LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

[Undercover Cop]

also look up the aqua medic ocean blues.. they have high peaks at 400-450nm. usually you'd need two bulbs to hit both of those (one at 430nm and one at 450nm). Damn.. so many possibilities. These aqua medics seem golden though, right?

http://www.aqua-medic.com/t5_bulbs.shtml

I feel like I've unearthed gold, is the ocean blue not the perfect Blue spectrum? as well as the right? 3 ocean blue 1 planta for veg, we don't need a broad spectrum. we need a LOT of a small spectrum.


waiting to see what others say before I buy these, with my luck it'll be one of those shitty specialty bulbs Pr0f was talking about way earlier

My thoughts are that blue colors are a dime a dozen, its hard to find a t5 bulb that isnt rich in blues. There are very few bulbs that dont have blue or green in em. Sure they have nice specific peaks, but through your assortment of 4-6-8 bulbs, almost every one will have blue so your blues will be covered pretty well by default. I think a good spread of red for both veg and even more for flowering. I do like the plantas, and think I prob will get 2 to add to flower to replace 2 460actinic's, then I should get 2 Fijis for veg.

Ill then have 8bulbs for veg, 2 fiji purps, 2 6500k's, 2 WavePoint ReefWave420, 2 WavePoint BlueWave460.
flowering Ill have two 4bulbs for side lighting, 2 UVL Shit Red Suns, 2 AquaMedic Plantas, 2 WavePoint RedWaves, 2 WavePoint CoralWaves. +400w HortHPS/cool tube.

 

[PetFlora]

Red Suns FUCKING BLOW!!! Who the fuck built these things! Did they manufacture them with their ass! I ordered 8 of them because of all the bad reports so I knew I'd need extras. Out of the 4 I had in 2 separate fixtures, the one in my Badboy has already failed completely, and ALL THREE in my New Wave have bad shadow spots on them. I twisted them around 180 degrees to try to use the other sides, and now the shadows have appeared there too. I'll probably lose all 3 within the week. So after 1 week with these bulbs, NOT A SINGLE ONE is working properly. WTF! I feel like we are all completely trapped with the Red Suns, as there doesn't seem to be any other bulb to replace it for flower. I know it is not my fixture that's causing the problem because I have two completely different ones.

Has anyone tried the Quantum 2900K flower bulbs? I know we don't have a spectrum for those either, and I'm sure Quantum won't release it, but I'm ready to try anything else at this point. It's going to get VERY expensive to keep having to pay shipping costs to return these piece of shit Red Suns. I haven't even contacted Marine Depot yet to see if they'll even take em back.

I know we don't have much choice, but I'd stay away from Red Suns. They're just a giant headache

I have 8 each Quantum Grow/Flower bulbs. One of the guys here early on had a friend there who sent the graphs to him, and he to me), but they are not in a format that I can send. If someone who is able to convert and upload here, wants to PM me with their email I will forward.

FYI: I am barley computer literate. The 2900s graph SUCKS. Coral Wave has much better bulbs for flower, though they ain't no Red Sun. Here's hoping those guys get that figured out before they go belly up.

 

[PetFlora]

Just emailed Kelly. They do not carry Aquamedic bulbs. Neither do they have a bulb that comes close to the UVL Red Life/Sun.

AM had a Fd up dealer directory. I called 2 supposed dealers on this list neither sells bulbs or is in that biz!. They are in the process of updating their site. Scott from AS says they have an account, but no inventory.

http://www.aqua-medic.com/dealersloc.php?mailing_state=fl

 

[PetFlora]

AquaticLife makes a Roseate 650 http://www.aquaticlife.com/products2/3411 Weak deep reds


Here is AquaMedic: Aqualine T5 Plant Grow lots of red http://www.aqua-medic.de/index.php?r=catalog/product&id=216. Once you are on the page on the right is a pic of the bulbs below is a tiny graph> click on it to enlarge. They are available in lots of places. Best contender so far?



Ouch $38 per http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=13827

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=13827Ah here it is @ $25.85 (48") + $4 ship fee per bulb http://www.aquacave.com/plant-grow-t5-lamps-brby-aquamedic-982.html

The more I compare the graphs, the less I think the Plant Grow is an alternative. I spoke with Scott @ AS. He thinks the problem is bad adhesive on the end caps. Says he will talk to UVL

 

[organicbynature]

Thanks for the bulb tip and the link, Arabic. I'll look into picking some of those Plantas up.

I agree with Undercover regarding the blue one. The graph isn't the easiest to read, but it pretty much looks like a super actinic to me.

