• Here is a link to the full explanation: https://rollitup.org/t/welcome-back-did-you-try-turning-it-off-and-on-again.1104810/

Another Beheading

reasonevangelist

Well-Known Member
you must have me mistaken with someone who thinks we should get revenge..i don't..i think as an adult in this world you step outside the US..you take you life in your hands..don't expect to come back..now THAT'S reality.

we should embargo/boycott..issue no visas to ANYONE.. their respective asses and let the countries' leaders figure it out and get them under control.

it would be like having iran/iraq/syria deal with the KKK..it's our problem..they have theirs.

i don't care if gas is $20/gallon..fuck it!..we do everything virtually now anyway.
No, i wasn't implying "you" want revenge (nor would i blame anyone for feeling that way; i get it, it's natural... but i think we should try to eliminate revenge as a motivation, when/where possible/appropriate, even if that doesn't seem intuitive or natural to most people)... just attempting to show how such an expected and predictable reaction can be useful to those running the show.

My issue w/ any of the violent religious fanatics, is that they are inflicting harm upon others, based on fiction... which i find profoundly disturbing, and in which i find great difficulty in satisfactorily explaining why that is wrong.

Why is it fundamentally wrong to inflict harm upon someone else, using Fiction as the grounds for (false) justification?

What i (and many others) see as "utterly unjustifiable, unacceptable, untenable and atrocious," fanatical zealots see as "the only possible truth."

How can that be reconciled, when only one side (my side) is even willing to be reasonable?

People are animals, and you cannot force animals to be reasonable. When an animal lashes out and kills people... what other choices has it allowed you to choose? You can either physically intervene and prevent it from doing further harm, or you can refrain from intervention, knowingly allowing it to cause more and more harm until "something" stops it.

I don't like the scenario having been created which requires endorsement of lethal violence... but they, themselves, have chosen to remove reason and appropriate behavior, from the table of discussion.

Without reason, what remains? Perpetual bloodshed, until the last person willing to spill the blood of another, has perished.

Maybe if all the ultra-violent people kill each other, the world would become a better place for those who remain.

I don't know that ultra-violent people can or will become reasonable; i do know they will continue being violent, until something stops them... whether themselves or others.
 

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
No, i wasn't implying "you" want revenge (nor would i blame anyone for feeling that way; i get it, it's natural... but i think we should try to eliminate revenge as a motivation, when/where possible/appropriate, even if that doesn't seem intuitive or natural to most people)... just attempting to show how such an expected and predictable reaction can be useful to those running the show.

My issue w/ any of the violent religious fanatics, is that they are inflicting harm upon others, based on fiction... which i find profoundly disturbing, and in which i find great difficulty in satisfactorily explaining why that is wrong.

Why is it fundamentally wrong to inflict harm upon someone else, using Fiction as the grounds for (false) justification?

What i (and many others) see as "utterly unjustifiable, unacceptable, untenable and atrocious," fanatical zealots see as "the only possible truth."

How can that be reconciled, when only one side (my side) is even willing to be reasonable?

People are animals, and you cannot force animals to be reasonable. When an animal lashes out and kills people... what other choices has it allowed you to choose? You can either physically intervene and prevent it from doing further harm, or you can refrain from intervention, knowingly allowing it to cause more and more harm until "something" stops it.

I don't like the scenario having been created which requires endorsement of lethal violence... but they, themselves, have chosen to remove reason and appropriate behavior, from the table of discussion.

Without reason, what remains? Perpetual bloodshed, until the last person willing to spill the blood of another, has perished.

Maybe if all the ultra-violent people kill each other, the world would become a better place for those who remain.

I don't know that ultra-violent people can or will become reasonable; i do know they will continue being violent, until something stops them... whether themselves or others.

it's been my experience that those who "lash out and kill" in america..gets put down..wouldn't you say?
 

reasonevangelist

Well-Known Member
it's been my experience that those who "lash out and kill" in america..gets put down..wouldn't you say?
While my initial inclination is to agree...

If that were actually true, there would be no pro-cannabis arguments based on contrasting sentencing disparity of violent criminals and peaceful cannabis growers. People who grow cannabis sometimes (often?) do more time than violent offenders, even murderers. Some growers get murdered in their own homes by police.

