Seattle Minimum Wage not working out...

[althor]

WTF world do you fucking live in where construction people only make $15 an hour?

I started my adulthood in the Masonry business. When I was a 3rd year apprentice I was making 23.34 an hour. After my 4th year, I became a journeyman mason and wages were down to 20 an hour for a journeyman. Within 2 years wages were on average of 18. The last time I checked the average pay was 16 an hour for a skilled journeyman mason.

Concrete laborers make around 10 an hour in my area. If they are really, really good, they make around 12.

 

[althor]

There is something wrong about your argument. To begin with, the average hourly rate for cement pourer is $17.91/hr. That it pays this much tells us that it requires skill and physical resilience that employers put a premium above day labor type wages of 16.19/hr. What happens when minimum wage goes up? Those McD workers get a raise to keep them working at McD instead of other places, the day laborer gets a raise to keep him from leaving for McD and the cement pourer gets a raise to keep him from leaving for the day laborer job. That's how raising minimum wage ripples up the wage scale. When minimum wages rise the ripple effect goes up to about the 20th percentile of incomes. This isn't some right wingnut truthy stuff factoid, its well studied and characterized aspect of our capitalist society.

This isn't about "free stuff" either. Lower wage workers bust their asses for that paycheck. Over time, their income has lost ground compared to others and dollar-for-inflation-adjusted-dollar, their wages are lower than they were in 1980. Cement pouring is important work and I'd hope that we can continue to keep good people at that position.

Not in my area. Of course if you are taking a national average you need to account for the 8 dollar an hour employees in Alabama compared to the 35 dollars an hour employees in New York and all the other variances.

 

[thewanderingjack]

OH burn!!!!

and now the short bus is on fire!!! (jk loves all around)

 

[UncleBuck]

I started my adulthood in the Masonry business. When I was a 3rd year apprentice I was making 23.34 an hour. After my 4th year, I became a journeyman mason and wages were down to 20 an hour for a journeyman. Within 2 years wages were on average of 18. The last time I checked the average pay was 16 an hour for a skilled journeyman mason.

Concrete laborers make around 10 an hour in my area. If they are really, really good, they make around 12.

Not in my area. Of course if you are taking a national average you need to account for the 8 dollar an hour employees in Alabama compared to the 35 dollars an hour employees in New York and all the other variances.

if you're trying to convince us that abandoning unions and all ideas that encourage social mobility is a bad idea, don't bother.

you southern rednecks have made your goddamn beds, now you get to sleep in them.

stop whining ya fucking sissy.

 

[NLXSK1]

Wow...that has lazy pussy written all over it.

'I hurt my back and can't work hard anymore...'

Walk it off...be a man, not a lazy puss! WTF is wrong with you? Don't lie now and act like you make real money. A little pain and you throw in the towel...and then bitch about the real working men?

Go root for the cops to shoot somebody ya sick fuck...

I hurt my back and realized that if I hurt it worse or something else happened then I would lose a valuable asset with no compensation. At that time I decided it was much smarter to sell that valuable asset and go into a business where if I hurt my back for 2-3 weeks I would still be in business. The pain didnt stop me from working, it just made me realize I was nearing 50 and couldnt do it forever.

So I overcame and adapted and turned it into my advantage. Now I have the opportunity to make 200,000 per year rather than 100,000 per year, the hours are better, the pay is better and the working conditions are better.

Exactly what do you have to complain about?? I guess I should have just gone on disability and sat around on a pot website and bitched about the rich all day... Oh wait....

 

[tangerinegreen555]

Not in my area. Of course if you are taking a national average you need to account for the 8 dollar an hour employees in Alabama compared to the 35 dollars an hour employees in New York and all the other variances.

Then you live in a shitty republican controlled hell zone...

Too bad. I wouldn't leave the house in the morning for less than $30 an hr. with 1.5X OT after 8 hrs.
Plus incentive.

 

[b4ds33d]

I was replying to the guy who said "reflect on that."

I know it's very difficult for you, but try to keep up!

yeah sweetness, with no reference in your post, no one here is a mind reader dear.

