Advanced Lighting Spectrums for T5 Floro and LED

[Fonzarelli]

Something is fucked up with the forum. Some of my photos have mysteriously disappeared. I don't know what's going on and until they fix it I will be sticking to text only.

 

[polyarcturus]

yeah i kept wondering why it was doin that to you pm the mods.

 

[Dwezelitsame]

they all have there place and there purpose

if cant handle heat in yo setup get t's

if heat not a factor get hps or cmh
for depth of light coverege and hard buds

cfl and floro tubes have there place as well for seedlings and veg

it comes down to your setup and style of growing if you doin scrogs can cfl - t tube -flour
to grow christmas tree style need hps or cmh
for penatration of coverage

for instance cmh,mh best for veg cycle
cmh mh best for first 1/3 of flower = cut back on stretch
hps best for 2nd 1/3 of flower =rock hard buds
last 1/3 best served by mh cmh= aids in final bulk on satage

i use both lights all the time spin pots 1/4 turn every day
rotate under lights once a week

i use a 250w eye hortilux -hps and a 250w phillips -cmh
two great bulbs


I an I

 

[Fonzarelli]

Alright after more reading I'm thinking my lamp order will consist of these.
Flora Sun
Aqua Sun
Red Sun
Coral Wave

IMO the Coral Wave lamp consists of way more blue than you should use in flower. But as many people have already pointed out, it depends on the strain of which you want more of blue or red. Make sure to balance your spectrum properly or you will start seeing some weird shit happen as well as decrease yield. This is pretty much the main topic at hand here. All you can do is try it.

My Sativa's are still yielding and flowering quite well in a blue heavy, low-near red/and high deep red spectrum. Really tasty stuff. My Indica's bailed half way into flower when there was an abundance of blue light and not enough red, and perhaps near red as well after seeing what PF was getting at about radiometric effienccy quantum yield and what not.(still waiting on a reply about the graph)

 

[mrcourios]

IMO the Coral Wave lamp consists of way more blue than you should use in flower. But as many people have already pointed out, it depends on the strain of which you want more of blue or red. Make sure to balance your spectrum properly or you will start seeing some weird shit happen as well as decrease yield. This is pretty much the main topic at hand here. All you can do is try it.

My Sativa's are still yielding and flowering quite well in a blue heavy, low-near red/and high deep red spectrum. Really tasty stuff. My Indica's bailed half way into flower when there was an abundance of blue light and not enough red, and perhaps near red as well after seeing what PF was getting at about radiometric effienccy quantum yield and what not.(still waiting on a reply about the graph)

Thanks for the input,I have a 8 lamp fixture and I ordered 4 Flora Suns,3 Red Suns,2 Aqua Suns and 2 Coral Waves so that I can change lamps out to go more red or blue.

 

[mrcourios]

My plan was for Veg, 3 Flora Suns,1 Red Sun,2 Aqua Suns and 2 Coral Waves.
And for flower,3 Flora Suns,3 Red Suns,1 Aqua Sun and 1 Coral Wave.

 

[Fonzarelli]

they all have there place and there purpose

if cant handle heat in yo setup get t's

if heat not a factor get hps or cmh
for depth of light coverege and hard buds

cfl and floro tubes have there place as well for seedlings and veg

it comes down to your setup and style of growing if you doin scrogs can cfl - t tube -flour
to grow christmas tree style need hps or cmh
for penatration of coverage

for instance cmh,mh best for veg cycle
cmh mh best for first 1/3 of flower = cut back on stretch
hps best for 2nd 1/3 of flower =rock hard buds
last 1/3 best served by mh cmh= aids in final bulk on satage

i use both lights all the time spin pots 1/4 turn every day
rotate under lights once a week

i use a 250w eye hortilux -hps and a 250w phillips -cmh
two great bulbs


I an I

I've used a mh + hps + 630nm/660nm LEDs with realllllly good results. I do have a cmh, but I haven't really used it yet. I use the 400w Hortilux Blue MH instead of the cmh because it has a nice blue spectrum.

 

[PetFlora]

PF, we ARE onto something big here. I'm sitting here trying to decide what I should do. Focus on one spectrum for all my Sativa dominant strains and just use the trusty ol' MH and HPS for my Indy's, OR, actually figure out WHAT the wavelengths are that the Sour D and my other Indica dominant strains are lacking in so that I can build it into one light, and adjust that spectrum with a dimmer.

I checked out the Sour D today after moving the lights closer to them. They corrected themselves a little bit, but not nearly as much as under the 630nm dominant fixture.

