Mark Blyth, the economist who's making sense

[Padawanbater2]

Sanders distancing himself from "identity politics".

How is Sanders "distancing himself from identity politics"?

What part of "people are tired of political correctness" don't you understand?

People are tired of politicians using political correctness to advance their own agenda and to ignore real issues like wealth and income inequality

He never connected or spent much time courting the African American and Hispanic American voters and so this is not a change in stance. He's more vocal about it.

African Americans, Hispanics, and women all have a more favorable view of Sanders than white men;

"Among registered voters, fifty-eight percent of women view Sanders favorably, as do 55 percent of men. He is most popular among people aged 18 to 34, who give him a 62 percent approval rating. Sanders also has majority support among those over the age of 50.

While Sanders struggled during his Democratic primary challenge against Clinton in states with large African-American voting populations, he is viewed favorably by 73 percent of black registered voters.

That’s better than Hispanics, at 68 percent favorable, Asian-Americans, at 62 percent favorable, and whites, at 52 percent favorable."

And he has a consistently high rating from the NAACP

It's the perfect strategy to allow ambiguous systematic racism to continue.

The perfect strategy to "allow ambiguous systematic racism to continue" is to promote programs and policies that would disproportionately benefit the poor, minorities, and women?

Also Sanders voters who broke to Trump didn't think white people have advantages over black people. Maybe not kkk types but blind to the effects of racism in this country. Almost the definition of systematic racism.
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds

25% of Hillary Clinton voters voted for John McCain in 2008, compared to 11% of Sanders voters (as well as 9% of Democrats) who voted for Trump. That's twice as many Clinton supporters who are "blind to the effects of racism in this country"

It's perfectly understandable that Bernie is breaking to the right on social issues like the ones that Black Lives Matter have been making white people uncomfortable over.

How is Sanders "breaking to the right on social issues"? Can you cite a few examples? You keep making these statements without any evidence to support them. The evidence already provided shows that minorities and women support Sanders more than white men, and he's got one of the highest ratings in congress from African Americans

 

[ttystikk]

They quite likely did feel invisible to Bernie...because Bernie tends to avoid pandering to minorities...or to anyone for that matter. Minorties like to be coddled and told theyre special and Bernie just wont. He is old school.

Instead, Bernie goes to the heart of the matter...he tends to draw the line between the haves and the have nots, which include almost all the minorities and the vast majority of white people.

I agree with his position but I also see its limitations.

I think he can bridge that gap by talking about how many people of color are economically disadvantaged and how his efforts to specifically and effectively redress that economic imbalance imbalance will therefore be targeting them for the kind of help they can feel right in the pocketbook.

Having spoken to many people of color over the years, I've found that most of them don't want to be pandered to, they just want their problems recognized and addressed.

 

[Gquebed]

you making old man Sanders sound like a racist.

i'm not one, but i'm pretty sure minorities want to be thought of and treated as equals.

Hardly... Bernie treats everybody the same. Thats why people like him. Is it not racist to pander, patronise and condescend to specific colours of people? Are minorities not fighting to be treated equally?

Bernie is straight shooter no matter who he talks too. And thats the point...

Those looking for "special" treatment... thats racist.

 

[Gquebed]

I agree with his position but I also see its limitations.

I think he can bridge that gap by talking about how many people of color are economically disadvantaged and how his efforts to specifically and effectively redress that economic imbalance imbalance will therefore be targeting them for the kind of help they can feel right in the pocketbook.

Having spoken to many people of color over the years, I've found that most of them don't want to be pandered to, they just want their problems recognized and addressed.

Exactly.

Trouble is... there are a lot of groups (in canada) within minorities that have become used to being pandered too and once that pandering stops they call it racism.

I cant imagine that itd be much different elsewhere...

 

[Fogdog]

They quite likely did feel invisible to Bernie...because Bernie tends to avoid pandering to minorities...or to anyone for that matter. Minorties like to be coddled and told theyre special and Bernie just wont. He is old school.

Instead, Bernie goes to the heart of the matter...he tends to draw the line between the haves and the have nots, which include almost all the minorities and the vast majority of white people.

Yes, your color blind idea of racism in the US says everything we need to know about how "Our Revolution" reformers think of this issue.

"Minorities like to be coddled"

@ttystikk and @Padawanbater2 , you have a new compadre..

Actually that's unfair of me to say. G is one of the moderate Republican types that Bernie says he would support in the hopes of drawing into the "Our Revolution" reform.

Coddled.

 

[Fogdog]

I agree with his position but I also see its limitations.

