LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

[hyroot]

Now that's what I like to hear! So how come you originally thought that your yield was disappointing? Doesn't sound disappointing at all, in fact it sounds pretty appointing lol!

Do you think you'll do a side by side with equivalent wattage of HPS and T5?

I've noticed that the buds under my T5 are slightly smaller than my HPS of equivalent wattage. I am doing a very non scientific, trial of GLH LED 180W, 400W HPS, and 432W T5. It's not a trial really, I just wanted to give the plants as much light as I could so I threw up 3 different fixtures literally side by side. Funnily enough I think it's the LED that's got the largest buds which I didn't expect, but the T5 has the best quality. Now also bear in mind that we are not using the same bulbs either and my bulb mix may be less than ideal for flower.

I am testing the ZooMed Flora Suns as a base bulb just because their spectrum is pretty good and they are really easy to get (PetCo). I have 3 UVL Red Suns and 2 UVL Super Actinics in there as well. I was going to put the Fiji's in but I ordered the 80W VHO version because BulkReef was out of the 54W bulbs thinking it was no big deal to put a VHO bulb in a HO fixture. You may in fact be able to do this, but it turns out that the VHO was 60" long, so I couldn't even use it. Sunuva!

I was disappointed becaus I got way kore per plant amd had less plants under the 1000w. But the 1k ones were huge. The t5 ones were half the size. I mean the plant not the buds. All tye problems I stated. At first I didnt take that into consideration.


I want to do 2 t5 8 bulbs and 1 or 2 pro grow 180's between the t5's. It will be a long time til im able to do that.

 

[pr0fesseur]

I don't understand these claims. Plants have evolved under the spectrum of the sun for millions of years. The best spectrum to grow earth plants is the sun. Mimicking that spectrum would be ideal no?

Actually no...
BILLIONS OF YEARS!
Plants are damaged by MOST of the suns light. white "yellow" light is essentially useless to plants.. good for us.. See the sun ACTUALLY emits
UV
XRAY
far infra red radio waves etc
also known as solar radiation...
Most of the suns radiation is harmful to ALL LIFE..
thats why we have a magnetosphere\atmosphere to filter that all out.. and even then plants have evolved to use light during certain times of day and different wavelengths to MAXIMIZE the radiation the CAN use.
Tricomes and most AUXINS have been shown to serve as a "shield" against UV radiation. Plants also produce many solar defenses like a waxy coating that diffuses the light and green pigments provide protection to other "yellow" "orange" and "red" pigments which are more easily damaged by sunlight.

 

[hyroot]

Actually no...
BILLIONS OF YEARS!
Plants are damaged by MOST of the suns light. white "yellow" light is essentially useless to plants.. good for us.. See the sun ACTUALLY emits
UV
XRAY
far infra red radio waves etc
also known as solar radiation...
View attachment 1963238 Most of the suns radiation is harmful to ALL LIFE..
thats why we have a magnetosphere\atmosphere to filter that all out.. and even then plants have evolved to use light during certain times of day and different wavelengths to MAXIMIZE the radiation the CAN use.
Tricomes and most AUXINS have been shown to serve as a "shield" against UV radiation. Plants also produce many solar defenses like a waxy coating that diffuses the light and green pigments provide protection to other "yellow" "orange" and "red" pigments which are more easily damaged by sunlight.

You do know that in the us and europe that there isnt really any infra red light and uv-b. infra red light and uv-b is mostly along the equator

 

[pr0fesseur]

Can you tell me why you guys think the UVL Red Suns are good for bloom?

View attachment 1962925 Red spectrum we need must peak at 640nm and 660nm, and anything inbetween.
View attachment 1962926Here the "plant grow" bulb shows plenty distribution in that area, especially since the band is wide. That big 450nm spike might be more beneficial to flowering than we think. I don't like the green spike though, still better than the red sun.
View attachment 1962927 Very little at 640nm and basically none at 660nm, the HIGH output at 610nm to 620nm is actually BARELY usable. Look at how much Cholorophyll is made at those spectrums.


Using my nooby paint skills I was able to show the high red spectrum the Red sun emits ontop of the plant absorption chart:
View attachment 1962931


Showing that the red suns are indeed trash and you'd be better off with Aquafloros or Plant Grow bulbs

Aquafloro:
View attachment 1962932

Not to shut you down but chlorophyl isnt MADE at those specrums... its "sensitive" and produces more energy at that spectra.
the trich is to find a bulb that has a very narrow output with a specific spectra... these specific spectra are easier to control like the super actinics are 420nm perfect.. no other light is produced so they are as efficient as possible.
ALL the other bulbs prouce light ACROSS THE ENTIRE SPECTRA... except the red suns...
the red suns also if you look VERY closely have the VERY FAR RED! which plants seem to LOVE, and if you put in the red suns EARLY it will FORCE them to flower!
now i USED to use the ATI pro color.. but they have since been discontinued in 48" lengths.
yes the red suns have issues, and i think its a damn shame... BUT you can return them and the suppliers are VERY helpful and good at doing so with no hassles!!!

