giving defoliation during flower a try

[Uncle Ben]

This is not near as stupid as the "study" on cannabis toxins whereby they spiked the cannabis flowers with pesticides, ran them thru various pipes and when the residual materials came out positive jumped up and down saying "see, there it is right there, there's pesticides in cannabis!" I still can't get over the stupidity of this supposedly scientific study. Here's some excerpts of the posts at the Riddle site. You must click on this study, you won't believe it. Enjoy.......

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?url=http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/jt/2013/378168.pdf&hl=en&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm0h8sykvMpwYSFzIRcmA_p6T3NDFA&nossl=1&oi=scholarr

Well here is a link to a pdf file on paclobutrazol and a bunch of other chemicals found in cannabis samples that were burned and condensed !!!!!! Just want you all to know that I'm not going to post facts about things I don't know about. I did a lot of searching on this stuff when I found out about the rumors! Hope that pdf works if not just google search paclobutrazol in cannabis!!

BLANK, the study is flawed. it's a big fuckin' lie. (Hell, I feel like I've been Obama-ed.) THEY ADDED THE CHEMICALS IN LARGE DOSES DIRECTLY TO THE PROCESSED FLOWERS and then tested. The material was spiked and then tested. What a load of crap! There is no DATA available as to how much, when, and how chemicals were applied under normal cultural conditions nor is there mention that all pesticides degrade into chemicals that are not considered harmful under NORMAL circumstances. For example, the organophosphates break down over time into phosphates from which they were made. Malathion in as little as 5 days.

To the sifted plant material, a concentrated solution
of pesticide mixture in methanol, prepared to contain
0.730mg/mL bifenthrin, 7.41mg/mL diazinon, 4.37mg/mL
paclobutrazol, and 6.18mg/mL permethrin, was then added
incrementally to the plant material. These concentrations
were selected to allow for full quantification of residues
captured in the gas wash bottle solutions. A total of 8.30mL
of the pesticide mixture solution was added to 7.4860 g of
the material incrementally. Each increment was carried out
by adding 1mL of the solution drop-wise.......


Look at Table 2: Spiked plantmaterial extractions.

There is no data provided relevant to real field application methods, amounts, frequency, time from application of the flowers to the amount of time to harvest. Those are all important variables that were ignored. Why? Because they spinned it to get to a conclusion that more than likely is based on principles or ideology. There was plenty of what ifs and scare tactics used in that presentation. Excuse the pun, but I smell a (lab) rat.

Uncle Ben

 

[AlphaPhase]

The stem splitting thing doesn't make bigger buds at all from what I've seen, it just kills the plant slowly causing it to finish a bit earlier, or something like that

 

[skunkd0c]

The stem splitting thing doesn't make bigger buds at all from what I've seen, it just kills the plant slowly causing it to finish a bit earlier, or something like that

didn't that idea come from the Colombian "gold" thing ?
supposedly making the buds a yellow gold colour because of stem splitting

 

[lawlrus]

depending on the amount of leaves a given pheno makes and the growth structure removing some leaves
helps open things up a little, but there are always alternatives to achieve the same goal IMO

removing leaves is a compensation for leafy plants and poor spacing/plant structure / organisation
with the right phenos and good organisation defoliation is not necessary at all
keeping as many leaves as possible in direct light is the best possible outcome for any plant

think of it like chopping your foot off because you have gangrene of the big toe

peace

I respectfully disagree. I didn't say that heavy-handed defoliation is always necessary (I'm guilty of that at times), but any type of vertical setup is going to benefit from at least some degree of defoliation, even if it is only larger fans and not actual interior leaves. I do agree that some strains require far less work to provide for an excellent vertical "canopy" but I have yet to see one that would not benefit from at least light defoliation.

Just my opinion and I'm sure others have had different experiences, so as with anything on a forum like this, take everything into consideration while keeping the good and leaving the bad.

