So how about banning all semi-automatic weapons?

[Carthoris]

I see no need for that question. I also don't see any but the few rare absolutists claiming that we all are entitled to fully automatic weapons, are the rest also bound by your philosophical question? The point remains that you are accusing me of maintaing a stance that I do not put forth. This is another example of the reason the gun toters are looked upon with such distaste by the rest. "we don't think you folks should have rounds that are capable of penetrating body armor" - "but.. but... you want to take OUR GUNS AWAY", "this is just the first step and then those jackbooted sorts will march from house to house and get them all", "you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers" - now is that the sentiment of someone who views a firearm as "just a tool?".

If they outlawed artwork, would you support hiding it from the government, illegally having it, and fighting against confiscation of it?

Maybe it is the principle of the matter rather than the actual matter.

 

[Carthoris]

How is that of consequence? I firmly believe that the underlying rationale of the 2nd Amendment was to maintain a balance of power between government and populace, specifically a balance unfavoring government.
Now we have semi- and full-auto weapons.
If you follow the logic, they should not be restricted from the general populace.
That logic does eventually lead to absurdity. Nukes are also now a technology in hand, and there is no way a nuke can be used to correct a social imbalance. They are hopeless tools for revolution. I would add strategic bombers to that list of useless area weapons.
But drawing the line within the domain of "dumb projectile weapons", up to and including anything that doesn't lob an explosive projectile, seems arbitrary and strict to me ... and worse, it plays into the hands of the keepers of the ratchet that seems to operate where civil liberties are concerned. It only goes one way: tighter. cn

I want a rocket launcher, Santa.

 

[Carthoris]

I must be extemely lucky as I have yet in my 60 years to see anyone from the government approaching me with their automatic and attempting to "take my stuff".

When was the last time anyone came up to you with a gun and took your shit?

 

[Carthoris]

Yet your limits are just as arbitrary. And that balance is not maintained. A single armed and armored hellicopter upsets that balance rather quickly, or should we all be trained to fly as well?

How many helicopters and jets got shot down by people with rifles in Vietnam? They didn't exactly have awesome sniper rifles. They were shooting at us with ratty Mosin Nagants using iron sights.

 

[Carthoris]

You are still operating out of an all or nothing mindset. My point was and is firstly that folks think that all laws pertain only to purchase. Because of that they believe that "only criminals will have 'semi-automatic weapons'". My point is that should they become illegal, manufactures could easily be ordered either to stop manufacturing them or stop selling them - this would not force the company out of existance any more than ordering a toy company to stop selling toys with lead paint on them would put them out of business.

Which brings up another point - why are gun makers exempt from liability in these cases? Why are they exempt from all liability? Drug firms are not, ladder manufacturers are not. Oh, I forgot, they are liable because their products do not work as advertised and intended but guns are.

A hammer company isn't liable if someone kills someone with a hammer. Your comparisons are stupid at best. Drug manufacturers are liable if you take their drugs as directed and it causes issues with lots of people. They aren't liable if people eat a whole bottle or Tylenol wouldn't exist. Beating someone to death with a ladder also would not make the company liable.

 

[Carthoris]

So gun control DOES work.

Would you be ok regulating and raising the cost of Abortion so that it was so expensive and hard to get that you no one could really get one?

 

[Carthoris]

too heavy? i hunt with an enfeild no 1 mk 3, a remington model 8 (semi auto of browning design) a brazilian large ring 7mm mauser a remington model 7 in 30/06 and a winchester 1895 in 30/30, each one is far heavier than my brother's AR, and each one packs plenty of one shot kill.

i've never used my grandpappy's rifle to snap off rapid fire after a miss, it's just nice having the autoloading action in case you come up against a bear, or if the boar doesnt go down as neatly as you'd hoped.

