Wisconsin Revolt

negative. when looking at comparable levels of experience and education the private sector outpays the public sector accross the board.

there is a proportionately larger number of bachelor's or master's level education workers in the public sector, when compared to the private... that's why government workers appear to be better paid, it's because they tend to be better educated and have more experience, when proportionately compared to the private sector. government isn't just the idiots at the DMV, stop pretending.

ignore the facts. Unionized labor rose and the united states became the best nation in the world because of it, not in spite of it.

and maternity leave is a HEALTH ISSUE. typical right-wing, brain-dead reasoning. let's ignore the human side of the issue because money is god. fuck the corporate elites that tell me that 6 weeks is too long. their wives surely took more than 6 weeks to care for their kids, and probably had a few nannies and a personal nurse on site...... EVERY HUMAN DESERVES THE SAME RESPECT, EVEN THE JANITORS CLEANING THE SHIT OFF THE SIDE OF THE TOILETS EVERY NIGHT.

I take issue with the options listed in the poll question. I support the people of Wisconsin, which is why I support Gov. Walker. Anybody actually taking the time to read the facts can see they are not going after "the people" of Wisconsin, just the PUBLIC UNIONS. And even with this passing, the PUBLIC UNIONS still retain more collective bargaining rights than all of the Federal workers under Oblah-blah. Which is why he had to quickly shut his trap on the subject.

Once all this is passed and implemented, people will be able to teach and DECIDE if they want to join the union. Union dues will not be collected by the government and immediately put in the coffers of the Democrats. The people of Wisconsin will also see that the schools don't crumble, giant holes don't open up on the earth's crust and swallow them all, just because PUBLIC UNIONS can't hold them hostage any longer. There will be bad blood for a while, some heads will most likely roll (defiant teachers that probably needed to go anyways) and they will EASILY be replaced by the thousands and thousands of unemployed teachers in this country that would LOVE to work for the salaries and benefits that are being offered in Wisconsin.

Johnnyorganic said:

How many children were schoolteachers before the glorious, heroic unions spared them from such drudgery?

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Really thats your first point that fact that children were not school teachers ( try mine workers)
Union organizing and child labor reform were often intertwined in U.S. history, with
organization’s like the “National Consumers League” and the National
Child Labor Committee” together working in the early 20th century to ban
child labor. The very first American Federation of Labor (AFL) national
convention passed “a resolution calling on states to keep children under 14 from ALL gainful employment

I will wait for your reply on this very first argument that you so poorly brought forth..If you agree that I'm right then we can move on to your next point...Just want to make sure NO ON is confuse with our debate...oops almost forgot my link.. http://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/about/us_history.html

Don't understand why the union members are so mad. They still have all those hundreds of millions of dollars in their union funds??? They just don't have the tax payer by the balls any more.

lolwut? the republicans passed the bill for Wisconsin. They created a committee then passed the bill. where is the democracy in this country

This will not be the end for Unions, just a limit to their power over the working people who pay their wages and benefits.

The Union stated after they started their protests that they would go for the other changes to the amount they contribute to their pension, and health insurance, so the whole issue is the fact that they can no longer demand unlimited pay raises above the actuall increase in the cost of living without taking it to the voters.

Most employers want a say in what their employees are paid - what is the problem?

angelsbandit said:

This will not be the end for Unions, just a limit to their power over the working people who pay their wages and benefits.

The Union stated after they started their protests that they would go for the other changes to the amount they contribute to their pension, and health insurance, so the whole issue is the fact that they can no longer demand unlimited pay raises above the actuall increase in the cost of living without taking it to the voters.

Most employers want a say in what their employees are paid - what is the problem?

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It looks like its more of a political issue than what we are arguing for, the unions make contributions to the democratic party (go figure, who is going to voice for them, them as in people). Its an attack to stop that funding. Its happing across america.

londonfog said:

Really thats your first point that fact that children were not school teachers ( try mine workers)
Union organizing and child labor reform were often intertwined in U.S. history, with
organization’s like the “National Consumers League” and the National
Child Labor Committee” together working in the early 20th century to ban
child labor. The very first American Federation of Labor (AFL) national
convention passed “a resolution calling on states to keep children under 14 from ALL gainful employment

I will wait for your reply on this very first argument that you so poorly brought forth..If you agree that I'm right then we can move on to your next point...Just want to make sure NO ON is confuse with our debate...oops almost forgot my link.. http://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/about/us_history.html

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I never denied the existence of child labor.