 

[AlphaPhase]

That might be the origin skunkd0c I honestly don't know though, I do know that there are very few times that anyone should do it, it just makes the trichs ripen faster for an early harvest from what I've seen. The plant stops growing for the most part and just ripens on the stalk a bit then harvest time

 

[skunkd0c]

I respectfully disagree. I didn't say that heavy-handed defoliation is always necessary (I'm guilty of that at times), but any type of vertical setup is going to benefit from at least some degree of defoliation, even if it is only larger fans and not actual interior leaves. Just my opinion and I'm sure others have had different experiences, so as with anything on a forum like this, take everything into consideration while keeping the good and leaving the bad.

i am not against it mate, i have played around with leaf removal for 20 years, i came to the conclusion that
it can help, but its still compensating for a poor structure or spacing , if it was a desirable thing to do i would still do it on every plant i grow
but i only do it when things get jungle like in my space now
i also find that indica doms do not respond well the thicker more fleshy the leaves are on a given pheno the worse the reaction is to leaf removal in my experience
it can lower yield and cause distorted regrowth and leafy colas
removing leaves is more work so i would rather not do it at all
but i still would not tell folk not to do it, i think its best if folk learn from their own mistakes and success
if they are happy with the results go for it

peace

 

[lawlrus]

i am not against it mate, i have played around with leaf removal for 20 years, i came to the conclusion that
it can help, but its still compensating for a poor structure or spacing , if it was a desirable thing to do i would still do it on every plant i grow
but i only do it when things get jungle like in my space now
i also find that indica doms do not respond well the thicker more fleshy the leaves are on a given pheno the worse the reaction is to leaf removal in my experience
it can lower yield and cause distorted regrowth and leafy colas
removing leaves is more work so i would rather not do it at all
but i still would not tell folk not to do it, i think its best if folk learn from their own mistakes and success
if they are happy with the results go for it

peace

I agree with much of this. I definitely don't go out of my way to recommend it to folks unless they are looking for the information. If done incorrectly it can certainly be more harmful than helpful.

I am typically a vert-only grower so I don't bother with indica-dominant strains since they are not typically appropriate for a vertical environment, as you alluded to.

Take care man.

 

[skunkd0c]

I agree with much of this. I definitely don't go out of my way to recommend it to folks unless they are looking for the information. If done incorrectly it can certainly be more harmful than helpful.

I am typically a vert-only grower so I don't bother with indica-dominant strains since they are not typically appropriate for a vertical environment, as you alluded to.

Take care man.

maybe it is something that folk should only play around with once they actually know how to grow healthy plants and have their methods dialed in, perhaps a bit like co2 addition
newbies don't run before you can walk so to speak

the problem is so many newbies believe defoliation is a shortcut to a massive yield increase, like its some kind of magic trick
this is obviously nonsense, and the horrible plants i see on this forum stripped bare, hopefully these folk will learn from these mistakes

peace

 

[skunkd0c]

great example here folks, this dude is running a 5k room/tent
look how bare his poor plants are, he has lost at least 2lb 30-40 oz or more imo because of his leaf removal and general lack of health of the plants

running before you can walk ^^

https://www.rollitup.org/t/5k-watt-grow-just-wondering-if-anyone-had-an-idea-of-lbs-i-would-crop.857627/page-4#post-11253692

if plants could suffer anorexia nervosa ^^ he is gutted too and so he should be
this will be his best lesson

 

[AlphaPhase]

Ouch... Those plants look horrendous. I made it to page 2 of the thread and now my head hurts. That's a lot of watts for whatever it is he's trying to grow. I bet I get more off my 1000w tthan his 4000w grow and I have less plants lol

 

[RM3]

The trick to make plants gold is girdling the stem not poking it

 

[AlphaPhase]

That's cool Rm- I never knew that, does it work on all strains? Just tighten a hose clamp around the stem or something? Not sure if I'd want gold buds but this summer I'll be doing a bunch of outdoor experiments. It'll be much easier to do small side by sides when the outcome won't matter too much. I'm going to have 10 plants in 1 gallon pots to play with so I think a girdling/ defoliation/ cleaving side by side will be fun to do. If anyone has any other stuff like this let me know and i'll side by side em.

