Mind, Body and Spirit

[skunkushybrid]

in fact, the apparent pointlessness of life makes me rejoice!

Me too! I remember arriving at a similar conclusion with my gf once. She actually said, well we might as well just kill ourselves then. Although I was arguing about material things at the time, it lead me to the conclusion that everything is meaningless. We are born and we die, what difference the things that happen in between?

About choice, we choose things all the time. We may have limited choices, yet they are there all the same. Why was the word thought of, how did the very word come about? There must have been a reason. I love words, the english language is beautiful in it's variation. We can articulate anything we like by choosing the right words. Most of us think before we speak, choose the right words before we say them... where it gets fun is when you deliberately make the wrong choice.

 

[preoQpydDlusion]

are you suggesting that i am not being clear with my opinions?

what i am saying is while we seem to have the ability to choose, the nature of reality shows us that whatever will happen is a direct result of what already has. u may experience a feeling of control, but this feeling is misleading.

 

[skunkushybrid]

there are still choices. choices that will lead to different eventualities. If there was no such thing as choice that says that our lives are mapped out for us, no matter which choice we make we were going to make that choice anyway. This is impossible to determine because we ARE presented with choice, choices that will often give us pause for thought. The future is not known, the past barely remembered. Often the choices we make will govern our future choices. Govern, but not determine.

Sorry preo', I've read through my last post a couple of times and I can't understand your first question.

 

[7xstall]

Art started by COPYING what we see. The apprentice didn't create something original, he made a mistake while trying to copy something he had already seen.

If you ask any artist what they strive for, they will tell you originality, something that will set them apart from other artists. I know this myself, I haven't written for a number of years (due to having kids) and I really tried to make everything I wrote an original piece, or story. Do you know how difficult this is? Even when you think you are writing something original you could read something a few weeks later that is quite similar to your own work. Art is a process, of course it is, but it also has an end result. Art is mimicry, not creationism. Merely a parody of what we have already seen or known.

if you say Art started only by copying what we see then you discredit the HUGE portion of Art comprised of what we WANT to see... if we want to see anything at all other than what we do see this is our Creation even if we do not execute. we are all Artists and we are all creating...which is why choice is not an illusion.

 

[7xstall]

preo- if you think you are nothing but the sum of all the past you should have no bearing on the future, correct?? it seems that everything would constantly terminate, but we keep going, so how are we choiceless?

 

[skunkushybrid]

if you say Art started only by copying what we see then you discredit the HUGE portion of Art comprised of what we WANT to see...

sorry 7x, any chance of rephrasing the paragraph?

if we want to see anything at all other than what we do see this is our Creation even if we do not execute. we are all Artists and we are all creating...which is why choice is not an illusion.

Yet we can only make choices on what we have seen or known. If we make choices without this basis it then becomes a gamble. I agree though, choice is certainly not an illusion. How can we see something other than what there is to see?

 

[7xstall]

attempt at rewording: if Art is a task of representing what is, of "documenting", how do you describe the documentation of what-is-not (fantasy, imaginings, etc.) as anything other than creation?


Yet we can only make choices on what we have seen or known. If we make choices without this basis it then becomes a gamble.

we make choices on unknowns every day, every moment. sounds to me like you are claiming omnipotence SKH...do you know that a meteor will not strike you dead today, a fire will not trap you in your home? life is a gamble.


I agree though, choice is certainly not an illusion. How can we see something other than what there is to see?

even if we see something of our invention we chose to see it.

 

[preoQpydDlusion]

there are still choices. choices that will lead to different eventualities.

i agree completely. when u look at life on a moment to moment basis this is obvious. but looking at the slightly broader picture tho, these choices we make are meaningless.

If there was no such thing as choice that says that our lives are mapped out for us, no matter which choice we make we were going to make that choice anyway.

exactly. u have been strong enough to accept the pointlessness of reality, seeing the pointlessness of your own choices is just another natural step in the same line of thinking.

This is impossible to determine because we ARE presented with choice, choices that will often give us pause for thought. The future is not known, the past barely remembered. Often the choices we make will govern our future choices. Govern, but not determine.

yes, governed completely

Sorry preo', I've read through my last post a couple of times and I can't understand your first question.

\/

We can articulate anything we like by choosing the right words. Most of us think before we speak, choose the right words before we say them... where it gets fun is when you deliberately make the wrong choice.