I made the point to distinguish between public employee unions and corporate unions. A distinction which apparently evades you.

Government employees do not, with the exception of firefighters and police, face inherently dangerous work conditions. Government bureaucrats have the same government watching their backs that they elect and work for. The work rules which unions have a say in are overkill because a government job is a pretty cushy gig from the get-go. This overkill feeds the waste and corruption which is inherent in government bureaucracy.

secretweapon said:

lolwut? the republicans passed the bill for Wisconsin. They created a committee then passed the bill. where is the democracy in this country

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It ran off to Illinois like a scared little girl.

The U.S. was not founded as a Democracy, FYI.

Johnnyorganic said:

I never denied the existence of child labor.

I made the point to distinguish between public employee unions and corporate unions. A distinction which apparently evades you.

Government employees do not, with the exception of firefighters and police, face inherently dangerous work conditions. Government bureaucrats have the same government watching their backs that they elect and work for. The work rules which unions have a say in are overkill because a government job is a pretty cushy gig from the get-go. This overkill feeds the waste and corruption which is inherent in government bureaucracy.

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Please do explain how a teachers job is so cushy. sounds like another OPINION to me ...I thought we had an underlaying agreement to stick with facts.. FOUL...free word play for me..

Teachers’ Unions, just like all other workplace unions, are designed to protect the
employees (in this case the teachers) from unfair treatment in schools. The unions make
sure the school administration conducts itself according to the current contract that the
teachers are working under. Each school’s union is connected to a larger union that either
operates on a state level or on a national level. If needed, the larger union will get​

involved to help protect a teacher’s (or many teachers&#8217 rights..

ok free word play over...Now please stick with facts .....and for the record both Private and Public unions can and will do the same..PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF WORKER...and my case in point was to show that UNIONS HELPED AGAINST CHILD LABOR...now do you agree that Unions helped in that part of American History...I would like to go on to the next point..so just say yes

londonfog said:

Please do explain how a teachers job is so cushy. sounds like another OPINION to me ...I thought we had an underlaying agreement to stick with facts.. FOUL...free word play for me..

Teachers’ Unions, just like all other workplace unions, are designed to protect the
employees (in this case the teachers) from unfair treatment in schools. The unions make
sure the school administration conducts itself according to the current contract that the
teachers are working under. Each school’s union is connected to a larger union that either
operates on a state level or on a national level. If needed, the larger union will get​

involved to help protect a teacher’s (or many teachers’) rights..

ok free word play over...Now please stick with facts .....and for the record both Private and Public unions can and will do the same..PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF WORKER...and my case in point was to show that UNIONS HELPED AGAINST CHILD LABOR...now do you agree that Unions helped in that part of American History...I would like to go on to the next point..so just say yes

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Being paid to be a glorified babysitter is akin to working in a coal mine.

Got it.

I will agree that the AFL approved the resolution you stated, but....

I put forth that it was not so much to protect the precious children so much as to remove them from the workplace; thus making room for more dues-paying goons.

How do you like that?

Rob Roy said:

I smoked Dope with John Boy and Grand pa out behind the barn at Walton's mountain.

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20 some odd years ago, I went to a BBQ at Sam Waltons home. I played with his dog. We joked together about his Dog living on long after he was gone (Ol Roy) He was a good guy.

londonfog said:

Case in point...here we have someone that states alot but with zero facts..just opinions...I know its hard to use facts when you have a pointless argurment but please try...any links to prove your points (opinions) if not then .............PEOPLE LETS USE FACTS IN WHAT YOU SAY....