I think he can bridge that gap by talking about how many people of color are economically disadvantaged and how his efforts to specifically and effectively redress that economic imbalance imbalance will therefore be targeting them for the kind of help they can feel right in the pocketbook.

Having spoken to many people of color over the years, I've found that most of them don't want to be pandered to, they just want their problems recognized and addressed.

Well at least minorities won't be coddled anymore.

 

[schuylaar]

Jesus man go to bed ffs

it never ceases to amaze me what someone will hit 'post reply' to.

 

[Fogdog]

How is Sanders "distancing himself from identity politics"?

People are tired of politicians using political correctness to advance their own agenda and to ignore real issues like wealth and income inequality

African Americans, Hispanics, and women all have a more favorable view of Sanders than white men;

"Among registered voters, fifty-eight percent of women view Sanders favorably, as do 55 percent of men. He is most popular among people aged 18 to 34, who give him a 62 percent approval rating. Sanders also has majority support among those over the age of 50.

While Sanders struggled during his Democratic primary challenge against Clinton in states with large African-American voting populations, he is viewed favorably by 73 percent of black registered voters.

That’s better than Hispanics, at 68 percent favorable, Asian-Americans, at 62 percent favorable, and whites, at 52 percent favorable."

And he has a consistently high rating from the NAACP

The perfect strategy to "allow ambiguous systematic racism to continue" is to promote programs and policies that would disproportionately benefit the poor, minorities, and women?

25% of Hillary Clinton voters voted for John McCain in 2008, compared to 11% of Sanders voters (as well as 9% of Democrats) who voted for Trump. That's twice as many Clinton supporters who are "blind to the effects of racism in this country"

How is Sanders "breaking to the right on social issues"? Can you cite a few examples? You keep making these statements without any evidence to support them. The evidence already provided shows that minorities and women support Sanders more than white men, and he's got one of the highest ratings in congress from African Americans

What part of "people are tired of Poltical Correctness" don't you understand? Benie has a good voting record on racial issues. He's not a leader on them. I'm happy to have him in Congress. I would prefer a better leader in the WH.

Again, you quote opinion polls, which are interesting but don't reflect how they will vote. When they voted, Bernie was waxed by Clinton. Most strongly in the African American and Hispanic and women demographics.

Same goes with your idea that 'murica is thirsting for liberal policies. Yet when people vote, it's been for conservatives. 'murica is mostly white and white people by and large don't care about how systemic racism affects African Americans and Hispanic people.

What are you crying about anyway? You are the guy who says it's OK to gratuitously insult homosexual men if it's done in context. You are the one who raged about how social justice warriors should be kicked to the curb. Isn't my recognition and agreement that this strategy will succeed in taking seats away from the radical right making you happy?

 

[schuylaar]

That was an event sponsored by the DNC as part of their "Come Together, Fight Back" tour, that included Vice Chair Keith Ellison and Nebraska Democratic Party Chair Jane Kleeb, that was also supported by Tom Perez

What candidates does OurRevolution support you "would almost definitely call conservative" or "moderate in relation to the radical right"? Can you cite a few people?

“Of course we are, we’re tweaking the final points of the bill and we’re figuring out how we can mount a national campaign to bring people together,” Sanders told Jake Tapper on CNN’s State of the Union.

Sanders: I'm 'absolutely' introducing single-payer healthcare bill

"It has been the goal of Democrats since Franklin D. Roosevelt to create a universal health care system guaranteeing health care to all people. Every other major industrialized nation has done so. It is time for this country to join them and fulfill the legacy of Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Lyndon B. Johnson and other great Democrats."

Medicare for All: Leaving No One Behind

Racial justice has been on his platform since day 1 and he's been an advocate for civil rights his entire adult life

"We must pursue policies to transform this country into a nation that affirms the value of its people of color. That starts with addressing the five central types of violence waged against black, brown and indigenous Americans: physical, political, legal, economic and environmental."

Racial Justice

“And by the way, I think again we probably should have a resolution passed in Congress which I hope can pass unanimously condemning neo-Nazism and white racism,” Sanders said in an interview on “Andrea Mitchell Reports.”

Bernie Sanders Wants A Congressional Resolution To Condemn ‘Neo-Nazism’ And ‘White Racism’

Bernie Sanders on Civil Rights

19 Examples of Bernie Sanders' Powerful Record on Civil and Human Rights Since the 1950s

Sanders NAACP Rating

Like who?

Here are Sanders' policy positions on how to combat racism, beginning with physical violence;

He goes on to address political violence, legal violence, economic violence, and environmental violence in very specific policy focused ways, here

How do you believe Sanders policies disproportionately benefit white people? Cite a specific policy that targets white people

What policies does Sanders support that specifically target white moderate conservatives?