 

[Calrt]

On a side note, my T5 plants are much darker green then the HPS.

 

[pr0fesseur]

You do know that in the us and europe that there isnt really any infra red light and uv-b. infra red light and uv-b is mostly along the equator

care to wager on that?

 

[Redoctober]

the red suns also if you look VERY closely have the VERY FAR RED! which plants seem to LOVE, and if you put in the red suns EARLY it will FORCE them to flower! now i USED to use the ATI pro color.. but they have since been discontinued in 48" lengths. yes the red suns have issues, and i think its a damn shame... BUT you can return them and the suppliers are VERY helpful and good at doing so with no hassles!!!

So if the Red Suns force flowering, should I not be using it in veg?

My Veg mix was: Flora Sun --- Red Sun --- Super Actinic --- Flora Sun

 

[hyroot]

[/U]6803]care to wager on that?
View attachment 1963255

According to that chart all the uv-b and infrared is only in the southern hemisphere. If that chart is correct, I am half right. We still dont get infrared and uv-b in the northern hemisphere.

 

[hyroot]

Not to shut you down but chlorophyl isnt MADE at those specrums... its "sensitive" and produces more energy at that spectra.
the trich is to find a bulb that has a very narrow output with a specific spectra... these specific spectra are easier to control like the super actinics are 420nm perfect.. no other light is produced so they are as efficient as possible.
ALL the other bulbs prouce light ACROSS THE ENTIRE SPECTRA... except the red suns...
the red suns also if you look VERY closely have the VERY FAR RED! which plants seem to LOVE, and if you put in the red suns EARLY it will FORCE them to flower!
now i USED to use the ATI pro color.. but they have since been discontinued in 48" lengths.
yes the red suns have issues, and i think its a damn shame... BUT you can return them and the suppliers are VERY helpful and good at doing so with no hassles!!!

Doesn't far red mean infrared? Passed 700nm. The redsuns do not have that. From what I have done. Its the coral waves with the infrared that induces flowering early. Not th redsuns. YOu can use the redsuns in veg but not the coral waves. I already jad issues with the coral waves inducing flowering in less than a day im my veg on a 18/6 cycle.

I think you are confusing yourself.

 

[jewgrow]

See, I think there's something going on "behind the scenes". I don't believe we know enough to perfect the plant growing environment. There will always be wasted energy, no matter which system you use. HPS and MH definitely waste much more electricity and light. Just by how hot they get it is obvious energy is wasted. The perfect spectrum LEDs and T5s don't have nearly enough penetration. The sun is perfection for plants. Growing is a life system and when we remove or add one constant, we change the entire process.

 

[cannabineer]

See, I think there's something going on "behind the scenes". I don't believe we know enough to perfect the plant growing environment. There will always be wasted energy, no matter which system you use. HPS and MH definitely waste much more electricity and light. Just by how hot they get it is obvious energy is wasted. The perfect spectrum LEDs and T5s don't have nearly enough penetration. The sun is perfection for plants. Growing is a life system and when we remove or add one constant, we change the entire process.

Imo that is reason to try, both necessary and sufficient. Unless you believe there is a spirit-component that only el Sol can satisfy ... an alternative belief is that plants are von Neumann chemical reactors and can be optimized as such. Jmo. cn

 

[organicbynature]

Think of your light like soil.

The two blue hot spots and the two red hot spots are your N-P-K. You will use these in most abundance to the greatest effect. All the other wavelengths are the micronutrients, the bacteria, fungi, enzymes, etc. Other wavelengths help to varying degrees and are generally important in some quantity, and there are additional synergistic benefits as well (at least some of which we are surely unaware).

This is how I see it anyways.

 

[Redoctober]

Doesn't far red mean infrared? Passed 700nm. The redsuns do not have that. From what I have done. Its the coral waves with the infrared that induces flowering early. Not th redsuns. YOu can use the redsuns in veg but not the coral waves. I already jad issues with the coral waves inducing flowering in less than a day im my veg on a 18/6 cycle. I think you are confusing yourself.

Right! I remembered it being the Coral Waves that were to be avoided during veg, not the Red Suns.

 

[hyroot]

I just read an article in maximum yield. About photosynthesis. it stated that chlorophyl A makes up 75% of the chlorophyl that absorbs light in green plants. Chlorophyll absorbs most light between 680nm and 700 nm. Magazines like tht have fact checkers im sure.