Red is the hard-to-find color right now, particularly at 660 nm. The Planta looks pretty good for that, and looks to fit the curve well over all. I'll probably end up going base-bulb heavy with a mix of these and Flora Suns. Add in some Coral Waves (Super Actinic for veg) and it's an output I'm pretty comfortable with.

It would still be nice to get some all-red bulbs. I tried getting in touch with the only place I've found that carries the Philips bulb, but haven't heard back from them.

 

[Arabic]

I think I've found an easier to read graph of the "Ocean" blue one, taking a closer look at it we see it doesn't emit high enough on the 450 side to justify it's effectiveness at that peak..

http://www.aqua-medic.de/index.php?r=catalog/product&id=213

so.... comparing EVERY other bulb listed on this thread (up to page 110 i'm not finished reading)

It would seem that these are the best bulbs:

Aquafloro - gives a full spectrum and enough red for veg
Super ATI Blue Plus gives you the best 450 peak of all
UVL Super Actinic gives best 420 spectrum


with these three bulbs, you could do two Aquafloros and one super actinic and blue plus. Aquafloros are great for veg too because they emit the perfect nm of blue. I'lll probably only use one and look for another good blue bulb.

For flower I'd suggest 1 ati super blue, 1 aquafloro, and two "Plant Grow"/Plantas bulbs. Or ditch an aquafloro for another Plant Grow

I recently inquired about better spectral graphs on the Planta bulbs, they said they've discontinued and now make a model called Plant Grow.

Thank you for contacting us.
Please note that Aqua Medic no longer makes Planta lamps. They replace them with current model called Plant Grow.

So Plant Grow is the newest bulb, not Planta. Here's a link showing its graph http://www.aqua-medic.de/index.php?r=catalog/product&id=216

It has a thicker red band then most, I notice the very high blue spike but the thick red band is indeeed making it the number 1 contender right now.

 

[Psytranceorgy]

I posted links to the AquaMedic Plant Grows, Giesemann Aqua Floras, AquaticLife Roseates, ZooMed Flora Suns, etc... etc... a long time ago back on page 63 of this thread:

On the other hand, we as consumers are free to study the spectrum of similar, competing, and less expensive T5 HO bulbs produced by other companies, and make educated purchasing decisions:

AquaticLife Roseate http://aquaticlife.com/
Aqua Medic Plant Grow http://www.aqua-medic.com/
ATI Purple Plus http://www.atiaquaristik.com/en/
Coralife Colormax http://coralifeproducts.com/
Current/TrueLumen Freshwater Flora http://www.current-usa.com/
Giesemann Aquaflora http://www.giesemann.de/
JBL Solar Ultra Color http://www.jbl.de/en/
Wave Point Color Wave(same as Red Wave) http://www.wave-point.com/
ZooMed Flora Sun http://www.zoomed.com/

I would paste the spectrum graphs here for you, but some of them are embedded in Flash, and are not 'saveable'

The above all have a similar spectrum (some look better than others...for sure). God (and Thomas Pohl) only knows if they are similar to the KZ Fiji Purple's spectrum... but I suspect that they are... Having said that, Korallen Zucht is without a doubt highly reputed among all these, and the Fiji Purple bulb in particular is held in high regard among enthusiasts (thus the price tag). It is also, after all, the bulb that pr0f has actually flowered cannabis with! So again, I'm not dissing on that bulb so much as I am ticked off that we cannot get a spectrum to study so that we are able to make an educated purchasing decision, without going through all the work (time and money!) of comparing other bulbs to the Fiji Purple ourselves via direct experimentation...

Of course you still want to pick up your UVL Red Suns and use them! They are unique in their spectrum, and you definitely want some of it!

It is too bad that the UVL Red Suns have been having quality issues...

But yeah guys, I like where you are headed here... I suppose there is no getting around the fact that it is going to take some experimentation with these bulbs to come up with the best solution =D Keep up the good work!

 

[Arabic]

Can you tell me why you guys think the UVL Red Suns are good for bloom?

View attachment 1962925 Red spectrum we need must peak at 640nm and 660nm, and anything inbetween.
Here the "plant grow" bulb shows plenty distribution in that area, especially since the band is wide. That big 450nm spike might be more beneficial to flowering than we think. I don't like the green spike though, still better than the red sun.
Very little at 640nm and basically none at 660nm, the HIGH output at 610nm to 620nm is actually BARELY usable. Look at how much Cholorophyll is made at those spectrums.


Using my nooby paint skills I was able to show the high red spectrum the Red sun emits ontop of the plant absorption chart:



Showing that the red suns are indeed trash and you'd be better off with Aquafloros or Plant Grow bulbs

Aquafloro:

 

[organicbynature]

Still like the Plant Grow. Not a fan of the Aquaflora. There are definitely other base bulb options with better PUR than this one. Also, no 660 spike is a bummer. Stick with the Plant Grow between these two!