Not from my experience. Conservatives generally support the current system of campaign finance, some have even cited 1st amendment rights as legal justification

Sanders is going to sponsor a medicare for all bill. Universal healthcare is one of his top priorities heading into 2018 and 2020

So it's been established by his voting record and NAACP rating that Sanders is undoubtedly progressive on the issues and has been particularly engaged in racial issues his entire political career, always voting in the right direction. It would be pretty tough to make the case that he is either fiscally moderate or socially conservative

Sanders considers enacting a system of universal healthcare a top priority, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that he doesn't support it when every interview he's given about it proves he does

How is Sanders "surrendering to systematic racism"?

+rep nice job!

 

[schuylaar]

You've been sheep dogged. Universal healthcare is not a top priority. Top priority is winning back Congress as it should be.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/348258-sanders-single-payer-isnt-a-litmus-test-for-dems

He isn't hard line about universal healthcare. Candidates don't have to endorse the policy to get backing from his "Our Revolution" reform movement.
Same goes with women's rights; http://www.npr.org/2017/04/20/524962482/sanders-defends-campaigning-for-anti-abortion-rights-democrat
Same goes with other social justice issues; http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-democrats-identity-politics-231710

About the only issue that he's stood fast on is reforming campaign finance. And that's still good enough for me. For now.

I'm OK with all of his changes in position. His weakness on issues affecting minorities and women is in fact status quo. He's not saying anything new here at all. He's downplaying social justice issues to attract white voters. He says "people are tired of pc" after 8 years of a black president. Exhausted. By "people" he means white people. Don't think this nuance isn't heard loud and clear by minority communities.

He's bringing together white voters and ensuring his policies won't offend their white pride. This is selling out to systematic racism. This is the policy of continuation of racial economic stratification where African Americans and Hispanic Americans make 80% of what white Americans do. I'm disappointed that work started under Obama's administration to confront racial issues will take the back seat with the coalition that Sanders is organizing.

But don't take me as saying the strategy won't work. I think it will. Unifying moderate left and right white people will create a strong majority and allow us to take seats in Congress in 2018. African Americans and Hispanic Americans will acquiesce, assuming a "Our Revolution" platform is adopted in 2020 or sooner because there is no place for them in the Republican Party. Again, this is status quo, maybe a small retreat from where we were under the Obama administration.

The policies and links you quote are all old. Some pages contain information that was current in 2012.

This is from August 9, 2017:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-sanders-movement-is-only-just-beginning/2016/08/09/228b8744-5d87-11e6-9d2f-b1a3564181a1_story.html?utm_term=.a8218e9dd555

where's trump on all of this?

 

[ttystikk]

Well at least minorities won't be coddled anymore.

That's the best you can do?

Your white condescension is showing.

 

[ttystikk]

What part of "people are tired of Poltical Correctness" don't you understand? Benie has a good voting record on racial issues. He's not a leader on them. I'm happy to have him in Congress. I would prefer a better leader in the WH.

Again, you quote opinion polls, which are interesting but don't reflect how they will vote. When they voted, Bernie was waxed by Clinton. Most strongly in the African American and Hispanic and women demographics.

Same goes with your idea that 'murica is thirsting for liberal policies. Yet when people vote, it's been for conservatives. 'murica is mostly white and white people by and large don't care about how systemic racism affects African Americans and Hispanic people.

What are you crying about anyway? You are the guy who says it's OK to gratuitously insult homosexual men if it's done in context. You are the one who raged about how social justice warriors should be kicked to the curb. Isn't my recognition and agreement that this strategy will succeed in taking seats away from the radical right making you happy?

You got nobody even coming close to 'better' for the White House. So here you are, whining.

What, you need to be coddled, sweet cheeks?

Get over yourself.

 

[Padawanbater2]

What part of "people are tired of Poltical Correctness" don't you understand? Benie has a good voting record on racial issues. He's not a leader on them. I'm happy to have him in Congress. I would prefer a better leader in the WH.

So Sanders said "people are tired of political correctness" during one debate, so regardless of his career voting record on racial issues in support of minorities and his rating from the NAACP, you view this as "distancing himself from identity politics"? I say "you view this" because you're one of the only people who believes it. His record is clear, he was alongside John Lewis during the civil rights movement, are you claiming Lewis isn't a leader on racial issues, too?

Again, you quote opinion polls, which are interesting but don't reflect how they will vote. When they voted, Bernie was waxed by Clinton. Most strongly in the African American and Hispanic and women demographics.