(i though u were hinting that i was playing around with words)

preo- if you think you are nothing but the sum of all the past you should have no bearing on the future, correct?? it seems that everything would constantly terminate, but we keep going, so how are we choiceless?

I, as a being, am more than that. but my actions are not my own. i am inspired, limited, and even defined by the world around me. we all are. everything does constantly terminate in a way. as time goes on we change, the past is the present terminated. you say i should have no bearing on the future. i do not necessarily care about the future. im completely comfortable with accepting everything that i will experience in the future. but i make a point to live in the present. i live a good/happy life now and have faith that this will effect my life tomorrow in a positive way.


on the largest scale, we are all one. the only thing that truly separates us is the labeling we use to give life meaning. sure, you make choices day to day, but they arent your personal accomplishments or follies. these choices are the products of the universe as a whole coming together thru your perspective.

 

[skunkushybrid]

Could you give me an example of artistic creation? Everything that has come to mind, for me, so far can be explained as being a copy of what we see with a slight change. We can stretch the change further to give something the appearance of being original, this is the skill of the artist.

I'm not claiming omnipotence, I know I'm not going to be forever.

How can life be a gamble if we are going to die anyway? Surely, if the outcome is the same then we don't have anything to lose. This pretty much sums up my outlook on life, every day is a good day.

 

[preoQpydDlusion]

i agree with SKH. artistic creation relies on what has already been. the artists may alter, rearrange, or rename something, they can combine things, but they dont make something new.

im an artist myself. i wont say that art doesnt involve talent, i like to think i am a talented person for what i do, but i wont think for a second that i, or anybody else, actually create anything.

 

[Garden Knowm]

Art started by COPYING what we see. The apprentice didn't create something original, he made a mistake while trying to copy something he had already seen.

If you ask any artist what they strive for, they will tell you originality, something that will set them apart from other artists. I know this myself, I haven't written for a number of years (due to having kids) and I really tried to make everything I wrote an original piece, or story. Do you know how difficult this is? Even when you think you are writing something original you could read something a few weeks later that is quite similar to your own work. Art is a process, of course it is, but it also has an end result. Art is mimicry, not creationism. Merely a parody of what we have already seen or known.

\\

very nice.. my thoughts took me down this path also..

body movement is the same way.. to actually make a FRESH, NEW movement.. something that is NOT from "memory"

it is moving while not moving...

Burroughs said... something like.. there is NO art.. there are just GREAT PLAGERISIZERS.... whomever can copy/mimic nature the best.. is the greatest artist...

iloveyou

 

[Garden Knowm]

when ONE knows something... it comes with the illusion of control and choice.. to SEE there is NO choice.. one must accept that ONE does not KNOW..

 

[skunkushybrid]

\\Burroughs said... something like.. there is NO art.. there are just GREAT PLAGERISIZERS.... whomever can copy/mimic nature the best.. is the greatest artist...

iloveyou

wow, thanks knowm.

 

[frthnkr85]

of course we have plenty of choice look throughout history and you can see this... if everything was governed by some pre determined set of events then the person who believes this is the worst type of religious fanatic... i've argued with people who call themselves christians and say that god has plans for us and that we live according to his will... this is craziness in the 1st degree... we are human we are a uniqe entity among a world full of action and reaction... i know that if i whack a tree with an axe long enough it will fall down the tree has no choice in the matter... however if i swing an axe at an animal it is going to engage in fight or flight... yet if i swing this same axe at a human who knows what will happen... maybe they don't want to live anymore and just wait for the axe or maybe they want life more then me and they run or take the axe and force me to make a choice... humans are the only ones that can make choices like this... yet one more reason why we are unique... our concious knowledge that we do indeed have a choice... we don't live by a set and narrow set of rules like animals and plants... 99 percent of the time you know what an animal or plant will do but humans???

 

[frthnkr85]

and art is yet another unique trait that humans have... but i won't argue this point... i will just say that math language and art are ways for people to explain the things around them to themselves and to others... it is because we have these three things that we are the rulers of this planet and i believe we were given these things for a reason... where would we be without art language and math... what if the great minds in history decided they didn't want to take the knowledge they had aquired and pass it on??? and if these things are just copies of what was already known where did it all start??? maybe we were created from the image that already understands all things and we are just working to move towards this also... is that not truly perfection??? i envision a world where one day people will not disagee fight and argue over religion and culture but will move towards a world where knowledge and good will are the rulers of this place we call earth otherwise destruction and pain are all our future hold...