 

[RM3]

That's cool Rm- I never knew that, does it work on all strains? Just tighten a hose clamp around the stem or something? Not sure if I'd want gold buds but this summer I'll be doing a bunch of outdoor experiments. It'll be much easier to do small side by sides when the outcome won't matter too much. I'm going to have 10 plants in 1 gallon pots to play with so I think a girdling/ defoliation/ cleaving side by side will be fun to do. If anyone has any other stuff like this let me know and i'll side by side em.

take a razor blade and cut thru the green outer coating on the stem all the way around, then do it again 1/2 inch from first cut, then remove the the "bark" in between the 2 cuts. Takes 2 to 3 weeks for the plant to turn "gold" (more of a brown LOL)

 

[AlphaPhase]

Right on RM, that sounds very counter productive lol, I'll try it anyway for shits and grins Do you know why it turns gold/brown? I kind of understand why the "stake" through the stem speeds up flowering, mostly due to less water/nutrient uptake/ stress causing it to finish early/ try to make more seeds for survival or something along those lines.. (outdoors it's hard to speed things up when a plant is in the ground using nutrients) but indoor grows there are nutrients available that do the same thing as stabbing the plant does pretty much. It's funny that was brought up because I haven't seen anyone do that in a very long time, I totally forgot about it. So I was reading up today on the procedure and it seems like a lot of foriegn countries practice the voodoo doll technique, anyone know why? I wouldn't think they would be doing it to speed up harvest since africa is warm and there's no need to dodge snow or frost, does it really add resin? Because I never noticed anything like that other than the plant slowly dieing and finishing early, no bigger buds, no more resin, I wasn't even aware of that being the reason cleaving is done

 

[churchhaze]

Make sure to sever both xylem and phloem completely for ultimate THC.

 

[Uncle Ben]

great example here folks, this dude is running a 5k room/tent
look how bare his poor plants are, he has lost at least 2lb 30-40 oz or more imo because of his leaf removal and general lack of health of the plants

running before you can walk ^^

https://www.rollitup.org/t/5k-watt-grow-just-wondering-if-anyone-had-an-idea-of-lbs-i-would-crop.857627/page-4#post-11253692

if plants could suffer anorexia nervosa ^^ he is gutted too and so he should be
this will be his best lesson

Gives new meaning to the phrase, "stupid is as stupid does".

 

[BROBIE]

This is not near as stupid as the "study" on cannabis toxins whereby they spiked the cannabis flowers with pesticides, ran them thru various pipes and when the residual materials came out positive jumped up and down saying "see, there it is right there, there's pesticides in cannabis!" I still can't get over the stupidity of this supposedly scientific study. Here's some excerpts of the posts at the Riddle site. You must click on this study, you won't believe it. Enjoy.......



BLANK, the study is flawed. it's a big fuckin' lie. (Hell, I feel like I've been Obama-ed.) THEY ADDED THE CHEMICALS IN LARGE DOSES DIRECTLY TO THE PROCESSED FLOWERS and then tested. The material was spiked and then tested. What a load of crap! There is no DATA available as to how much, when, and how chemicals were applied under normal cultural conditions nor is there mention that all pesticides degrade into chemicals that are not considered harmful under NORMAL circumstances. For example, the organophosphates break down over time into phosphates from which they were made. Malathion in as little as 5 days.

To the sifted plant material, a concentrated solution
of pesticide mixture in methanol, prepared to contain
0.730mg/mL bifenthrin, 7.41mg/mL diazinon, 4.37mg/mL
paclobutrazol, and 6.18mg/mL permethrin, was then added
incrementally to the plant material. These concentrations
were selected to allow for full quantification of residues
captured in the gas wash bottle solutions. A total of 8.30mL
of the pesticide mixture solution was added to 7.4860 g of
the material incrementally. Each increment was carried out
by adding 1mL of the solution drop-wise.......


Look at Table 2: Spiked plantmaterial extractions.

There is no data provided relevant to real field application methods, amounts, frequency, time from application of the flowers to the amount of time to harvest. Those are all important variables that were ignored. Why? Because they spinned it to get to a conclusion that more than likely is based on principles or ideology. There was plenty of what ifs and scare tactics used in that presentation. Excuse the pun, but I smell a (lab) rat.