So... yeah, sometimes, some people seem to just go feral and refuse to submit, leaving only the one other option...
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
No, i wasn't implying "you" want revenge (nor would i blame anyone for feeling that way; i get it, it's natural... but i think we should try to eliminate revenge as a motivation, when/where possible/appropriate, even if that doesn't seem intuitive or natural to most people)... just attempting to show how such an expected and predictable reaction can be useful to those running the show.

My issue w/ any of the violent religious fanatics, is that they are inflicting harm upon others, based on fiction... which i find profoundly disturbing, and in which i find great difficulty in satisfactorily explaining why that is wrong.

Why is it fundamentally wrong to inflict harm upon someone else, using Fiction as the grounds for (false) justification?

What i (and many others) see as "utterly unjustifiable, unacceptable, untenable and atrocious," fanatical zealots see as "the only possible truth."

How can that be reconciled, when only one side (my side) is even willing to be reasonable?

People are animals, and you cannot force animals to be reasonable. When an animal lashes out and kills people... what other choices has it allowed you to choose? You can either physically intervene and prevent it from doing further harm, or you can refrain from intervention, knowingly allowing it to cause more and more harm until "something" stops it.

I don't like the scenario having been created which requires endorsement of lethal violence... but they, themselves, have chosen to remove reason and appropriate behavior, from the table of discussion.

Without reason, what remains? Perpetual bloodshed, until the last person willing to spill the blood of another, has perished.

Maybe if all the ultra-violent people kill each other, the world would become a better place for those who remain.

I don't know that ultra-violent people can or will become reasonable; i do know they will continue being violent, until something stops them... whether themselves or others.
Hey bro. You know there is no beginning to martial affairs and no end possible until we get all to join the Matrix...

It is only a marketing dream, World Peace, thus a ponzi scheme to even think like that, I finally realized.

You make the mistake to think that all humans are equivalent to you. They cannot be. Charles Taylor's most bloody General Butt Naked, trained his young cannibals to fight naked and drink human blood, really, to believe the bullets could not harm them. Just another war cult, like all religions start. This was in 2005 however.

You simply have the luxury of hope for all mankind, That is laughable to most of this world.

It is luxury to think that since you and I can be trained like dogs and denied food to fight each other, Spartacus. That would only take a few weeks.

But, when women are allow their say, that all cools down. So, we must fight, not to kill them all. You can't. We must fight to educate the medieval minded and show the way of commerce not the sham power of mysogeny. We need the women able to read.

We must fight this or we will be plowed under by a domination of abomination for a 1000 years. This is what Gestapo did win. It is the, no shit, Poison Pill, well beyond Nukes.
 

reasonevangelist

Well-Known Member
Hey bro. You know there is no beginning to martial affairs and no end possible until we get all to join the Matrix...

It is only a marketing dream, World Peace, thus a ponzi scheme to even think like that, I finally realized.

You make the mistake to think that all humans are equivalent to you. They cannot be. Charles Taylor's most bloody General Butt Naked, trained his young cannibals to fight naked and drink human blood, really, to believe the bullets could not harm them. Just another war cult, like all religions start. This was in 2005 however.

You simply have the luxury of hope for all mankind, That is laughable to most of this world.

It is luxury to think that since you and I can be trained like dogs and denied food to fight each other, Spartacus. That would only take a few weeks.

But, when women are allow their say, that all cools down. So, we must fight, not to kill them all. You can't. We must fight to educate the medieval minded and show the way of commerce not the sham power of mysogeny. We need the women able to read.

We must fight this or we will be plowed under by a domination of abomination for a 1000 years. This is what Gestapo did win. It is the, no shit, Poison Pill, well beyond Nukes.
I had to teach myself to manufacture a type of hope i can consider worthwhile, in the absence of such hopes being granted. I try really hard not to lose that last shred of what i knowingly manufactured for myself as motivation to continue... because without it, i can't stand to even exist anymore.

