Donald Trump

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Not GOP

Not GOP

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Fogdog said:
This isn't a morality play here. It's just plain logic. Destabilize Mexico's economy and there will be more people looking to cross the border. What a idiotic way to begin an initiative to stem illegal immigration across our southern border.
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Mexico's economy is not ours to stabilize. We are not the world police. America has its own problems
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

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Not GOP said:
Mexico's economy is not ours to stabilize. We are not the world police. America has its own problems
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You are coming at this as if it were a moral issue. Same blind spot that Bush Jr had. I'm not saying "should" or those poor starving children. I'm saying that Trumps plan to hunt down immigrants and ship them off in addition to raising tariffs on goods from Mexico would be a shock to that country's economy. Absolutely the worst thing one could do if they wanted to "solve" the immigration issue. The only permanent and cost effective solution is a stronger economy in Mexico and better jobs and pay for its workers. How the two countries get there is up for grabs.
 
Red1966

Red1966

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churchhaze said:
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Trump is an asshole? He said he would ban all muslims coming in, and said that Mexicans are murderers, rapists, and thieves.

Isn't that enough reason to dislike a candidate?

Straight up, Trump is a NAZI and a white supremacist and that makes you a NAZI, or just a low information voter.
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Islam is a religion that endorses murder, rape, lying, and theft. He said SOME Mexicans are murderers, rapist, and thieves. And some are. We have no obligation to import large masses of unskilled laborers who place a burden on society along with the inevitable criminals among them. Calling him a Nazi and a white supremacist is making YOU the liar.
 
Not GOP

Not GOP

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Fogdog said:
You are coming at this as if it were a moral issue. Same blind spot that Bush Jr had. I'm not saying "should" or those poor starving children. I'm saying that Trumps plan to hunt down immigrants and ship them off in addition to raising tariffs on goods from Mexico would be a shock to that country's economy. Absolutely the worst thing one could do if they wanted to "solve" the immigration issue. The only permanent and cost effective solution is a stronger economy in Mexico and better jobs and pay for its workers. How the two countries get there is up for grabs.
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You personally making a difference is a moral issue. Making it the U.S. governemnt's problem is a political issue.

If you think Mexico cares about what you think of better pay and jobs for its workers, you're crazy. You can't expect the Mexican government to give up its power because it would be the politically correct thing to do. Change starts from the inside out. In other words, the best chance Mexico has for change, is Mexicans. Not Americans.
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

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Not GOP said:
You personally making a difference is a moral issue. Making it the U.S. governemnt's problem is a political issue.

If you think Mexico cares about what you think of better pay and jobs for its workers, you're crazy. You can't expect the Mexican government to give up its power because it would be the politically correct thing to do. Change starts from the inside out. In other words, the best chance Mexico has for change, is Mexicans. Not Americans.
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There you go again. Do I think Mexico "cares"? No, I don't but that's irrelevant. Again, you take this as a moral play. "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps boy. Its what's best for you."

Again, I'm saying that Trumps plan would make the immigration issue worse, not better. As in wrecking Mexico's economy would just create more people trying to find a way to eke out a living in the US.

IF we were serious about permanently dealing with immigration, and I don't think Trump or any of the 1% are serious about doing this, the only long term answer and most cost effective solution is to have good jobs for Mexican workers in Mexico. I don't propose a solution other than to point out that weak labor laws are a part of the problem because they prevent the Mexican worker's ability to fight for better pay and conditions. Same goes for here.
 
Not GOP

Not GOP

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Fogdog said:
There you go again. Do I think Mexico "cares"? No, I don't but that's irrelevant. Again, you take this as a moral play. "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps boy. Its what's best for you."

Again, I'm saying that Trumps plan would make the immigration issue worse, not better. As in wrecking Mexico's economy would just create more people trying to find a way to eke out a living in the US.

IF we were serious about permanently dealing with immigration, and I don't think Trump or any of the 1% are serious about doing this, the only long term answer and most cost effective solution is to have good jobs for Mexican workers in Mexico. I don't propose a solution other than to point out that weak labor laws are a part of the problem because they prevent the Mexican worker's ability to fight for better pay and conditions. Same goes for here.
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Stop with the "moral" card. I'm not some left wing fanatic who coincides feelings into politics according to what I believe to be right and wrong only. It's also important to consider what works, and what doesn't. Pushing ideology non stop, no matter how big a failure... is liberalism
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

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Not GOP said:
Stop with the "moral" card. I'm not some left wing fanatic who coincides feelings into politics according to what I believe to be right and wrong only. It's also important to consider what works, and what doesn't. Pushing ideology non stop, no matter how big a failure... is liberalism
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You are so bound up in your right wing ideology and morality, you don't recognize how deeply your ideas are stamped with it. Then you keep telling me that I'm pushing an ideology. All I'm saying is that Trump's ideas on immigration and trade with Mexico would very obviously crash Mexico's economy and would only create a larger pool of people trying to get into the US. This is not a long term solution to immigration. Argue with the facts of the matter if you want, just keep the right wing ideology and morality to yourself. .

Saying things like: "its not our job to take care of Mexico's economy" is exactly what I mean by your right wing morality plays. Of course you can't see that you are spouting ideology and not facts when you say that. Wingnut-speak is what I call it.
 
Not GOP

Not GOP

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Fogdog said:
You are so bound up in your right wing ideology and morality, you don't recognize how deeply your ideas are stamped with it. Then you keep telling me that I'm pushing an ideology. All I'm saying is that Trump's ideas on immigration and trade with Mexico would very obviously crash Mexico's economy and would only create a larger pool of people trying to get into the US. This is not a long term solution to immigration. Argue with the facts of the matter if you want, just keep the right wing ideology and morality to yourself. .

Saying things like: "its not our job to take care of Mexico's economy" is exactly what I mean by your right wing morality plays. Of course you can't see that you are spouting ideology and not facts when you say that. Wingnut-speak is what I call it.
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Your post reminded me of a quote Ronald Reagan once said
"It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.”

My points are not ideological, they are common sensical. Your argument on trade with Mexico, is that they haven't stolen enough of our jobs yet. It's starting to appear there is an ulterior motive in your politics
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

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Not GOP said:
Your post reminded me of a quote Ronald Reagan once said
"It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.”

My points are not ideological, they are common sensical. Your argument on trade with Mexico, is that they haven't stolen enough of our jobs yet. It's starting to appear there is an ulterior motive in your politics
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Nope, I didn't say what you claim at all. I'm saying that Trump's plan for immigration and trade with Mexico would crash their economy and create a large pool of people trying to get into the US. This is not a long term answer to the immigration problem. Argue with this if you like.

I also recall Reagan saying that he didn't get bogged down in facts when making a decision. As if he was capable of weighing facts for much of his senile presidency. He was the first of the faith based decision making Republican presidents.
 
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