Wisconsin Revolt

Johnnyorganic said:

I can't substantiate your number either way. Perhaps you would like to source it to salvage your credibility.

But, for the sake of argument, lets use it.

The latest census data for the State of Wisconsin puts the population at just under 5.7 million.
http://www.wisn.com/r/26213332/detail.html

Which means that roughly 1.75% of the population was outraged enough to go to the state capitol and behave like toddlers who had their pacifiers taken away.

Forget about the source...

and your credibility.

BUAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

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0.0175 * 5,700,000 = 99,750

99,750 =/= 10,000

forget about your mathematical aptitude, let's just put the rough numbers into perspective...

40,000 expected. 5,700,000 population. 40,000/5,700,000 = 0.7% of the total population protesting.

egypt has roughly 80,000,000 million citizens.

80,000,000 x .007 = 560,000

rough estimates of the protests in cairo put it at about 2 million protesters, probably not all at once though.

if it only takes 2 million out of 80 million (2.5%) to overthrow a dictator, surely 0.7% of the population of one state should be enough to at least get their voices heard.

your grudge against unions is unparalleled, johnny. but you are wrong here.

this IS about quality of education. would the more logical thing for these teachers be to stay in class and teach as incentives for good teachers gradually vanish?

if you think scraping a few pennies off the backs of teachers is a smart investment move, here is my salute to you:

Carne Seca said:

...what were the Unions demanding that prompted this bill? Not the protests, but the bill itself. What were they demanding? In what Bill? What legislation? How were they being "thugs?"

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they were demanding what they always demand, more. it's always about more. though i can't speak for wisconsin's dilemma, we here in california find ourselves with $500 billion in unfunded pension liabilities because of public sector union demands. who is it you think these demands are being made on? it's the people themselves, who have no recourse or true say in the matter. these unions represent largely semi-skilled workers in industries where there is no private sector alternative. we are taxed into oblivion to support our failing public school system, so private schooling simply isn't an option for most, and there is no non-union alternative for any of the other public services that these workers provide in the most mediocre fashion. when their contracts are negotiated, the people have no choice but to accede to their demands or face a complete shut down of public services. each round of "negotiations" resembles extortion more than anything else. there is no give and take, only take.

the myth of the poor altruistic, underpaid teacher has become a sad joke. with pay schedules predicated not on merit but on mere survival and pension packages who's percentages rival the golden parachutes of fortune 500 executives, they garner all the rewards of educating our nation's youth, but bear none of the responsibility. thanks to the most powerful unions in the country, it is nearly impossible to eliminate any of these workers. no matter how shoddily they may perform, they are protected by a monopoly that is enforced by the government, operating at the whim of these corrupt unions. while the private sector endures a 10% "official" unemployment rate (the real rate is much higher) and wages are forced lower and lower, the public sector continues to grow and enjoy ever increasing perks.

it's time to stop living in the first half of the last century, when robber barons still ruled over labor with an iron hand. the tables have turned, labor has become the abuser and the public sector unions are the worst of these offenders. while the private sector must bend with the economic winds, public employees seem to feel that they are immune to the country's financial woes and the taxpayers are finally waking up to just how much it is costing them. take a look at those who are doing all the protesting. it's almost exclusively non-taxpayers, students for the most part, and those who are suckling at the public teat. many of the same people who scream bloody murder at private sector companies fulfilling their contractual obligations to their employees are demanding that our nearly bankrupt government not only abide by contracts that are the product of nothing short of extortion, but continue to provide all those perks to the new hires of our constantly expanding, taxpayer supported public employees. we simply can't afford to turn janitors and babysitters into the idle rich.

this isnt about if teachers get paid too much, its about scott walker and him refusing to negotiate with the unions and taking away the rights of all unions to talk about changes being made to their healthcare and retirement,well, besides the ones that backed him(who have since turned on him). corruption is the problem and the cause of this protest and anger.

You're using generalizations. This is a specific issue. They weren't ASKING for anything. This came out of the blue. They just took a huge cut to help out. It's not about the money. It's about losing their rights as employees to address employer abuse and to voice complaints. What MORE were they asking for that prompted this? Everyone keeps giving vague generalizations and uses it as an opportunity to union bash.

My niece is a teacher. she has been teaching for 10 years. Why? Because she loves it. THE JOB. Not the benefits or the pay. Which by the way, is barely over the poverty line. They match the pension packages of fortune 500 Executives? And you expect us to take that seriously?

So you're saying that they are equal to the CEO of Comcast. He is getting paid millions of dollars for five years after his death. His estate will get the money. He will be paid 75 million dollars after he has died. Is this the comparison you TRULY wish to draw? Maybe you want to rethink that a bit.

