Mind, Body and Spirit

[skunkushybrid]

The fear is not obvious. If I think about it now, then I'd answer that I don't fear death. Just as I may feel that while I'm stoned I could easily face a day without being so. We trick ourselves into believing things because it makes life easier to cope with... sorry, gotta deal with a screaming baby!

 

[matias2911]

Let me start by saying I love this thread, I came late though so i havent got the time to get to read every post (all of which i think are interesting in their own way.)
Some random thoughts that emerge by reading some of the things on here:

-I f evolution is perceived as being '' any means of yeilding something new, or something different from what was prior.'' would it not be the same as creationism? Bang! and man was created, thus producing something new from what was prior(even if this was the unexplainable something that we refer to as nothingness or ''the creator'')... Interesting isn't it? If so, is creationism so different from evolution?
I would say they are similar, separated by different assumptions and timeframes, a creationist does not aknowledge the world as a constant change so is forced to admit that something at some point triggered LIFE, something did change at some point nevertheless . an evolutionist on the other hand sets his position upon life on earth, everything is an interactive mass that changes constantly from the interaction of elements to create new ones.
So it all depends on what perspective is taken on setting time. If one considers that everything changes constantly, this doesn't deny the possibility that there was a starting point to this change ( alias ''the big bang''). If another believes that everything was created from zit to life, he/or she cannot deny the possibility that one day this will happen again changing from life to zit, flit or mit, thus evolving. Creationism and evolutionism do not contradict themselves, they just point out what frame of time you are most interested in..

I'm not a numeral scientist, proof to me can come from most sources other than concrete facts.. I think by merely participating to this ''conversation'' we are all contributing to the ''evolution'' of thought, just as years before, the possibility of thinking was, in fact, ''created''.

 

[7xstall]

-I f evolution is perceived as being '' any means of yeilding something new, or something different from what was prior.'' would it not be the same as creationism? Bang! and man was created, thus producing something new from what was prior(even if this was the unexplainable something that we refer to as nothingness or ''the creator'')... Interesting isn't it? If so, is creationism so different from evolution?

actually, that's what i defined "creation" as for preoq when he asked. evolution would be a spontaneous genetic change which results in a beneficial new trait.

i started out making my case that we use the term "evolution" in a very lax manor, we are poor stewards of the actual connotations of this term when we describe learning or progressive advancement as on par with evolution. true evolution is astounding, it is powerful, as much as the concept of God if you think about it. the only parallels to evolution that i see are in Art, and these similarities are in pure abstraction with no literal application, at least not one which is quantifiable.


your observation that change itself acknowledges a "prior" state is at the crux of what i see as insurmountable logic against the theory of evolution, very nice way of putting it!!

 

[7xstall]

Whoa! I disappear for a day and it's all kicking off without me. I don't really like being termed an atheist, I'm a realist. I believe what is real (or my perception thereof).

Reality is something we all need to face, whether we want to or not. Reality is ugly, we piss we shit, we fuck and we fight (no particular order). The ugliest thing of all, the one that really reminds us we are merely animals, is the fact that one day we will die.

if you are a "realist", whatever that means, then how do you know that when you die that's it? according to quantum you don't know that your car is outside your house unless you are looking at it...the sidewalk for that matter, the other side of your wall could be another planet. we live according to assumptions, we have grown to expect certain things. why would we expect our imaginations (souls?) to die when they have no earthly bounds while we live?

 

[7xstall]

if u believe that there is a beginning (and im assuming end also) u are segmenting reality. its just one really big segment, but ur still relying on a superficial label to attempt to understand nature.

if u remove the idea of an omnipotent creator, u let go of the need to segment reality even further. by saying that God made us, ur saying that we live in a smaller reality naturally disconnected from "god's" VIP room.

the reality of segments is one reality, the reality of non-segments is another. God is all. what i believe is that God created the universe from nothing. time and matter are a by-product of His invention. ergo, to rely upon our experience of these things to formulate the basis of our thought regarding everything that is not of time and matter is inherently flawed.

i would ask, if we "remove" God, how do we alleviate the need for allocating both the existence and non-existence (segments) of the universe? all of science and religion assume something came from nothing at some point.

ok, regarding the VIP concept, i agree that yes, we are imprisoned by our capability to perceive verses the capability to experience. BUT, some of us work on transcending these bounds through meditation and other forms of communion with God.