I also still like the Flora Sun as a base bulb (which is also a much cheaper bulb - can be found for $10 ea. with free shipping).

I'm not too worried about which is the best actinic and 450, they're mostly pretty comparable between brands, from what I can see. When comparing bulbs that are so close to each other I suspect the differences in graph quality make up most of the difference that you might see.

 

[organicbynature]

Can you tell me why you guys think the UVL Red Suns are good for bloom?

View attachment 1962925
View attachment 1962926
View attachment 1962927

Because UVL says the spike is at 633nm.

Though, as you are perhaps noticing, that is not what the graph shows.

But also because people seem to be having success with it when it doesn't outright fail.

 

[Arabic]

Well Chlorophyll A is barely made at 633nm. If you look closely you'd see that very very little of chlorophyll A is made with that redsun. BUT Chlorophyll B synthesis starts to pick up at 630nm. I think the red suns are DECENT at fulfilling only the red spectrum of Chlorophyll B but do absolutely nothing at all for Chlorophyll A

 

[Calrt]

Arabic, you can't just say Red Suns are junk because it is not at the peak nm. Look at some HID graphs and tell the people growing great medicine with them that they are junk! All 6 of my Red Suns are going strong. 3 are 4 weeks old and three are 2 weeks. None bought from Marine Depot the first 3 from AS

 

[Redoctober]

no those are by WavePoint, they're basically a tri-band red heavy full spectrum bulb, blue/green/red. UV Lighting Red Sun's are almost all Red, but they're booty, avoid em, I'd say go w the phillips or sylvania reds if you need a red bulb. IMHO, fuck UVL. I have the Red Waves, rather pinkish bulb, good for the price but nothing unique.

Which are the philips and sylvania red bulbs you are refering to? I'd be happy to switch to anything right now. I've seen several 2700-3000K Flower T5 bulbs by various companies, but none of them seem to show the spectra graphs for them.

IMO I think the Planta bulbs look quite good, but I think it is a "balanced" bulb, and not really a replacement for a red flowering bulb. I believe it was suggested somewhere early in the thread that you could veg, flower or both under all balanced bulbs, and forgo the red/blue alternation. I'm not sure what effect this would have on the plants. People have reported bud swelling under the Fiji's but I tend to think of it as more of a blue bulb than a dual spectrum, but we'll never know for sure.

I did find a red "heavy" bulb made by Hagen with a wonderful 660nm peak, but it seems to be available only as a T8 in a 48" 54W. If anyone can find a T5 version, they look fairly decent. I could potentially see it replacing Red Suns.

It's called the Aqua-Glo. And it seem to be the ONLY bulb they DON'T make in a 4 foot T5....figures right? http://hagen.com/usa/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=112&PROD_ID=01015870020101

 

[Undercover Cop]

View attachment 1962972 just remember that not all light waves that arent those perfect red/blue spikes are wasted by the plants. There is even research to show that Red and Blue are absorbed more efficiently in the presence of green, they lab tested panels that were different ratios of red to blue vs the same array's with a smaller percentage of green peppered in, like 12blue 4red to 1green, which outperformed the blue/red only panels... same nm LED's used for blue/red throughout... most all of these T5's are gonna work, just a matter of finding the most efficient blend for the BEST possible results

scrambling trying to find the SPD's for the sylvania and philips bulb... found the sylvania's for sale here, but no spd yet http://www.superiorlighting.com/20997_sylvania_Fp54_Red_Ho_p/20997-syl.htm

 

[jewgrow]

I don't understand these claims. Plants have evolved under the spectrum of the sun for millions of years. The best spectrum to grow earth plants is the sun. Mimicking that spectrum would be ideal no?

 

[hyroot]

I don't understand these claims. Plants have evolved under the spectrum of the sun for millions of years. The best spectrum to grow earth plants is the sun. Mimicking that spectrum would be ideal no?

That's exactly what we are doing here. Our t5's with mix of coral bulbs are about 80% closer to what plants pull from the sun than any hid. google PAR (photosynthetically active radiation)

this is the spectrum of what plants use.
View attachment 1963001

these are the best hps bulb i could find. notice how much wasted light there is that plants do not absorb.