Could you please answer my question about those graphs? The one's on the back of the Hortilux packaging vs. the scientific one that I posted? I would like to know if these are 2 different types of graphs or if they mean the same thing. There are a lot of people out there that would agree that most plants do not require the 500-610 part of the spectrum.

Could it be just the 630 red-orange that the Indica dominant strains prefer? I would like to conclude this research by finding out if, for cannabis varieties, the green through orange spectrum is required at all. What if it's just 630 and up? What if the Indica's prefer the shallow red 630nm OVER the 660nm, and the Sativa's are the other way around?

With this being said, it makes me wonder if Indica's maybe prefer the more visible part of the red/blue spectrum and for Sativa's the more non-visible parts of red/blue? Just a thought.

I am the wrong person to ask. People like Weez, Rasser, Verdant green, Mj Coco, or The Lurker, among others have a much more scientific expertise. I pretty much follow their lead as best I can

 

[PetFlora]

like right now i have to take 2 6"x6" 3/8" steel steel drill 2 holes in each drill 2 holes in the frame of a car bolt it all together then bolt a sway bar linkage to that then weld it all together for good measure. then i have a power steering pump that need replaced in addition to the lines. i have to reroute the security sytem and bridgne the ignition around it and about a dozen other things i missed.

@PF you can be both hard and easy to read most of the time the only reason i dont understand something from you is when you use a complicating string of words, keeping the sentence short, but making the understanding of what you implying easy to understand but only if you know the words and how they relate.

okay well im done here for now i will be checking on to see how it progresses but i have nothing pertinent to add right now my mind is on cars.

I hear you. that's' pretty much how I feel reading info from guys who are waaay over my head. However, I read and reread until some of it seeps through

 

[PetFlora]

now that definitely means we have more in common than you think and thats what i figured, i now know why we butt heads .

yeah stay with the guns man safer for everyone IMO. the thing about fighting is much like wolves to me i believe there is some truth to physical dominance.

and last but not least i dont do drugs. i dont really consider weed a drug to me at least not now a days.. but that and a few other thing maybe once a year is all i do. i do not drink at all tho.

and trust me i dont act as ghetto as your portraying simply that must be how i appear to you since my initial comment to you was ghetto as fuck.

but hay all the luck keep up the good work your right back to business im on the sidelines unless i can come up with some good info.

There are a number of natural options to heal your spine. Alas, I do not recall where I read them but if you google natural remedies for your condition you might get on the road to eliminating oxy

 

[PetFlora]

^^^^^^way cool bro.

I received an email back in reply to Illumitex in regards to critical differences in plant physiology and morphology based on different spetra.

Here is their response:

Hi Barry-

Thank you for your inquiry.

Wait WTF? I thought Fonz's real name was Henry Winkler

 

[PetFlora]

Responding, primary to your post #40but in fact, all of your queries. Here's my analogy...

I have many years experience with hi-end audio. Sony's BIG lie when they introduced digital (CD players) was Perfect Sound Forever, but it never sounded as good as analogue. Decades of R & D have gone into resolving digital's inherent problem: It chops up the sign wave, making it look more like steps. Digital converters attempt to fill in the missing information. People spend BIG $$$ on exotic converters to solve this.

I look at bi-wave spectrum fixtures (R/B) as light spectrums version of digital. All spectrums are needed, it just a question of how much of each.

 

[Fonzarelli]

Wait WTF? I thought Fonz's real name was Henry Winkler

Barry is just my code name. You think I would actually use my REAL name with someone I don't even know? lol

 

[Fonzarelli]

I hear you. that's' pretty much how I feel reading info from guys who are waaay over my head. However, I read and reread until some of it seeps through

For the last week this is exactly what I've been doing. I have been re-reading posts over and over from the expert growers that I follow. IT HAS FINALLY SEEPED IN. These are posts that I first read back in February and they are only just now starting to make perfect sense.

I find it amazing how you can read something once, think you know exactly what the person is trying to say, but it sounds like something isn't right or doesn't make sense. Then, you go back and re-read and you find out it's yourself who just never understood it the first time. I'm super guilty of this as you guys already figured out.

Hopefully I can learn how to become more frugal and to the point with my ideas/posts. I'm well aware that it will make things much more efficient for everyone in the long run. This is the first forum I've really ever been active in before so I'm bound to not get it quite right the first time.

It's extremely important to re-read posts made by people because there is always this little voice in your own head that thinks it has everything figured out(judgements) when in reality you only see half the picture. Kind of like how when you watch a movie the second time around you see things you never knew existed.