 

[skunkushybrid]

if you are a "realist", whatever that means, then how do you know that when you die that's it? according to quantum you don't know that your car is outside your house unless you are looking at it...the sidewalk for that matter, the other side of your wall could be another planet. we live according to assumptions, we have grown to expect certain things. why would we expect our imaginations (souls?) to die when they have no earthly bounds while we live?

We also assume that a tree makes a sound when it falls in the woods, and nobody is around to hear it. Often we don't need actual evidence to KNOW something. It's called common sense. This is how I know that some superman did not create us only for us to die anyway then join him after. Where's the sense? The point? This superman would have to be exactly like us, think the same, feel the same to create such bullshit. Thou shalt, thou shalt not... bollocks. We can and do know things, we just refuse to admit them to ourselves.

The imagination does have an earthly bond. In fact it couldn't be any further earthed. Where is our imagination? Here, on this earth. Our imagination cannot escapoe the boundaries of our bodies, we may be able to imagine that it can, but in REALITY it doesn't. One person can believe a certain reality, but this is not reality, it is A reality. Reality is solid, unmoving. It cannot be questioned, because it is real. Belief and reality are different, yet often the same when you think of individuals. Yet what one individual, or group of individuals believe as reality does not make it reality: again, this is A reality.

 

[7xstall]

"The imagination does have an earthly bond. In fact it couldn't be any further earthed. Where is our imagination? Here, on this earth. Our imagination cannot escapoe the boundaries of our bodies, we may be able to imagine that it can, but in REALITY it doesn't."


so, you argue that our imagination is a mirror of our surroundings rather than a window into things of novelty? will you state that creation does not occur in the heart and mind of the Artist of any medium?


"One person can believe a certain reality, but this is not reality, it is A reality. Reality is solid, unmoving. It cannot be questioned, because it is real. Belief and reality are different"

I agree, reality is not fully experienced by anyone at any given time, this is the doman of God..like it or not, that's reality. if there is nothing experiencing all aspects of reality, even those we do not experience, how do we know that any aspects exist? wouldn't you concede that there must be some fabric of "constance" keeping occurance in existence?

 

[skunkushybrid]

so, you argue that our imagination is a mirror of our surroundings rather than a window into things of novelty? will you state that creation does not occur in the heart and mind of the Artist of any medium?

Art started quite simply. Drawings on the walls depicting things we have seen. Now let's imagine an artist, back when our imaginations were so small we were limited to these depictions. Now imagine this artists apprentice, the apprentice tries to copy his master in depicting a horse. He draws the horse but it looks more like a cross between a horse and a cow. The apprentice has drawn something original, something that doesn't exist. Has he created something new?

We use our surroundings and mix things up to create new ideas. Like a movie, invariably the plots are the same, but if you change one thing this does not make it original, merely a copy with a slight change

I agree, reality is not fully experienced by anyone at any given time, this is the doman of God..like it or not, that's reality. if there is nothing experiencing all aspects of reality, even those we do not experience, how do we know that any aspects exist? wouldn't you concede that there must be some fabric of "constance" keeping occurance in existence?

a confusing question, maybe one that is going to take a little thought before I answer. Why choose the word fabric? This suggests something tangible. Also we could not have occurences without existence. I would have to say that existence is the constance. existence is fairly tangible, real. So I'd have to disagree. The fabric that is keeping occurence is existence, there is no third party.