 

[Garden Knowm]

a world full of action and reaction...

you have pegged it exactly..

there is only 1 thing more difficult then actually SEEing an action..

it is MAKING an ACTION...

The world is predominatley a place of re-action.. only a few that awaken.. a very very few... (ones who can watch their every breath)... will ACT...take action...

and even those that awaken can not take action.. without tremdous and complete focus.. requiring endless and exhaustive PRACTICE...

PRACTICE... this is a GREAT word to focuson and really inquire about its meaning.....

iloveyou

 

[Sanifsan]

and art is yet another unique trait that humans have... but i won't argue this point... i will just say that math language and art are ways for people to explain the things around them to themselves and to others... it is because we have these three things that we are the rulers of this planet and i believe we were given these things for a reason... where would we be without art language and math... what if the great minds in history decided they didn't want to take the knowledge they had aquired and pass it on??? and if these things are just copies of what was already known where did it all start??? maybe we were created from the image that already understands all things and we are just working to move towards this also... is that not truly perfection??? i envision a world where one day people will not disagee fight and argue over religion and culture but will move towards a world where knowledge and good will are the rulers of this place we call earth otherwise destruction and pain are all our future hold...

In my opinion here are the stages of growth toward god......in order of begining to the ultimate "knowledge of him..."


The Valley of Search

The valley of search is described as the first step that a seeker must take in his path. The seeker must cleanse his heart, and not follow the paths of his forefathers. It is explained that ardour, and patience are required to traverse this valley.

The Valley of Love

The next valley is the Valley of Love and in this valley the seeker is compared to a moth who has found a flame. The heart of the seeker is touched, and the seeker has fallen in love with God.

The Valley of Knowledge

The knowledge referred to in this valley is the knowledge of God, and not one based on learning; it is explained that pride in one's knowledge and accomplishments often disallows one to reach true understanding, which is the knowledge of God. It is explained that the seeker, when in this valley, begins to understand the mysteries contained within God's revelation, and finds wisdom in all things including when faced with pain and hardship, which he understands to be God's mercy and blessing. This valley is called the last limited valley.

The Valley of Unity

The next stage is the valley of unity, and it is explained that the seeker now sees creation not by its limitations, but sees the attributes of God in all created things. The seeker, it is written, is detached from earthly things, is not concerned with his own self and has no ego; instead he praises God for all of creation.

The Valley of Contentment

The next valley for the seeker is the valley of contentment, where it is explained, that the seeker becomes independent from all things, and even though he may look poor or is subjected to suffering, he will be endowed with wealth and power from the spiritual worlds and will inwardly be happy. Happiness is explained to be the attribute of the true believer, and it cannot be achieved by obtaining material things, since material things are transitory.

The Valley of Wonderment

In the valley of wonderment the seeker, it is written, is struck dumb by the beauty of God; the seeker becomes conscious of the vastness and enormity of creation, and discovers the inner mysteries of God's revelation. Being led from one mystery of creation to the next, it is explained that the seeker continues to be astonished by the works of God.

The Valley of True Poverty and Absolute Nothingness

The final valley is the valley of true poverty and absolute nothingness and it is the furthermost state that the mystic can reach. The seeker, it is explained is poor of all material things, and is rich in spiritual attributes. It is explained that it is the state of annihilation of self in God, but not an existential union: the essences of God's self and the mystic's self remain distinct, in contrast to what appears to be a complete union in other traditions.



This was just the summary. more research needs to be done for a more comprehensive knowledge of this idea.....

The Seven Valleys of Baha'u'llah

 

[frthnkr85]

and to awaken is to see everything around you... not only what you would like to see but what you don't want to see and the things few people are able to accept... the world turns and we turn with it those who would go against what is and forge their own path are the ones who will truly be great!!!

 

[skunkushybrid]

Why can't people see that we are merely animals? We're not gods, at least not yet. Do we not shit and fuck like all other animals? If we are this god's chosen ones, what are angels?

People honestly think that we are special. We could be wiped from this earth by nature and people still believe in gods.

frth, to awaken is to open your eyes after sleep. To start seeing things that aren't there is a step closer to insanity.

I say, find yourself. Awaken to what you really are. See the bullshit.

 

[frthnkr85]

oh i see it skunk and because i see the bad i'm able to accept the good... why can't you see through the haze that is humanity and see that there is truly a next level... life sucks and then you die right skunk...lol