I shoot wild boars with my Mosin Nagant carbine. I like having the bayonet

 

[Carthoris]

Those 20 kindergardeners should have been armed? All I am saying is that the banning of fully automatic weapons has managed to keep most automatic weapons out of most civilian hands and few mass shootings are committed with fully automatic weapons. Now it is possible that all of the last few mass killings could have been committed with knives, but it would be very unlikely. Now I see that you are reverting to the relative mereits of death by gunshot to death by knife wound. THAT is a reasonable argument for the widespread use of guns if ever I have seen one.

You realize the guy probably would of shot less people with an automatic, right? Have you ever shot any automatics? I am guessing you haven't.

 

[Carthoris]

NoDrama,
I tried explaining that to his thick skull. So I'll say it again. NYC heavily controls guns. The crime rate is nearly the same. The only difference now, crimes with knives went up 50%. Guns and knives have their pros and cons in the criminal's perspective. Law enforcement claims long distance and high body count as gun dangers. Reality shows, the fact a knife makes no sound during use, unlike a loud gun. With a dense population, like in NYC, you can knife someone and since no one hears it, can get to a further distance away before others complain. You get the fuck out of there once you hear a gun.

Why is crime so much higher in anti-gun states? Is there something wrong with the people there?

 

[NoDrama]

Why is crime so much higher in anti-gun states? Is there something wrong with the people there?

If I wanted to commit crimes but was allergic to ventilation holes, I too would pick safer territory to prowl. The only thing easier than shooting fish in a barrel is shooting unarmed fish in a barrel.

 

[canndo]

Oh, so when we count government murders all murders aren't attributed to all governments but when you count gun deaths all gun deaths are attributed to all guns. I see. Hypocrite. The reason those governments killed so many people is because people like you gave more and more power to them to feel safe. They never start out as tyrannical murdering nutbags. Government = genocide machine.

My 'assault weapons' or 'evil black guns' or 'hi cap magazines' never killed anyone - why would you hold my guns accountable for ones some nutbag stole and used to kill people?

What the hell are you talking about? I
asked that you show us deaths in the U.S. that are directly attributable to the Federal government - the only thing that all of us can do something about, seems you are unable to do that.

 

[canndo]

If they outlawed artwork, would you support hiding it from the government, illegally having it, and fighting against confiscation of it?

Maybe it is the principle of the matter rather than the actual matter.

do let me know the next time "art work" kills 20 kingergardeners in a couple of hot minutes.

 

[canndo]

Would you be ok regulating and raising the cost of Abortion so that it was so expensive and hard to get that you no one could really get one?

Point is, it works. I thought you folks said that gun control laws never work.

 

[NoDrama]

do let me know the next time "art work" kills 20 kingergardeners in a couple of hot minutes.

A couple of minutes?

It took police TWENTY MINUTES TO RESPOND.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-timeline/?hpt=hp_c2

At the police station, dispatchers began to take calls from inside the school. Authorities say the first emergency call about the shooting came in at "approximately" 9:30 a.m.
"Sandy Hook school. Caller is indicating she thinks someone is shooting in the building," a dispatcher told fire and medical personnel, according to 911 tapes.
Police and other first responders arrived on scene about 20 minutes after the first calls.

Twenty fucking minutes, no wonder so many died.

 

[NoDrama]

Point is, it works. I thought you folks said that gun control laws never work.

works at doing what? Decreasing violence and deaths? It doesn't, as has been demonstrated time and time again. All it does is reduce deaths by gun, because those people who obey the laws cannot use guns anymore to defend themselves. The criminals could give a shit less what laws you make, they aren't going to obey them.

IF I could magically make all the guns in the world disappear overnight, you would see a MASSIVE reduction in deaths caused by guns afterwards. Doesn't that sound like a good idea?

 

[curious2garden]

Murder is already against the law. So if someone is willing to break the law and murder someone why would anyone think they wouldn't break the law to use a gun to do it?

Ok so the argument is, "They won't be able to use a gun since no one will have one."

Currently Cannabis is under Federal prohibition (See the controlled substances act of 1970). How much trouble does the average person have finding cannabis? But there are cannabis users that actually believe gun prohibition will work? How ironic.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Let me get this straight. Their are fewer machine guns and grenade incidences due to regulation set back a long time ago, and how would more guns= less violence? Oh right criminals only target gun free zones. I have to go to work ladies , love you guys, don't beat each other up all day.