 

[NLXSK1]

Bro you're making forecasts? Dude you're a fucking confirmed failure. What does it take to get to accept your debilitating shortcomings. Fucking A, 4 years ago you were certain Romney was gonna be prez. Today you're talking out of your ass about Seattle. Dude your pic is under the header clueless asshole.

So you are a UB sock puppet. No wonder you are not worried about getting reported....

 

[tangerinegreen555]

I hurt my back and realized that if I hurt it worse or something else happened then I would lose a valuable asset with no compensation. At that time I decided it was much smarter to sell that valuable asset and go into a business where if I hurt my back for 2-3 weeks I would still be in business. The pain didnt stop me from working, it just made me realize I was nearing 50 and couldnt do it forever.

So I overcame and adapted and turned it into my advantage. Now I have the opportunity to make 200,000 per year rather than 100,000 per year, the hours are better, the pay is better and the working conditions are better.

Exactly what do you have to complain about?? I guess I should have just gone on disability and sat around on a pot website and bitched about the rich all day... Oh wait....I AM DOING THAT

fify

who you bull shitting?

 

[NLXSK1]

There is no need for that! The Mods already know to ignore your Reports. LOL !!

So I get special treatment around here?

You didnt have to go to all that trouble :]

 

[NLXSK1]

fify

who you bull shitting?

Which part is bullshit? I can substantiate every word. I know reality chafes your ass but that is not my fault.

 

[Fogdog]

Not in my area. Of course if you are taking a national average you need to account for the 8 dollar an hour employees in Alabama compared to the 35 dollars an hour employees in New York and all the other variances.

The upward ripple effect that raising minimum wages has on those working for working for the lower 20th percentile of wages still applies.

Alabama concrete pourer: 16.11

Alabama day laborer: 14.42

If minimum wage goes up these wages will go up too.

The next argument is that inflation will go up. Umm no. want to say it? I'm ready.

 

[UncleBuck]

fify

who you bull shitting?

he needed some way to repay the loans he took out simply so that he wouldn't starve.

Naah, needed the loan for living expenses.

With a reservoir of cash I tried to combine with a previous employer and expand their home inspection business significantly. Over the next year and a half they failed to meet their promises while my reservoir of cash dried up.

I never had a partner in any business.

full of shit, full of lies, loser.

 

[thewanderingjack]

I hurt my back and realized that if I hurt it worse or something else happened then I would lose a valuable asset with no compensation. At that time I decided it was much smarter to sell that valuable asset and go into a business where if I hurt my back for 2-3 weeks I would still be in business. The pain didnt stop me from working, it just made me realize I was nearing 50 and couldnt do it forever.

So I overcame and adapted and turned it into my advantage. Now I have the opportunity to make 200,000 per year rather than 100,000 per year, the hours are better, the pay is better and the working conditions are better.

Exactly what do you have to complain about?? I guess I should have just gone on disability and sat around on a pot website and bitched about the rich all day... Oh wait....

Stuff happens... that's one thing some people never seem to get... "social service" to some form, is tax paid insurance or those bad times. Yeah a bunch of fuckers game the system.. It costs me money too... but assuming everyone has the resources for any problem that may come, that's just stupid. If no social programs are acceptable, then why do I contribute to the roads? I don't drive a car, hardly use motor vehicles or the roads, could certainly do without them... or how about education? I have no kids, but public schools are my responsibility?

I recently listened to a rant by my boss about how scholarships/affirmative action/low income aid, etc, was gonna seal his kids places in college... I met his kids.... and it seems to be he should be more concerned on whether they are capable of that level of thought and work. Very little chance of someone "taking" their spot.

Because somehow harming yourself (by ignoring your health problems) is more acceptable? So when I go from 'man my back is killing me' to I can no longer walk, who's gonna cover that?

I mean if that's how someone feels, well, go play in traffic, knock yourself out.

I see, corporations are okay to bail out, we depend on them... the work force... well fuck them right?

So, when robots have all the jobs, because it's so awesome, and most people are unemployed, and those that are oh so very gratefully to be employed at whatever they can get cuz there's plenty of poor-os waiting in line or a scrap of bread to take their measly job... and so the majority of people have no means to afford the very resources they make... that's gonna work out for whom? Yeah, the streets filled with unwashed masses... awesome... like I don't have enough bums begging me for cigs and money and pissed I won't fork over the little I have (not extra, but just on me)

 

[NLXSK1]

The upward ripple effect that raising minimum wages has on those working for working for the lower 20th percentile of wages still applies.