 

[frthnkr85]

you guys don't understand me yet... read my posts skunk and preo i'm not going to post on the other thread because it is useless i'll say what i have to say here... you guys call me a christian i am not... church is a gathering of people who try to convince each other that their ideas are correct... my church is the world my congregation everyone... everyone can teach you something theres always something to learn... you guys have closed minds you think you know things and you know nothing... i thought i knew nothing but people make me feel better about myself everyday... those who believe that they can argue against god or science are ignorant... the universe is so large that the possibilities are endless... therefore all things conceviably are possible... humans are the ones who convince themselves that they know what is and that is truly bs... they know nothing you guys know nothing i know nothing until you can admit that???

 

[preoQpydDlusion]

what are u babbling about? ur right, nobody knows anything. knowledge is a myth. anything anybody believes to be true is subject to their perspective, so any 'truth' that does not pertain to the universe as a whole is flawed.

only a collective consciousness of all things could have true knowledge. this is the definition of God for many people. this idea makes sense to me. what i think doesnt make sense is a being that made the decision to create reality and meddles in our daily lives just to ultimately judge us after we die.

i would like to narrow our topic a little. everythings starting to get hectic again. i suggest the nature of choice: does it exist? my view of reality is strongly based on my belief that nobody has choice, and i am beginning to think that i may be the only person in this discussion that thinks this way.

u guys game?

 

[skunkushybrid]

i would like to narrow our topic a little. everythings starting to get hectic again. i suggest the nature of choice: does it exist? my view of reality is strongly based on my belief that nobody has choice, and i am beginning to think that i may be the only person in this discussion that thinks this way.

u guys game?

Choice in what? We make choices everyday. We choose to get up at a certain time. We may be lucky enough to be able to choose what we eat. The trouble with the english language is that it's words often have many definitions, in what way are you referring to choice?

 

[preoQpydDlusion]

i am referring to it exactly as u think i am. i am saying u dont have any control over the decisions u make. choice is an illusion

i need to sleep, but i hope to continue this tomorrow

 

[skunkushybrid]

i am referring to it exactly as u think i am. i am saying u dont have any control over the decisions u make. choice is an illusion

i need to sleep, but i hope to continue this tomorrow

no way, we are given certain choices. I'm a good example, i came from a fairly deprived background and it would be easy to assume that I had little choice in becoming a criminal. In fact, I even remember arriving at the decision. I craved excitement and experience, I also knew that I would suffer, would have to endure. I made the choice.

 

[7xstall]

Art started quite simply. Drawings on the walls depicting things we have seen. Now let's imagine an artist, back when our imaginations were so small we were limited to these depictions. Now imagine this artists apprentice, the apprentice tries to copy his master in depicting a horse. He draws the horse but it looks more like a cross between a horse and a cow. The apprentice has drawn something original, something that doesn't exist. Has he created something new?

you seem to consider Art to be an end result where i consider it a process. when those early people wanted to put something on the cave wall to represent their world they were part of the process. the process is innately human, we all want to create something. i would say that the apprentice did create something new, just as your baby will one day create something new when the crayons and paper are set before him/her. we thrive on it.

We use our surroundings and mix things up to create new ideas. Like a movie, invariably the plots are the same, but if you change one thing this does not make it original, merely a copy with a slight change


so true creativity does not exist then, we are just recycling concepts all the time, nothing is new...how ecclesiastical of you. what about the means of the recycling, the origin of it, the life which makes up the Artist before the moment of creating must come to bear on the results, if not we would be like the animals, repetitious and bland. why do you think we constantly seek to create? why did the apprentice want to learn how to "record" his world and put his spin on it?

[/color]

a confusing question, maybe one that is going to take a little thought before I answer. Why choose the word fabric? This suggests something tangible. Also we could not have occurences without existence. I would have to say that existence is the constance. existence is fairly tangible, real. So I'd have to disagree. The fabric that is keeping occurence is existence, there is no third party.

it can be intangible fabric, i'm really talking about commonality. the relationship between occurence and existence aside, what i am getting at is that something transmits reality in a constant fashion; "reality" doesn't take any time to occur and existence doesn't take any space to confirm. quantum states, in effect, that we only perceive thin slices of reality. what ties it all together? what is it that makes the reality of you existing the same reality in any other existence? what makes such order when there is such potential for chaos? the 4 Einsteinian dimensions are only some of the dimensions required to allow for existence so if we credit a non-God-invoked spontaneous event with yielding time and space itself we certainly hit the jackpot didn't we, again. the same crazy improbability that applies to life having evolved applies on a much much much larger scale to the very medium of our experiences, the physical world.