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1.Unions Helped End Child Labor

2.Unions Gave Us Fair Wages And Relative Income Equality

3.Unions Won Widespread Employer-Based Health Coverage

4.Unions Spearheaded The Fight For The Family And Medical Leave Act

5.Unions Gave Us The Weekend

I will keep the list short in case anyone wants to argue my point...Too many things might confuse you..


Well, you realize that you didn't offer any more proof than the person you just berated, just bullet points which are debatable. You just listed things without any evidence. Unions had their day when they were necessary, just like the rebellion made sense in the 1700s. Things change and what is needed changes also. What you are saying is "100 years ago Unions helped do these things" That is true more or less, and 100 years ago Unions were needed. Welcome to 2011 - its over.

Carthoris said:

1.Unions Helped End Child Labor

2.Unions Gave Us Fair Wages And Relative Income Equality

3.Unions Won Widespread Employer-Based Health Coverage

4.Unions Spearheaded The Fight For The Family And Medical Leave Act

5.Unions Gave Us The Weekend

I will keep the list short in case anyone wants to argue my point...Too many things might confuse you..


Well, you realize that you didn't offer any more proof than the person you just berated, just bullet points which are debatable. You just listed things without any evidence. Unions had their day when they were necessary, just like the rebellion made sense in the 1700s. Things change and what is needed changes also. What you are saying is "100 years ago Unions helped do these things" That is true more or less, and 100 years ago Unions were needed. Welcome to 2011 - its over.

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Thats what me and Johnny O are now debating so please let the men talk and you will see every point will be covered...

secretweapon said:

lolwut? the republicans passed the bill for Wisconsin. They created a committee then passed the bill. where is the democracy in this country

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If the democrats showed up to work they would of passed the bill anyway. What the democrats did was immoral. They went out of their way to stop democracy. It wouldn't be much different if they burned the state's building down. Maybe they should of passed a bill where anyone who misses too many days of work gets fired and replaced by the Gov.

secretweapon said:

It looks like its more of a political issue than what we are arguing for, the unions make contributions to the democratic party (go figure, who is going to voice for them, them as in people). Its an attack to stop that funding. Its happing across america.

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Why do you think it is OK for a Union for government workers to be funding democrats with dues from the workers? All the workers aren't democrats.

londonfog said:

Please do explain how a teachers job is so cushy. sounds like another OPINION to me ...I thought we had an underlaying agreement to stick with facts.. FOUL...free word play for me..

Teachers’ Unions, just like all other workplace unions, are designed to protect the
employees (in this case the teachers) from unfair treatment in schools. The unions make
sure the school administration conducts itself according to the current contract that the
teachers are working under. Each school’s union is connected to a larger union that either
operates on a state level or on a national level. If needed, the larger union will get​

involved to help protect a teacher’s (or many teachers’) rights..

ok free word play over...Now please stick with facts .....and for the record both Private and Public unions can and will do the same..PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF WORKER...and my case in point was to show that UNIONS HELPED AGAINST CHILD LABOR...now do you agree that Unions helped in that part of American History...I would like to go on to the next point..so just say yes

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Saying that Unions helped against child labor when applied to this situation is akin to me saying that blowing up factories helps our economy.

While some private unions made great contributions to changing work for the better in the US, there were no public unions then and they are what we are discussing. Blowing up all the factories in the world is the real reason America was awesome for the years after WW2, but that doesn't mean that every factory that explodes anywhere makes America better. You are using proof of something being good that does not apply to the topic.

londonfog said:

Thats what me and Johnny O are now debating so please let the men talk and you will see every point will be covered...

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Pfft, you are as much of a man as Ru Paul.

Johnnyorganic said:

Being paid to be a glorified babysitter

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DO you really view teachers as glorified babysitter..If so I really feel I peg you wrong..Question did you teach yourself how to read and write..????or did your babysitter...or did your mother ????? do you understand Algebra????What about Chemistry...???? did you learn all this on your own??? or do you not know these things...hmmmmm should I even really continue...just say "you right" and I can move on....

Carthoris said:

Pfft, you are as much of a man as Ru Paul.

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Wow thats the best you can do....????Why you watching Ru Paul???