Alabama concrete pourer: 16.11

Alabama day laborer: 14.42

If minimum wage goes up these wages will go up too.

The next argument is that inflation will go up. Umm no. want to say it? I'm ready.

Really, you can check it out... Government forces wages to rise and nothing else happens... The money just comes from nowhere!!!

 

[NLXSK1]

Stuff happens... that's one thing some people never seem to get... "social service" to some form, is tax paid insurance or those bad times. Yeah a bunch of fuckers game the system.. It costs me money too... but assuming everyone has the resources for any problem that may come, that's just stupid. If no social programs are acceptable, then why do I contribute to the roads? I don't drive a car, hardly use motor vehicles or the roads, could certainly do without them... or how about education? I have no kids, but public schools are my responsibility?

I recently listened to a rant by my boss about how scholarships/affirmative action/low income aid, etc, was gonna seal his kids places in college... I met his kids.... and it seems to be he should be more concerned on whether they are capable of that level of thought and work. Very little chance of someone "taking" their spot.

Because somehow harming yourself (by ignoring your health problems) is more acceptable? So when I go from 'man my back is killing me' to I can no longer walk, who's gonna cover that?

I mean if that's how someone feels, well, go play in traffic, knock yourself out.

I see, corporations are okay to bail out, we depend on them... the work force... well fuck them right?

So, when robots have all the jobs, because it's so awesome, and most people are unemployed, and those that are oh so very gratefully to be employed at whatever they can get cuz there's plenty of poor-os waiting in line or a scrap of bread to take their measly job... and so the majority of people have no means to afford the very resources they make... that's gonna work out for whom? Yeah, the streets filled with unwashed masses... awesome... like I don't have enough bums begging me for cigs and money and pissed I won't fork over the little I have (not extra, but just on me)

15% of people in America are on food stamps... It isnt a couple of people gaming the system. Disability has gone through the roof. That is full social security payments to people in their 20's, 30's, 40's etc... We are 20 trillion dollars in debt, most of that is supposedly owed to the American people. Who is going to pay that back?? When are we going to stop burdening our future children??

The government is trying to force economic activity by raising wages when there is no impetus. Which means it puts a crunch on jobs. We need more jobs and the government is doing everything it can to create less jobs.

Again, how much is the UNEMPLOYED person going to benefit from the new minimum wage?

Nobody is saying there should be no safety nets but there is also too much.

Obama will be the first president in the history of America to govern over a period with less than 3% growth. That is for his full 8 years. That is jobs not being created and prosperity being crushed by legislation, litigation, excessive regulation and a general attitude that business people are rich greedy bastards.

 

[Fogdog]

Really, you can check it out... Government forces wages to rise and nothing else happens... The money just comes from nowhere!!!

This is going to be above your little Inspector Clousseau mind but here it goes:

Raising minimum wage affects the bottom 20% of wages. As shown on the chart, those wages represent a teensy fraction of incomes -- 3.2% -- in the US. Raising minimum wages would adjust that dark blue bar in the bottom 20% category up to 1967 levels. It has negligable effect beyond that. You might pay a bit more for a hamburger at McD or other fast food joint and maybe your slurpee will go up a bit at 7-11 but the important items such as gasoline, cars, clothing (made elsewhere), beer and housing other than lower end rentals aren't going to change one bit. What will happen, however is a little more money will be in the pockets of people who will spend it on food, clothing, housing, gasoline which in turn boosts local economies.

Not saying this solves any major problems but it's not the disaster right wingers declare this movement in wages will cause.

 

[thewanderingjack]

no impetus

I think there's an impetus, the economic/job market problems... I think their "solution" is not entirely well thought out.

You have made many solid points about that.

I also agree that "a lot" of people game the system... sorry if I made it seem like only a little... I meant some not all. But then we should improve the screening process...