I simply must hope, in my own largely hopeless way. The lack of any hope at all is just too much of a burden for me to carry anymore. I used to pride myself on being that hardcore, that i didn't need any type of "hope" at all (because none i've ever been given was worth holding, so i disdained all hope). At some point, i reached my limit, and my whole life stopped, and i had to figure out something to hope for, something to live for... or figure out that my life is really not worth living, which leads further down the path of self termination, which i somewhat superficially decided to avoid... for now. The exit is always there if i change my mind. Most days it takes all i am, just to... bear another day of this world. I had already reached my breaking point and decided to eliminate myself from this equation... but in my contemplative hesitation, i managed to identify a few things i still really wanted to do, and spent a long time and a lot of energy to change my mind again. Every day is a fight... and it seems like it's all conflict and strife, purely for their own sake... until i look at the reasons behind all this shit, at which point it becomes even more disgusting, because it's not just arbitrary natural conflict for no reason, it's freaking manufactured intentionally, engineered, by "powerful people," as part of strategies to produce their desired outcomes, and at the ultimate expense of so many others.

So, if you want to consider my hope a luxury, know that it's one i created for myself out of necessity. It's more of a crutch, IMO.

Honestly, i think world peace would happen naturally, if not for the interference and interventions intentionally created to foster profitable conflict.

The messed up part is that "domination of abomination for 1000 years" only really matters during the 50-80 years i exist to be part of this.

It's a noble gesture to care about what will happen in the future after we die... but many of us were born into a world created by people who apparently didn't care (or didn't mind) that we would suffer for it. So maybe the best gift we can give to the next generations, is to allow them to experience the huge goddamn mess we couldn't fix, which existed prior to our participation or arrival. Maybe through that endless and insurmountable struggle in sheer futility, they will encounter the opportunities to learn and embrace the value of life and suffering.

So, you know... maybe this time we should just do nothing, instead of more of the wrong things?

When i said "annihilate them," i didn't mean the discernibly innocent ones, or those willing to be reasonable. I mean those who are determined to kill until they are killed, based on their own brand of fiction. Fiction is not an acceptable justification for violence, i just don't know how to explain why it's wrong... especially to an audience who has already decided not to listen or be reasonable, in favor of extreme violence.

How do you get through to someone who is determined not to allow you to persuade or dissuade them from their crusade? Words are only as powerful as their audience allows.
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
In Honor There is Hope.Alaska Highway Patrol Motto

We can hope all we want to. We just have to know our enemy and know ourselves, as Sifu says.
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
Choose what you wish for wisely for it may come true.
We only "won" the first Cold War by massive incompetence on both sides.
We were 2 men with cigars sitting on the power kegs. We both stood back. But that is all that changed.

This time it won't be so easy.
 

reasonevangelist

Well-Known Member
In Honor There is Hope.Alaska Highway Patrol Motto

We can hope all we want to. We just have to know our enemy and know ourselves, as Sifu says.
A wise person once said to me: "wish in one hand, shit in the other; tell me which fills up first."

I equate wishing with hoping, though they aren't quite identical. I now try to avoid both. I regret expressing many of the wishes i've wished, and holding many of the hopes i've held (most of which i've since released). There's that... old wives' tale (i guess) about wishes only manifesting if you keep them to yourself. I tend to think of that as superstition, but sometimes i wonder... maybe there's a scientific explanation involving others either consciously or subconsciously sabotaging others' wishes (which they could only do if they knew those wishes).

I tend to reject most forms of hope, as i've seen most of them lead to disappointment (which is really about expectations formed based on hope)... and i tend to only hold hopes which retain their vigor under relentless scrutiny. I believe that "we can change the world," but that it would require the vast majority of "us" on the same page and cooperating... which i'm sure i don't have to say is unlikely, as long as certain divisive barriers to "unity" remain in place.

I also have mixed feelings about "honor." I tend to think of it idealistically as mostly a good thing; something to be respected and revered... but sometimes the inability to bypass the sometimes unrealistic requirements of honor, creates a dangerous disadvantage, when any opponent is not bound by the same honor code; or any at all.


I just had an interesting thought: "know thy enemy and thyself" has an interesting (and disturbing) connection to this quote:

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
Bravo on the Nietzsche.

An honor code is something I assign myself. Duty is what I do, in any case.

There is a simplicity I aim for.

"I can wait. I can think. I can fast."
says Siddhartha, by Herman Hess

"Be Here Now"
Ram Das

"Know Self"
anon

"Joy from Knowing"
Doer
 
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