Oh and most of the people protesting are teachers, nurses, police, firemen, municipal employees, state workers, etc.. These are all hard working folks that only wish to keep their employee rights.

darkdestruction420 said:

this about their right to negotiate, not wether or not they will pay more into their pension and healthcare itself. they want to negotiate.......

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Should the people being forced to fund the teachers involuntarily have the opportunity to negotiate too?

What the hell....IT IS NOT ABOUT TEACHERS. Can you really not see that? This covers all public unions in this state, yes teachers, but also any construction crews working on state projects, ALL stste workers except the three exempted unions. Even the Green Bay packers are publicly owned and are union.
And it is not about the pay....Stop listening to the rightwingers.
I live down the street from the capitol, and I can tell you it is not a small crowd and I drove through at 3:30am and it was people walking to the capitol. You are a fool to think Walker will be able to stand his ground. He doesn't even know what he is doing except carrying out the orders from above.
This issue came up with Walkers Budget repair bill. Why is taking worker rights away in the budget bill? Because he wanted to fast track this right on through. Whoever said it is about the next election and busting the union is right and must have listened to Rachel Maddow.
All you who are against this are against your neighbors. Do you hate all that are union, and who Glenn Beck and Rush tell you to hate?
Walker is on his way out almost two months into his term.

Unions can be good for the workers as long as they don't grow to demanding and bled a company dry. I say yes we do need them but union members must always understand what they are fighting for and if it is a reasonable demand..in the case of Wisconsin I support the people all the way...these folk have taken wage freezes. unpaid furlough days WTF now you want to take away the right to negotiate on changes to their health care or retirement benefits..WTF..and why are the police and fire unions not included in this...is it because they supported his campaign ( Walker )..

The only people bleeding companies dry are the CEO's The salaries they pull in are insane. More money than they can spend in a lifetime. The union bashing propaganda has been around since the fifties. It's a well oiled machine. They even have seminars on union busting and how to sabotage union organizing. I experienced this in Utah many years back. It's ugly. Now they are stripping worker rights to place even more burdens on the middle class. This isn't just happening in Wisconsin. It's going on all over the nation. Even here in New Mexico. People need to wake up and see what's going on here.

Carne Seca said:

The only people bleeding companies dry are the CEO's The salaries they pull in are insane. More money than they can spend in a lifetime. The union bashing propaganda has been around since the fifties. It's a well oiled machine. They even have seminars on union busting and how to sabotage union organizing. I experienced this in Utah many years back. It's ugly. Now they are stripping worker rights to place even more burdens on the middle class. This isn't just happening in Wisconsin. It's going on all over the nation. Even here in New Mexico. People need to wake up and see what's going on here.

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Don't get me wrong you and I agree...but I have seen a case ( Aerospace )where the union request would have made the company go under....think about our auto industry ( GM) the UAW worked a sweet deal for its people in terms of contracts, but with sales dropping and increased production expenses combined with the Union contract obligations this company started to see instability and profit loss...ok now after saying that I do think CEO can make way to much ...just not in this case..Unions members must always remember what the fight is for and make sure the fight is not unreasonable....The fight in Wisconsin is a good fight and the people will win

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come across as combative. I was a little too passionate about the gross disparity regarding wages. I just chaps my ass that CEO's pull down that kind of money to the detriment of the company. Corporations cut more and more worker benefits, perks, hours, salaries to help pay the CEO's millions and millions of dollars.

I just watched Walker's response to this. Not going to quote, be said something on the order of, workers will be happy not having to pay money to the union. He just flippen' said it in the classic neo-con. roundabout, read through the lines,and double talk.
He just said there will be no union to pay the dues to!

Fuck the union bastards fire the assholes fine the damn union halls for not having people on the job. The damn half breed muslim bastard in the WH wants a 100 billion of our tax dollars for education. Education my ass the mother fucker wants to get reelected and he knows that the unions will give it back to him to buy votes. the bastard wants his NWO and he don't care who he fucks to get it.

Union is trying to BREAK the great people of Wis. Its a shame. they are being asked to pay for 12% of there healthcare. I would LOVE to only have to pay 12% of my healthcare. Come on the state is broke. unions are gonna ruin our country.

Carne Seca said:

You're using generalizations. This is a specific issue. They weren't ASKING for anything. This came out of the blue. They just took a huge cut to help out. It's not about the money. It's about losing their rights as employees to address employer abuse and to voice complaints. What MORE were they asking for that prompted this? Everyone keeps giving vague generalizations and uses it as an opportunity to union bash.

My niece is a teacher. she has been teaching for 10 years. Why? Because she loves it. THE JOB. Not the benefits or the pay. Which by the way, is barely over the poverty line. They match the pension packages of fortune 500 Executives? And you expect us to take that seriously?

