with the sanctions imposed upon it. By it's very nature, the body must have enough power to do such a thing. We already see the abuse when a government does not have the motivation to sanction. Much worse would be a state where the government hasn't the ability.

You assert - "There is no other way". That's an incredibly closed minded statement.

So the only way to provide services and arbitrate disputes is the bully makes the rules and also enforces the rules? The results of that "civilization" have lead to chaos, war and record prison populations. Of course there is another way...your cognitive dissonance is keeping you stuck in your rationalization that what presently happens is the ONLY way it could happen.

You more or less say government is a necessary evil. I say evil is unnecessary. Therein lies our differences. Dispute resolution using the government model does not ensure restitution to the aggrieved party does it?

 

[Rob Roy]

I already have Neutron. individuals may think they have free will but they do not. Or are you going to tell me that every obese person intend to be so, and that every smoker intended to be addicted. Corporations work very hard to instill in the public their notion of free will - so long as that free will is actually the ability to freely chose between their competing products - nothing more..

Governments work very hard to instill in the public the notion of free will. Fixed it for you.

 

[canndo]

You assert - "There is no other way". That's an incredibly closed minded statement.

So the only way to provide services and arbitrate disputes is the bully makes the rules and also enforces the rules? The results of that "civilization" have lead to chaos, war and record prison populations. Of course there is another way...your cognitive dissonance is keeping you stuck in your rationalization that what presently happens is the ONLY way it could happen.

You more or less say government is a necessary evil. I say evil is unnecessary. Therein lies our differences. Dispute resolution using the government model does not ensure restitution to the aggrieved party does it?

As always you are misreading the human motivation. When I see a bunch of bricks, the only bricks there are and I see them cracked and broken and you ask me to build a church from those bricks - I say rightfully that no matter your faith in the soundness of those bricks you bring me - there is no way.

 

[canndo]

Governments work very hard to instill in the public the notion of free will. Fixed it for you.

No, you did not, corporations instill in the people that not only is "choice" among their offerings "free will" but there is something godly and patriotic about their offerings, as though mere selecton is actually choice.


If I give you three flavors of icecream, do you have free will? no, you have choice, an entirely different thing. It isnot government that is the culpret here. I am astounded that you continue to ignore the coroprate component of the equation here, holding corporations perpetualy blameless for all evil performed in a society - "well goernment MADE them do it" simply ignores the responsibility of the corporation itself. "well consumers MADE them do it" is ignoring the fact that consumers have little say in what they are offered.

 

[Rob Roy]

No, you did not, corporations instill in the people that not only is "choice" among their offerings "free will" but there is something godly and patriotic about their offerings, as though mere selecton is actually choice.


If I give you three flavors of icecream, do you have free will? no, you have choice, an entirely different thing. It isnot government that is the culpret here. I am astounded that you continue to ignore the coroprate component of the equation here, holding corporations perpetualy blameless for all evil performed in a society - "well goernment MADE them do it" simply ignores the responsibility of the corporation itself. "well consumers MADE them do it" is ignoring the fact that consumers have little say in what they are offered.

I'm not sure what you THINK my position is. But isn't government similar to a corporation in that they are a form of a corporation and also limit free will ? I'm not a big fan of corporations, since they are government creations and protected. Check mate.

 

[canndo]

I'm not sure what you THINK my position is. But isn't government similar to a corporation in that they are a form of a corporation and also limit free will ? I'm not a big fan of corporations, since they are government creations and protected. Check mate.

Government limits free action and it comes right out and tells you it's intent. Even then there are direct consequences that are spelled out. Not so with corporations. WE do not take part in the goings on in private corporations (sure you will say that we can refuse to purchase their products but that has no bearing ifyou have alreadyb been stripped of your free will in these matters). You ARE a big fan of big business because your philosophy will breed bigger and bigger businesses.

 

[Rob Roy]

Government limits free action and it comes right out and tells you it's intent. Even then there are direct consequences that are spelled out. Not so with corporations. WE do not take part in the goings on in private corporations (sure you will say that we can refuse to purchase their products but that has no bearing ifyou have alreadyb been stripped of your free will in these matters). You ARE a big fan of big business because your philosophy will breed bigger and bigger businesses.

I'm a fan of liberty, peaceful interactions and responsibility. The size of another persons business is none of MY business or YOURS as long as they did not commit fraud or harm others to achieve their status.

Big business couldn't exist without being a government protected corporation ? There you go again with that two dimensional thinking of accepting "what is" as what must always be.

You are a fan of the institution that permits the existence of corporations. My philosophy will ensure a peaceful world and opportunity for people to live unmolested if they simply agree to leave others alone.

While one side of your mouth seems to be against monopolistic corporations, the other side is embracing government which is a huge monopoly.

 

[canndo]

I'm a fan of liberty, peaceful interactions and responsibility. The size of another persons business is none of MY business or YOURS as long as they did not commit fraud or harm others to achieve their status.

Big business couldn't exist without being a government protected corporation ? There you go again with that two dimensional thinking of accepting "what is" as what must always be.

You are a fan of the institution that permits the existence of corporations. My philosophy will ensure a peaceful world and opportunity for people to live unmolested if they simply agree to leave others alone.

While one side of your mouth seems to be against monopolistic corporations, the other side is embracing government which is a huge monopoly.