So we need to find a red bulb in that range.

 

[PetFlora]

Arabic, you can't just say Red Suns are junk because it is not at the peak nm. Look at some HID graphs and tell the people growing great medicine with them that they are junk! All 6 of my Red Suns are going strong. 3 are 4 weeks old and three are 2 weeks. None bought from Marine Depot the first 3 from AS

The last 3 RSs I purchased were all working fine after several weeks (the 2 in place still are). I took one out for a couple of weeks. When I put it back in - nada/DOA, or DOI (insertion).

In discussing this yesterday with Scott at AS, he thinks UV Lighting has a batch of bad adhesive, which is used to marry the end caps. Further: the exciter is in the end caps. You MIGHT minimize the problem when you insert/remove by grabbing the bulb as close to the ends as possible.

The Flora Grow looks sweet as a full cycle bulb. During veg/flower just pop a few and insert appropriate Actinic & Deep Red. My concern with the Plant Grow for flower is the intensity of the reds (~ 0.2- 0.3), but blending 1-2 RSs with the PGs should be even sweeter. So maybe, this was a blessing in disguise, as difficulties often are.

 

[PetFlora]

Right! I remembered it being the Coral Waves that were to be avoided during veg, not the Red Suns.

I don't think the RSs help as much during Grow, as other bulbs would. So it may not be a problem, but you could do better. My 2 cents

 

[Arabic]

The last 3 RSs I purchased were all working fine after several weeks (the 2 in place still are). I took one out for a couple of weeks. When I put it back in - nada/DOA, or DOI (insertion).

In discussing this yesterday with Scott at AS, he thinks UV Lighting has a batch of bad adhesive, which is used to marry the end caps. Further: the exciter is in the end caps. You MIGHT minimize the problem when you insert/remove by grabbing the bulb as close to the ends as possible.

The Flora Grow looks sweet as a full cycle bulb. During veg/flower just pop a few and insert appropriate Actinic & Deep Red. My concern with the Plant Grow for flower is the intensity of the reds (~ 0.2- 0.3), but blending 1-2 RSs with the PGs should be even sweeter. So maybe, this was a blessing in disguise, as difficulties often are.

When I meant junk I was not only referring to the technical problems, they aren't emitting the correct wavelength, they produce no usable light for chlorophyll A's red spectrum. chlorophyll B is barely made at 633nm, but the Red suns spectrum drops SO fast after 633nm and plants start using more red at 642nm-662nm. I guess if you are in favor of a broader spectrum I'd say go for them. But to me they seem ineffective, I'll add 1 to my 8 bulb flower setup whenever I make it though.

And for the intensity of the AquaMedic Plant Grow, it's got one green spike of bad light. the broadest band is red and it offers the most red at the 640-660 range, plus the blue spike is at ~435nm so i'd say that's PAR. that's good.


this thread should now be about the best 8-bulb flower setup until we find better bulbs

 

[Arabic]

Right! I remembered it being the Coral Waves that were to be avoided during veg, not the Red Suns.

I'd say the red suns are 100% useless for vegging.

 

[PetFlora]

I think it was that scumbag Donald Rumsfeld who said "We know what we know, and we don't know what we don't know"

That said, I am inclined to agree with Arabic- no benefit to RSs in veg.

 

[Arabic]

My future 8-bulb setup would be

No longer using the red sun, I don't care how RED the unusable light is. It has no other blue Par, not wasting a T5
Aquafloro x1 - good spectrum and best 640nm bulb imo, a lot of color from this bulb is PAR and very little is wasted in green
Plant Grow x4 - best all around flower bulb, thick red spectrum, lots around the 660nm area and the biggest spike is blue and happens to be PAR as well
Flora Sun x1 - I think this is identical to plant grow.. every picture of this shows it being identical, only the picture posted on here showed a spike at 700nm+ so I'd have to pick this for being unique.
ATI Super Blue x1 - amazing bulb imo... vegging wonder, beg to differ? )
Coral Wave x1 - only one with 420nm-435nm peak, plus people say it made their plants flower in 2 days because of the high IR output. Crazy.

hmm maybe I'd change out a plant grow for another aquafloro to better accomodate 640nm

I think this is the best combo until I can prove Flora Sun and Plant Grow are the same bulb..
Spectral graph of Plant Grow: http://www.aqua-medic.de/index.php?r=catalog/product&id=216
Posted graph of Flora Sun: View attachment 1963755 See all that 750nm activity? Can't find it anywhere else on the net.




On another note, why hasn't anyone mentioned Aquafloras yet?
The 640nm spectrum is targeted decently. I don't know if the axis on the left is ever relevant. If it is then I've overlooked a LOT of information but it seems diff companies use diff numbers.