Peace
Salt

there were very few machinegun crimes and almost no grenade crimes when those things were LEGAL.

banning lazer weapons and light sabers in california (since repealed) didnt stop jedi crime nor did it slow the advance of the Hut organization into california's lucrative stolen starship chopshops.

banning machineguns and grenades was a "reasonable" response to a few well organized gangs of motorized bandits, who were the only ones who could pay the exorbitant price for machineguns, since they were knocking over banks.

the subsequent 1968 "and now it's DOUBLE BANNED" crime bill didnt do shit to stop crime with the things it purported to ban (sawed off shotguns were extremely uncommon and mainly used by bandits already, and grenades and machineguns were already banned in 1934) in fact the 1968 law did NOTHING to prevent crime, it simply codified the federalist position that all things are commerce, and sawing a couple inches off your shotgun can make you a felon. huzzah!

before 1934 if you had a machine gun, or grenades you were almost certainly a bank robber or oddly enough, a postal worker or federal agent.
even before the 1968 omnibus bullshit crime bill, if somebody had a sawed off shotgun it was a pretty sure bet they were criminals already.
they might as well have banned pantyhose masks and big sacks with dollar signs on them as well.
you might have noticed the feds didnt ban THEIR goons from using automatic weapons or grenades, just the opposition.
in THEIR hands these evil MURDERGUNS become tools to defend our freedom, from nefarious and sinister threats like Elian Gonzalez or a guy who is growing chile peppers if the DEA helicopter "Dope Expert" identifies those chilis as evil marijuana.

i propose that the citizens have a much better track record of not burning out a farm full of 7th day adventists (including children! Think Of The Children!) or shooting up rural cabins and popping off sniper rounds on women holding babies. (Lon Horiuchi got a commendation for shooting Vicky Weaver) or dropping helicopter fuel tanks onto cabins in puget sound or dropping bombs on pittsburg apartment buildings.

in the end i would rather trust my neighbors and THEIR accountability for their actions than the government. i propose we ban guns for government, and eliminate all gun control for the people. i reckon that might work better than the current scheme.

 

[CSI Stickyicky]

A couple of minutes?

It took police TWENTY MINUTES TO RESPOND.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-timeline/?hpt=hp_c2




Twenty fucking minutes, no wonder so many died.

This is why we need to allow CCW permit holders to enter schools. If only ONE teacher/parent/delivery personnel/janitor/principal had a CCW permit, and knew how to shoot, the outcome may have been much different, like the Clackamas mall shooter who took out 2 people, then was confronted by an armed citizen and then ran off and killed himself.

Before they passed the so called "safe schools act" people didn't shoot up schools. After they stopped allowing citizens to protect themselves in a school, every psycho with a beef against society knows where to go to massacre innocents with no one to stop them.

 

[curious2garden]

This is why we need to allow CCW permit holders to enter schools. If only ONE teacher/parent/delivery personnel/janitor/principal had a CCW permit, and knew how to shoot, the outcome may have been much different,........snip......

I agree and here's why. Awhile back I saw this young man yelling and shouting to himself while carrying a rifle cutting through my yard apparently headed to the local elementary school. Based on his diatribe it was obvious where he was going and what he planned to do when he got there.

I immediately phoned 911, as did my neighbors. I then phoned the school and attempted to warn them, sadly I only got a busy signal. The police still didn't get there until there were deaths. If someone at the school had been armed the tragedy would not have been nearly as bad.

 

[Kervork]

The last time I had to go out into the dark, hunt down a psycho tweeker and hold him at gunpoint it was with an AR-15 with bayonett.

When it comes time to pull out a gun, there isn't a gun in the world too big or too scary.

And the tweeker, he's fine and back in prison. Had I have tried that with a smaller less impressive weapon he may have resisted and been killed.