 

[Redoctober]

scrambling trying to find the SPD's for the sylvania and philips bulb... found the sylvania's for sale here, but no spd yet

Maybe they don't publish the spectrum. They like to be annoying, like most of the bulb manufacturers. Thanks for looking though

Arabic's point may be valid if indeed the Red Sun's peak is at 610 and not 633. Again we have conflicting info between the company and the graph that is on their web page. Man, why the hell can't these companies get their acts together!

most all of these T5's are gonna work, just a matter of finding the most efficient blend for the BEST possible results

Totally! Just like, you CAN flower with a MH instead of an HPS if you want to. It's just that the spectrum of an HPS is more conducive to flower development, and the plants will produce better under them. Same with T5. Although maybe if you had actinics exclusively, flowering may not trigger, or be really sparse. But as long as you are providing any PAR to the plants, they will photosynthesize and survive. Ideally with flower you want more red PAR than blue PAR but just how much is still TBD. Should it be 60/40 or 65/35 or 70/30? We don't really know yet. The Pr0f has recommended 60/40 red/blue so that's what I'm aiming for.

 

[Redoctober]

That's exactly what we are doing here. Our t5's with mix of coral bulbs are about 80% closer to what plants pull from the sun than any hid. google PAR (photosynthetically active radiation) this is the spectrum of what plants use. View attachment 1963001View attachment 1963002 these are the best hps bulb i could find. notice how much wasted light there is that plants do not absorb. View attachment 1963006View attachment 1963007

You know what's crazy when you think about it (and I'm sure I'm not the only one to have this thought after this whole thread): How are HPS lights as efficient as they are, considering what we know about their PAR output? I mean, even with wasted light output pushing 85% +, we are still chasing their results with T5's that are probably 5x as efficient. That's insane! The only explanation I can come up with is that HPS lamps are a point source whereas T5 output is spread out over a 4 foot area. Thus the same amount of light that a 4 foot by 3 foot T5 fixture is throwing, in a smeared out fashion, gets squeezed into essentially a 1 inch area (filament). That's why their penetration is so good, and why they're too bright to even look at. I'm going to do some physics on this....

 

[hyroot]

You know what's crazy when you think about it (and I'm sure I'm not the only one to have this thought after this whole thread): How are HPS lights as efficient as they are, considering what we know about their PAR output? I mean, even with wasted light output pushing 85% +, we are still chasing their results with T5's that are probably 5x as efficient. That's insane! The only explanation I can come up with is that HPS lamps are a point source whereas T5 output is spread out over a 4 foot area. Thus the same amount of light that a 4 foot by 3 foot T5 fixture is throwing, in a smeared out fashion, gets squeezed into essentially a 1 inch area (filament). That's why their penetration is so good, and why they're too bright to even look at. I'm going to do some physics on this....

we are also doing that with half the wattage. if we matched watt for watt, I'm sure we would blow away any hps/mh

my last yield under t5. i recently did the math and per sq ft and per watt. i got the same yield to my 1000w, its to hard to judge per plant. we all know each plant grows differently even if its the same strain. by that i mean how it branches out and rate of growth and how many bud sites.. not so much different buds on same strain.

right now under both lights the buds are the same size and the t5 is less than half the wattage and the quality of the buds far surpasses the 1000w buds

 

[Redoctober]

we are also doing that with half the wattage. if we matched watt for watt, I'm sure we would blow away any hps/mh my last yield under t5. i recently did the math and per sq ft and per watt. i got the same yield to my 1000w, its to hard to judge per plant. we all know each plant grows differently even if its the same strain. by that i mean how it branches out and rate of growth and how many bud sites.. not so much different buds on same strain. right now under both lights the buds are the same size and the t5 is less than half the wattage and the quality of the buds far surpasses the 1000w buds

Now that's what I like to hear! So how come you originally thought that your yield was disappointing? Doesn't sound disappointing at all, in fact it sounds pretty appointing lol!

Do you think you'll do a side by side with equivalent wattage of HPS and T5?

I've noticed that the buds under my T5 are slightly smaller than my HPS of equivalent wattage. I am doing a very non scientific, trial of GLH LED 180W, 400W HPS, and 432W T5. It's not a trial really, I just wanted to give the plants as much light as I could so I threw up 3 different fixtures literally side by side. Funnily enough I think it's the LED that's got the largest buds which I didn't expect, but the T5 has the best quality. Now also bear in mind that we are not using the same bulbs either and my bulb mix may be less than ideal for flower.

I am testing the ZooMed Flora Suns as a base bulb just because their spectrum is pretty good and they are really easy to get (PetCo). I have 3 UVL Red Suns and 2 UVL Super Actinics in there as well. I was going to put the Fiji's in but I ordered the 80W VHO version because BulkReef was out of the 54W bulbs thinking it was no big deal to put a VHO bulb in a HO fixture. You may in fact be able to do this, but it turns out that the VHO was 60" long, so I couldn't even use it. Sunuva!