And still, I don't think that SSI and other benefits, as a rule, over pay... I mean yeah to those ripping it off... but to those who actually need it? it's pretty low... for the most part it's assistance (I think ood stamp's around $150 a month or something right now? That's not exactly actually paying for someone's foods for a month. The other benefits are equally low, hence section 8 housing (a whole nother bag of mess... truly cheap housing). So, granted that there's a loss there we need to plug... but anyone who's not taking our whole budget into account, including all the money we spend on things that have no transparecy... well, there's a lot of places we can talk about fixing.

Ignoring that is just as bad as the people who think raising the wage is gonna make money magically appear (as opposed to lower the value of the dollar/cause a lot of the problems here described., and the reason we have so many arguments and not a lot of solutions.

People are afraid to compromise (rightly so, since usually means both parties are unhappy and not getting anything they want)... but also to meet in the reasonable middle.

If things the grass is really that toxic on the other side (to flip a metaphor, since here each side thinks the others is full of shit) then why not do the decent thing and split? This country is unwieldy anyway. If States had more power to define how things are run, we could all have a state that caters to out personal proclivities, or at least accepts them.

Maybe, rather than keep new immigrants out we should see if any citizens want to go abroad. At least the people coming in want to be here and most are looking or the "American Dream"... for those already here, it seems it's mostly disillusionment. A lot of those countries are charting higher on education anyway... and we need bright minds. The Nazi scientists were good enough, why not the Irish farmer? (sorry, wrong immigrants everyone wants out... Italians? no no they have been welcomed here too now... um French? Japanese? I forget, who are we trying to keep out now? Or are we back to penning natives? I get so lost sometimes...

 

[Fogdog]

15% of people in America are on food stamps... It isnt a couple of people gaming the system. Disability has gone through the roof. That is full social security payments to people in their 20's, 30's, 40's etc... We are 20 trillion dollars in debt, most of that is supposedly owed to the American people. Who is going to pay that back?? When are we going to stop burdening our future children??

The government is trying to force economic activity by raising wages when there is no impetus. Which means it puts a crunch on jobs. We need more jobs and the government is doing everything it can to create less jobs.

Again, how much is the UNEMPLOYED person going to benefit from the new minimum wage?

Nobody is saying there should be no safety nets but there is also too much.

Obama will be the first president in the history of America to govern over a period with less than 3% growth. That is for his full 8 years. That is jobs not being created and prosperity being crushed by legislation, litigation, excessive regulation and a general attitude that business people are rich greedy bastards.

not a single fact in that. Not one.

 

[UncleBuck]

I think there's an impetus, the economic/job market problems... I think their "solution" is not entirely well thought out.

You have made many solid points about that.

I also agree that "a lot" of people game the system... sorry if I made it seem like only a little... I meant some not all. But then we should improve the screening process...

And still, I don't think that SSI and other benefits, as a rule, over pay... I mean yeah to those ripping it off... but to those who actually need it? it's pretty low... for the most part it's assistance (I think ood stamp's around $150 a month or something right now? That's not exactly actually paying for someone's foods for a month. The other benefits are equally low, hence section 8 housing (a whole nother bag of mess... truly cheap housing). So, granted that there's a loss there we need to plug... but anyone who's not taking our whole budget into account, including all the money we spend on things that have no transparecy... well, there's a lot of places we can talk about fixing.

Ignoring that is just as bad as the people who think raising the wage is gonna make money magically appear (as opposed to lower the value of the dollar/cause a lot of the problems here described., and the reason we have so many arguments and not a lot of solutions.

People are afraid to compromise (rightly so, since usually means both parties are unhappy and not getting anything they want)... but also to meet in the reasonable middle.

If things the grass is really that toxic on the other side (to flip a metaphor, since here each side thinks the others is full of shit) then why not do the decent thing and split? This country is unwieldy anyway. If States had more power to define how things are run, we could all have a state that caters to out personal proclivities, or at least accepts them.

Maybe, rather than keep new immigrants out we should see if any citizens want to go abroad. At least the people coming in want to be here and most are looking or the "American Dream"... for those already here, it seems it's mostly disillusionment. A lot of those countries are charting higher on education anyway... and we need bright minds. The Nazi scientists were good enough, why not the Irish farmer? (sorry, wrong immigrants everyone wants out... Italians? no no they have been welcomed here too now... um French? Japanese? I forget, who are we trying to keep out now? Or are we back to penning natives? I get so lost sometimes...