"I am a fan of liberty, peaceful interadtions and responsibility" - yes, you certainly are, but until ALL people cling to the values you espouse, you will be abused and barring a change of human nature you will never ever find an entire community composed of people like yourself.

 

[Rob Roy]

"I am a fan of liberty, peaceful interadtions and responsibility" - yes, you certainly are, but until ALL people cling to the values you espouse, you will be abused and barring a change of human nature you will never ever find an entire community composed of people like yourself.

Well thank you. Every long journey must start with the first step.

 

[canndo]

Well thank you. Every long journey must start with the first step.

What you intend is the alteration of man. Many have held out for that possibility - communism fails consistantly because their form of goernment runs contrary to man's penchant for aquisition and stratification between himself and other men. Man is a preditor, man is a pack animal, man is by nature an agressive creature that will take advantage of any weakness he sees around him, moral or not. He will BY NATURE seek to subjugate others, bend them to his will, and finally enlist them to his cause, for better or worse.

Passivism has been proven to work, but only if the enemy of the pasivist has either a self awareness or a concience - many do not. Unless you can remove all evil from the earth, passivism will take thousands of years and millions of lives to triumph.

 

[Antidisestablishmentarian]

If I give you three flavors of icecream, do you have free will? no, you have choice, an entirely different thing.

This comes off bad in a few ways:
1. I do have other choices. None of the above, go elsewhere for more flavors, or have no ice cream. What part of that is not free will?
2. Corporations invented these flavors. No....
3. People don't actually like any of those flavors. Uh no....

This one is more an "in general" statement:
You come off as if every single one of us is brainwashed by commercials. Not the case.

 

[Rob Roy]

What you intend is the alteration of man. Many have held out for that possibility - communism fails consistantly because their form of goernment runs contrary to man's penchant for aquisition and stratification between himself and other men. Man is a preditor, man is a pack animal, man is by nature an agressive creature that will take advantage of any weakness he sees around him, moral or not. He will BY NATURE seek to subjugate others, bend them to his will, and finally enlist them to his cause, for better or worse.

Passivism has been proven to work, but only if the enemy of the pasivist has either a self awareness or a concience - many do not. Unless you can remove all evil from the earth, passivism will take thousands of years and millions of lives to triumph.

I'm not a pacifist. I don't believe in initiating aggression, (being the one to start shit) . That doesn't mean I don't belief in self defense when more peaceful options seem unavailable.

 

[canndo]

This comes off bad in a few ways:
1. I do have other choices. None of the above, go elsewhere for more flavors, or have no ice cream. What part of that is not free will?
2. Corporations invented these flavors. No....
3. People don't actually like any of those flavors. Uh no....

This one is more an "in general" statement:
You come off as if every single one of us is brainwashed by commercials. Not the case.

I know how people struggle against this concept - the thought is abhorant to us, why we are a free people, we make our decisons based upon our own understanding in a total vacuum right?


Except as I say, the imperical evidence is that we do indeed do as corporations wish us to do.

1. corporations are unlikely to long spend large amounts of money on something that does not work
2. Corporations spend billions on advertising and marketing and.... information camapigns that establish awareness and preference. Sometimes research discovers these preferences and uses them to their advantage, other times they simply implant preferences, still other times they actually create realities for us and we rarely know it has happened.

Consider PR campaigns by energy companies. Most of them go right by us. They need not advertise their product because for the most part we cannot opt for one energy source over another - they are forced upon us. That new train commercial with the smart car - what are they selling? certainly they are not attempting to convince us to use their trains. they in fact are conditioning us to accept the transport of products using their trains. Health insurance companies never EVER advertise that their products are cheaper or more efficent, they tellus that they are dependable, that they care about us, they want us to be healthy. That is PR - and it works

We know it works because companies pay billions and they have feedback mechanisms that indicate that indeed their goals are met - or THEY WOULD NOT SPEND THE MONEY.


If a new PR/marketing/advertising campaign comes out and they find a 12 percent increase in sales of their products - what has happened? They have either taken that market share from another company or produced a new market share - either is inflicting itself upon your free will. Each individual must always believe that they have the free will to select coke over pepsi, both or neither but that sense of free will is essential for those pr campaigns to work.


If I get that car, women will like me - is a strong motivation to for a male to purchase the car - but the car has nothing to do with getting women, it has to do with safety and transportation. Our free will has been bent now to believe that a car will get us laid. Furthermore, the woman is influenced into thinking that the man with that car is more viril - they as well have given up some of their free will while believing all the time that they HAVE that free will by being able to select the particular man who drives that car.


Fact is that this sort of thing is quite perfected and in so being, you are not in posession of free will quite so much as you are led to believe - where even that being led to believe is robbing you of free will.

 

[canndo]

I'm not a pacifist. I don't believe in initiating aggression, (being the one to start shit) . That doesn't mean I don't belief in self defense when more peaceful options seem unavailable.

then when a country decides that you have oil it wants, and it does not want to pay for that oil, what will you do as an individul in a country that has disbanded do?

 

[Rob Roy]

then when a country decides that you have oil it wants, and it does not want to pay for that oil, what will you do as an individul in a country that has disbanded do?

Countries don't make decisions, individual people do. Sometimes individuals agree to band together to commit good things or bad things, but the choices are made individually.

I don't support institutionalized violence.