 

[7xstall]

u dont have any control over the decisions u make. choice is an illusion


then who decides for us?

if choice is an illusion isn't it still an effective one, perpetually bestowing us with rewards and failure?

 

[frthnkr85]

i put my thoughts into a nice little bundle if anyone is interested hopefully at least preo skunk 7x and sansi then they are at this thread...

https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/6411-universe.html

WARNING NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART!!!

 

[preoQpydDlusion]

u dont have any control over the decisions u make. choice is an illusion

then who decides for us?

if choice is an illusion isn't it still an effective one, perpetually bestowing us with rewards and failure?

no one decides for us. choice doesnt exist.

ahhh, okay. the choices we make are based on who we are as a person. its safe to say that u had no choice of where, when, or how u were born. its safe to say u did not choose your parents or the situation u were born into. your genetics and your environment, sinse day one, have molded who you are today. you are simply a product of you surroundings, and so is any decision u make.

so u dont really have control over anything. right now i choose to type this post, but really, this is the only thing i really could do. i could change my mind and stop typing............ but this would still be a natural product of the past.

this supports my belief that the universe never had a beginning and will never truly end. reality is self-perpetuating.

but i agree, the illusion is effective, so dont go thinking u should off urself because theres no point in it all. in fact, the apparent pointlessness of life makes me rejoice!

 

[Garden Knowm]

their can not be evolution with out creationism... It is WILL.. conscious will.. that makes US evolve... One must work on ONEself in order to evolve...

iloveyou

although.. as I look around me.. and see so many sad people... suffering people, people trapped in THOUGHT.... Many MAY be forced to evolve.. kicking and screaming the ENTIRE way.. LOL..

iloveyou

 

[Garden Knowm]

choice is an illusion

Are you awake?... i am impressed.. and I applaud your insight... MAD love for you...


Most people think they are making choices.. but 99.9999% are only reacting.. there is an "ILLUSION"....

you can see the illusion for ONESELF.... it is very easy.. just sit still and don't react to anything..do this a few times.. try it for 10 minutes.. 3 times a day... for 7 days.... the results are TERRIFYING.. aahahahahahahahha..

iloveyou...

most people will fight even the notion of sitting and WATCHNING THERE MIND (meditation)...... that is the classic reaction... YOU CAN NOT CHOOSE!!!! choice is a LIE.... this is true...

The first thing you will notice... YOU are NOT your thoughts... thoughts simple ARE.. IT is impossible to "THINK"... thinking just happens... LOL ... another truth that is diffficult for many to accept...

unless... ONE awakes... and one can only awake... by NOT REACTING to anything!!!! NOTHING... perfect stillness...

often this requires great suffering (as it did in my case) I have yet to meet anyone who did not AWAKEN without deep suffering and... a deep surrender... and finally a deep acceptance and YES for ALL..

iloveyou....

for those that awaken there is a gift that far exceeds any "thinking".. a gift that can not be talked about and can not be THOUGHT about.. This gift can only be POINTED at.... but when pointed at, most people only see the finger and not what is actually being pointed AT..

iloveyou

 

[skunkushybrid]

Art started by COPYING what we see. The apprentice didn't create something original, he made a mistake while trying to copy something he had already seen.

If you ask any artist what they strive for, they will tell you originality, something that will set them apart from other artists. I know this myself, I haven't written for a number of years (due to having kids) and I really tried to make everything I wrote an original piece, or story. Do you know how difficult this is? Even when you think you are writing something original you could read something a few weeks later that is quite similar to your own work. Art is a process, of course it is, but it also has an end result. Art is mimicry, not creationism. Merely a parody of what we have already seen or known.