So you're saying that they are equal to the CEO of Comcast. He is getting paid millions of dollars for five years after his death. His estate will get the money. He will be paid 75 million dollars after he has died. Is this the comparison you TRULY wish to draw? Maybe you want to rethink that a bit.

Oh and most of the people protesting are teachers, nurses, police, firemen, municipal employees, state workers, etc.. These are all hard working folks that only wish to keep their employee rights.

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Can we at least discuss the difference in public paid jobs(tax payers money) and private paid jobs(self payed jobs)? Thank you

It's really nice to see that so many of you really understand that it is the unions who are at fault here. Look at what happened to all the car companies. Unions are the absolute reason they went under and it is high time that their stranglehold on American workers be eliminated. Unions suck. The person who said lets stop acting like this is the first half of the 20th century was completely on the money. There is really no need for giant unions and their ridiculous demands. I was in a union and it did absolutely NOTHING for me but take my money against my will every paycheck. We all knew it was a joke, and being in the union was MANDATORY if you wanted to work there.

There is absolute truth to the fact that CEOs make way too much money to the detriment of the company, but unions are not champion of the working man, like they used to be a very long time ago. Thinking that way is foolish and counterproductive. Things need to change for the good of everyone, and that bill is simply about getting people to pay their fair share. Skip the damn union dues and contribute to your own health care. It's not a lot to ask. I would imagine those people protesting, the majority are being bussed in by Democratic activists trying to drum up a story for the press. It's all a joke. The legislature needs to be left to do its job.

mastertow said:

What the hell....IT IS NOT ABOUT TEACHERS. Can you really not see that? This covers all public unions in this state, yes teachers, but also any construction crews working on state projects, ALL stste workers except the three exempted unions. Even the Green Bay packers are publicly owned and are union.
And it is not about the pay....Stop listening to the rightwingers.
I live down the street from the capitol, and I can tell you it is not a small crowd and I drove through at 3:30am and it was people walking to the capitol. You are a fool to think Walker will be able to stand his ground. He doesn't even know what he is doing except carrying out the orders from above.
This issue came up with Walkers Budget repair bill. Why is taking worker rights away in the budget bill? Because he wanted to fast track this right on through. Whoever said it is about the next election and busting the union is right and must have listened to Rachel Maddow.
All you who are against this are against your neighbors. Do you hate all that are union, and who Glenn Beck and Rush tell you to hate?
Walker is on his way out almost two months into his term.

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What "rights" should the people that are forced to fund public servants etc. be? Should they be able to object to being forced to make payments against their will for something they may not want, didn't ask for or don't use?

Where is your justification for a system that relies on forced redistribution?

Public sector workers need to realize they work for the tax payer not the union. What happens when the unions kill the host?

Someone said teachers don’t make much money. That’s bullshit. They only work 9 months a year. They have some of the best benefit packages in the country.The teachers in my state get 2 vacation days and 1 sick day every month. Those days are allowed to accumulate year after year. I’ve known teachers who have taken 1 year vacations. You wouldn't have a job left in the private sector. When I was in school one teacher had 3 years built up and took it all. So 3 years before he actually retired he retired.


Since the unions were so great for the education system America we must have the best education system in the world. I’m pretty sure that’s not the case. But unions are not the only problems with our education system so all the blame doesn’t fall on the teachers.

BudMcLovin said:

Public sector workers need to realize they work for the tax payer not the union. What happens when the unions kill the host?

Someone said teachers don’t make much money. That’s bullshit. They only work 9 months a year. They have some of the best benefit packages in the country.The teachers in my state get 2 vacation days and 1 sick day every month. Those days are allowed to accumulate year after year. I’ve known teachers who have taken 1 year vacations. You wouldn't have a job left in the private sector. When I was in school one teacher had 3 years built up and took it all. So 3 years before he actually retired he retired.


Since the unions were so great for the education system America we must have the best education system in the world. I’m pretty sure that’s not the case. But unions are not the only problems with our education system so all the blame doesn’t fall on the teachers.

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Do you really think teachers only work 9 months a year? I know for sure that most work far more than that. EVEN IF this was just about teacher pay, having the teachers soley bear the burden of budget shortfalls is lame. What if it was just you chosen employment path that was singled out for benefit, pay reduction, and bargaining elimination?
pssssttt.......most teachers do not get paid for 12 months.

I know why Walker and the conservatives want this passed but why do you want to shit on your neighbor?

JEALOUSY! I don't know for sure but I cannot think of any other reason.

"I don't get a voice so neither do you."

I think this might be a race to the bottom.