Uncle Ben

@Uncle Ben , Please explain why you feel them spiking the flowered material is ridiculous. What alternative method would you have used? Why do you feel there is an ulterior motive here? I think the spiking was to bring the toxins to analytical levels. The intent of the experiment wasn't that there ARE pesticides in marijuana , rather that when there are pesticide in the bud, regardless of the level, you will inhale it and get 70% of it in your lungs.The spiking was to get to measurable levels after the smoke was run through the 2 washing bottles filled with the methanol. An amplifier per se.

The message to me is that there is up to a 70% efficiency uptake of a presented pesticide possible when smoked and that cannabis has no approved pesticide application or residual maximum rates to go by at this time. If we are to call it "medicine" then we need to protect those that are immunocompromised, so we need regulation. I didn't read like you say "see, there it is right there, there's pesticides in cannabis!"

TheWerc Shop, Inc has sent testimony to the Michigan legislature suggesting them to take into consideration their findings purely in the interest of the medicinal marijuana smoker IMO, so I did not get the feeling these guys were up to something or to line their pockets or anything. Do you?
The Werk Shop website states "The Certified Cannabaceuticals™ program is designed to ensure quality and safety of medical cannabis products through the use of sophisticated analytical techniques and validated methods. We are intent on building a sustainable future and committed to conducting research on a wide variety of plant based medicines and sustainable products."

I think they may be on our side.

 

[Uncle Ben]

@Uncle Ben , Please explain why you feel them spiking the flowered material is ridiculous. What alternative method would you have used?

Are you serious? The fact that they added chemicals to cannabis flowers, ran the burnt vapor thru pipes and then said, "see, I told you so, it contains bifenthrin, diazinon, paclo, etc." isn't a bit of a total farce, passed off as some "scientific" study?

Reality check - you're an anti sugar freak. You add honey to your Cherrios. A lab has been called in to verify the fact that Post Cheerios does or does not add sugar to each box of Cheerios..... testing for residual sugar in the bowl as it's been deemed that sugar is harmful if you eat it. Tests come back positive for sugar. Conclusion - Cheerios contains too much sugar and is harmful to the public's health.

 

[BROBIE]

Are you serious? The fact that they added chemicals to cannabis flowers, ran the burnt vapor thru pipes and then said, "see, I told you so, it contains bifenthrin, diazinon, paclo, etc." isn't a bit of a total farce, passed off as some "scientific" study?

Reality check - you're an anti sugar freak. You add honey to your Cherrios. A lab has been called in to verify the fact that Post Cheerios does or does not add sugar to each box of Cheerios..... testing for residual sugar in the bowl as it's been deemed that sugar is harmful if you eat it. Tests come back positive for sugar. Conclusion - Cheerios contains too much sugar and is harmful to the public's health.

You're misconstruing the test and the conclusions. The test showed RECOVERY of a substance when smoked and the % of recovery. Nothing about what is normally in a MJ plant. The fact that this company is one of the biggest labs in Cali that test cannabis and is their life-blood, why would they want to bite the hand that feeds them? Quote where they state anything even remotely "see, I told you so." Please.

By this study, I can reasonably conclude that if I smoke 1g of bud with 3 ppm of toxin in it, I could expect to inhale 2 ppm of toxin (~70%). That is what they are saying. The spiking : It's like measuring voltage. How can I accurately show you a change of 1 volt to 2 volts when the voltmeter is at 100 scale. By amplifying what you are measuring, meaning take that 1 volt and amplify it by 20, you would have 20 volts. So you can measure a 20 volts to 40 volts swing (better accuracy). That's what they did.

The fact that the EPA's maximum tolerance of Permethrin for example in lettuce is 20 ppm (link below), if I ground it up and smoked it, according to the study, I could expect to inhale 14 PPM. I concur that since there are no standards for inhaled toxins as opposed to digesting the toxin (as explained in the text) one has no idea what he is SAFELY smoking. They make no claim as to what nominal levels of these toxins are within the average plant, just that by using current methods of delivery, one can conclude 70% of it will get in your lungs. Wouldn't you want to know if 20ppm of permethrin is in your medicine?

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=83069b26a25ab236b4ad5313e77f311e&node=se40.24.180_1378&rgn=div8

 

[King Arthur]

So I guess this topic lost sight of the OP's original intentions. But can someone tell me how stripping away a number of fan leaves actually help in any way.

I am stumped... it might be like breaking a kids leg and telling them to go skateboard.