@PF I actually have to re-read your posts to grasp the concept as well. Every single person in here is a highly-intelligent being that hasn't realized their full potential yet. I believe, through bouncing ideas off each other, we can come to that realization much faster.

I studied Einstein's life in school. I took a whole semester class on just his ideas, accomplishments, and personal life. It was amazing, as well as heartbreaking, to find out what an ass he was to his lady and friends. He thought that he knew it all when in reality he didn't.

Einstein was part of a club that thye called "The Olympia Academy" which basically consisted of a couple friends and his wife in where he would bounce his ideas off of them and they would make them into reality(pretty much for him).

Without this club they formed, Einstein's ideas would not have gone anywhere. If it wasn't for his wife who really took his ideas to a higher plane, Einstein would not have been as recognized as he is today.

Historians have debated whether his wife influenced his work, but the majority of academic historians of science agree that she did not. BUT, if it wasn't for his wife and friends and the club they formed, Einstein's ideas would never have made it into reality. He was really a very passionate slacker on his own, but through is friends and wife amazing things happened that is still explaining much of the Universe to this day.

I know we are not all Phd's in quantum physics, but we all smoke the mind-opening herb which as everyone knows, opens the doorway to pure thought and intuition. I really don't think it is necessary to know the scientific formulas, models, graphs and charts to get a basic understanding of how spectrum works for different plants. I'm sure it would help greatly if we did however! LOL

I would agree that a person can "feel" the different wavelengths and what they do to plants. My opinion has changed already from page 1 about the near-red wavelength and it's function/s.

I am going to make a newly educated guess that since you are growing Indica's mainly and have had so much luck with the RedSuns(633nm) through veg and through flower, that this is the wavelength they are lacking in a 460nm/660nm limited spectrum. That and a little green maybe.

I get what you are saying now about how HPS light is 75% yellow 600nm wavelength and yet plants are able to use the light quite efficiently still.

I guess I would like to try and refer to the 630nm spectrum as more of a 600-645nm shade of light or range of light that gives your overall spectrum the "reddish" tint that it needs to flower Indica's properly. 660nm deep red is not as intense red so even though 660nm is more absorbant for the plants, it's overall "less" red in color and does not get the over all color of the spectrum to that reddish tint as efficient as 630nm does and as quickly.

I'm tempted to believe that the 630nm wavelength is the one that needs the most adjusting(dimming down or up depending on strain/variety). But it is still not as absorb as much as 660nm does, it just has more "overall light power". I believe this is also known as "Quantum Yield."

I find it interesting that Green light through yellow and orange actually has the highest quantum yield. This is where I think PF went wrong a little getting Quantum Yield confused with light absorption for photosynthesis and phytochrome processes.

PF, if you could do some extra research on Quantum Yield, phytochrome, PS1 and PS2 and try to put it into english for everyone I think it would help progress this thread. I have read it over and over again with no avail. It's hard for me to understand and I find myself tuning out while reading.

 

[PetFlora]

Henry, aka Fonz, Heyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Again, I am not the goo-roo you think I am. Just a chela on the path, following others with much greater knowledge and understanding. I take from them what I can comprehend at that moment, and leave the rest for another day. The info I copied here (#23) from IC I have reread many times, and keep it in my In Box for quick referral

I do not use Red Suns in veg. I use UVL Aquasuns + Florasuns + Quantum Grow bulbs mostly because I bought 8 of them prior to Profs thread. Red Suns + Aquasuns in early flower; ASs get replaced with Coral Waves + 660

 

[polyarcturus]

well written post fonz i too studied Einstein and read several of his very confusing books.(that man was terrible at comparisons. the hot air balloon and relativity theory chapter took me about a week to understand when i was younger) but anyways that was very well written.

 

[polyarcturus]

I hear you. that's' pretty much how I feel reading info from guys who are waaay over my head. However, I read and reread until some of it seeps through

hell yeah i need more patience to be honest. but i prefer when people are straight foreword and break it down its just simpler the complications can be learned later or asked about thats kinda how i feel or i will lead you into the complications so you can do the research yourself, Canndo does this to me all the time when talking about shroom, guy is fucking smart but prefers not to be straight forward.

you where saying something about back pain and oxy? i do not do oxy i oded when i was young and i only ever take pills when i am truly ill. and i dont really have back pains that i know off, just cluster headaches which is why i eat mushrooms once a year, but i have not eaten any for a long long time now.

 

[Fonzarelli]

@Poly, thanks for the compliment. It's definitely a struggle sometimes to put my words on paper. But when it starts flowing I just can't shut it off.

@PF, oxy's my poison. I'm the one with the back problem.