I didn't say anything about the study out of Harvard being indicative of how anyone will vote. It provides evidence of Bernie Sanders approval rating among different groups of people in America. According to the study, Sanders has a higher approval rating among minorities, particularly African Americans, and women than he does with white men. So, if Sanders or the policies he supports reflected your opinion, that he's only supported by white males, why don't the numbers show that?

Same goes with your idea that 'murica is thirsting for liberal policies. Yet when people vote, it's been for conservatives. 'murica is mostly white and white people by and large don't care about how systemic racism affects African Americans and Hispanic people.

Republicans have won across the country because Democrats have failed at representing progressive values. The pendulum effect. Public opinion favors the progressive position on the legalization of marijuana, increasing taxes on the wealthy and corporations, universal healthcare, a non interventionist foreign policy, raising the minimum wage to a living wage, etc. The only outliers are capital punishment and regulating guns



So why do you say you support Sanders if his policies only benefit white men and he's terrible when it comes to racial issues and womens health? Why would you support someone like that?

 

[twostrokenut]

Even fewer than Oregon? And the African Americans who do live in Vermont say they felt invisible to him. This shouldn't come as a surprise to our Bernie babies. I've been telling them the same thing for about a year now.

oh you're discussing the black vote? how about one of your ballwashing crews trade mark deep South jokes right about now?

 

[Gquebed]

Yes, your color blind idea of racism in the US says everything we need to know about how "Our Revolution" reformers think of this issue.

"Minorities like to be coddled"

@ttystikk and @Padawanbater2 , you have a new compadre..

Actually that's unfair of me to say. G is one of the moderate Republican types that Bernie says he would support in the hopes of drawing into the "Our Revolution" reform.

Coddled.

Im a moderate republican? You diagnosed after reading a dozen or so posts of mine on 3 topics?

Man did you miss. By american liberal/democrat standards i am a full blown communist.

 

[ttystikk]

Im a moderate republican? You diagnosed after reading a dozen or so posts of mine on 3 topics?

Man did you miss. By american liberal/democrat standards i am a full blown communist.

I've noticed Fogsmog is very confused as to his lefts and rights of late.

 

[Padawanbater2]

I've noticed Fogsmog is very confused as to his lefts and rights of late.

He's attempting to paint Sanders supporters as social conservatives so he has to try to frame the narrative in a way that makes it seem like his only support comes from economically well off white guys. Everything I've posted the past few pages completely refutes that argument. He keeps replying with reasons why he believes Sanders policies perpetuate systemic racism, and I keep asking him why he says he supports him if he believes that, I wouldn't support a politician if I believed their policies perpetuate systemic racism, but he hasn't answered that yet..

 

[ttystikk]

He's attempting to paint Sanders supporters as social conservatives so he has to try to frame the narrative in a way that makes it seem like his only support comes from economically well off white guys. Everything I've posted the past few pages completely refutes that argument. He keeps replying with reasons why he believes Sanders policies perpetuate systemic racism, and I keep asking him why he says he supports him if he believes that, I wouldn't support a politician if I believed their policies perpetuate systemic racism, but he hasn't answered that yet..

So what do you think his underlying agenda is with all this twisting of the facts? He's obviously completely misrepresenting Bernie's record and positions in order to stuff him into some prefabricated box.

Why?

And why do it with the one sitting politician closest to his own espoused political positions?

Is he just terrified of the threat to the establishment Democratic Party? And why would he think that's a bad thing?

The denial and disbelief of mainstream Democrats after the Chump won the election strikes me as unreal- as in, they refuse to recognize the realities of what they did and how they've failed to make their case to the voters they say they they speak for. The disconnect is palpable to me. They NEED to be shaken up and if it takes an outside insurgent campaign to do it, so what?

 

[Gquebed]

So what do you think his underlying agenda is with all this twisting of the facts? He's obviously completely misrepresenting Bernie's record and positions in order to stuff him into some prefabricated box.

Why?

And why do it with the one sitting politician closest to his own espoused political positions?

Is he just terrified of the threat to the establishment Democratic Party? And why would he think that's a bad thing?

The denial and disbelief of mainstream Democrats after the Chump won the election strikes me as unreal- as in, they refuse to recognize the realities of what they did and how they've failed to make their case to the voters they say they they speak for. The disconnect is palpable to me. They NEED to be shaken up and if it takes an outside insurgent campaign to do it, so what?

Underlying agenda?
Near as i can figure he is too confused to have one.

Could he just be a contrarian? Anything you say is a reason to oppose, whether or not he makes any sense or contradicts himself?

 

[ttystikk]

Underlying agenda?
Near as i can figure he is too confused to have one.

Could he just be a contrarian? Anything you say is a reason to oppose, whether or not he makes any sense or contradicts himself?

He used to be so much more coherent...