 

[Fonzarelli]

Quick update in the rainbow world of spectrum:

The Sour D that originally had the odd twisted type of growth has corrected itself after moving the lights closer to the canopy. Right now, the UVL 660nm spectrum heavy fixture is doing better things to ALL the strains than the fixture that is heavy in 630nm.

This is what I'm going to now conclude as fact:

630nm light is better at "balancing" out a blue heavy spectrum to a level that plants can respond well to depending on the "spectrum color" demands of the specific strain that is the subject. Basically it contains more visible "red" light energy to adjust the actual "spectrum color."

Quantum yield is highest for wavelengths in the visible spectrum. Green and Yellow wavelengths have the highest quantum yield. Therefore, 630nm Red is going to have a slightly higher quantum yield than 660nm deep red. PF, this is what the info you present is talking about.

Quantum yield and "absorbance" are not the same thing because if they were, that would mean plants absorb more Green wavelength than any other wavelength which is the opposite of reality.

One can get by with fewer 630nm lamps in a fixture to balance out the blue lamps. This is where Poly is right about his lamp choices. For Veg, you could very well get by doing a 1:1 ratio of red to blue if you are only using the RedSuns.(I know you already mentioned 1:2 red/blue, but I'm using 1:1 for now as an example to explain this.)

If you decide to use 660nm lamps, make sure you use at least 1 RedSun for every 2 of the 660nm lamps. 1:1 630nm/660nm would probably work as well.

Either way, the more 660nm you have in your spectrum, the faster your plants will grow and the bigger they will be, thus allowing maximum yield. 1g/W here I come!

The same color adjusting quality can be achieved using more 660nm overall. The only question that comes from this is if there will be problems having an abundance of 660nm and if the 630nm will be needed to come back into play in order to "dull down" the extra 660nm that will be used to adjust the spectrum to the red side.

660nm light can still effectively balance out the spectrum color in the same way, but with far less intensity requiring either;

A.: your 660nm lamps need to be closer to your canopy

or B. you use twice as many 660nm lamps

Overall, 660nm light is the winner hands down. With it's high absorbing powers and efficiency at driving both chlorophyll A, B and phytochrome processes, it brings the best of all worlds combined into one.

Yes, I am safely saying this after a 2 day period of testing. If any of you were here beside me you would see what I'm talking about. It's fo real.

All strains of plants under the 660nm fixture have put on an extra 1" of growth more than the plants under the 630nm dominant fixture in only 2 days time.

I still have some extra testing to do. I will build an LED fined tuned spectrum in the next week to see if I get this same "perfect" reaction I'm getting, but WITHOUT 630nm altogether.

The only 630nm that will be in my light source will be in the few warm white LEDs that I will be using mainly for the green spectrum. Honestly, I don't even know why I'm putting any warm whites in there other that there is evidence that green wavelengths may do something. LOL

Either way, it should be a very fun and interesting project. Updates to come.

 

[polyarcturus]

i will run a few phototrophom test over the next week.(ive done it before but i guess for this thread it would be worth it to record it) i run a 6 bulb fixture in veg, with 420nm 460nm x2 florasun x2aquasun which i feel it a blue dominant spectrum but i turn off all the blues for 12 hours. and run x2 florasun for 24hours which mean the veg plant are lit by red only for 12 hours. what i will do is replace the florasuns and put them on the bright cycle(when all 6 bulbs are one for 12 hours) and replace them with the 420nm and 460nm for the 12 hours of 2 bulb low light, what i had noticed doing this some plants would begin to flower, i have another 420 and 460, i am also getting a purple plus from a friend and x2 blueplus (ATI brand new) soon, so i could x2 420 or x2 460, and of course replace these old actinic im using(these bulbs are fairly old) any input fonz? only reasin i have the avialablity o do this is i dont need the plants flower this moment but this will give me a jump start when i swith to my new tents, so it wont hurt me to run these few test, i am gonna keep my spectrum the same because under these lights growth is 2x as fast as a halide(ive used halide since i started growing for veg, i will never switch back, now, looking back it just seems so pointless as to why use Mh even if you need a lot of long vegged plants)

also i will record the strains and thier dominances and types sativa, indica, hybrid i have one of each in veg.

but i will get to work on these test in a few days i have a little bit off cleaning up to do around my house and grow room not to mention finish fixing the car( my helper broke a nut off in the caliper ) and my new job i will be starting soon.

note: th bulbs in the fixture currently meaning the 420nm and 460nm are Truelumen, so no SPD. ive trie emailing several time frim several emails to no avail.