What If ObamaCare is Found Constitutional

SisterMaryElephant

Active Member
UB:
Ron "the bigot" Paul who?

Regardless of the 36 pages that I skipped, it was found to be a tax, despite liberal lies, and upheld so the next step is still repeal. Simple.
 

InCognition

Active Member
I see you are stuck in the "they are taking from me and giving to someone else" mode and you have repeated yourself several times without addressing the crux of the argument I bring you. I will not argue that all taxes are good, nor will I argue that all taxes are indeed taxes as we commonly understand them but I will repeat what you seem to be ignoring. We pay for order, we are taxed that we perpetuate order. Order means many things and sometimes it means that some people get money that you and I don't think deserve it but even that is not theft and repeating it over and over again, lamenting that you are being taken advantage of even though you experience the benifits of this order that we all pay for, changes nothing.
I understand that we "pay for order". That's a very broad generalization of the point I'm trying to make though.

And, of course I'm experiencing the benefits of the order we pay for, but that does not justify further taxation on the premise of "order", especially when those further taxes are founded on a subject that's heavily influenced off personal responsibility. When one is convinced that a tax is for the "good of all" without really looking into the core fundamentals, ethics, logic, reasoning, and philosophy behind that tax, that is when one is oblivious. The government uses this obliviousness to pass further taxes on the premise of order, even when these new taxes are entirely unethical at their core.

Then again there are plenty of other taxes that reward lack of personal responsibility in this country, so more taxes of the same, is just more icing on the cake to many people of this country.

Lastly, you're correct in stating that it changes nothing when I state that I'm being taken advantage of, even while experiencing the benefits of "order". The rich can state the same thing, and nothing will change either. The fact remains that those who have more, will always be viewed as the piggy banks that subsidize irresponsibility and/or lack of luck in this country, which is an entirely unethical viewpoint regardless of the direction in which it's viewed.

Beyond my purely philosophical views, as to why the healthcare mandate is completely unethical, it's also unethical for the government to establish such a mandate in which they have absolutely no clue as to the cost figures involved. The cost is a complete X-factor in which the government is entirely aware of. It's one of the largest gambles in history, and the government has no right in doing so, on their flawed premise of "health care equality"... especially during a time where this country can not afford to make further gambles.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
I understand that we "pay for order". That's a very broad generalization of the point I'm trying to make though.

And, of course I'm experiencing the benefits of the order we pay for, but that does not justify further taxation on the premise of "order", especially when those further taxes are founded on a subject that's heavily influenced off personal responsibility. When one is convinced that a tax is for the "good of all" without really looking into the core fundamentals, ethics, logic, reasoning, and philosophy behind that tax, that is when one is oblivious. The government uses this obliviousness to pass further taxes on the premise of order, even when these new taxes are entirely unethical at their core.

Then again there are plenty of other taxes that reward lack of personal responsibility in this country, so more taxes of the same, is just more icing on the cake to many people of this country.

Lastly, you're correct in stating that it changes nothing when I state that I'm being taken advantage of, even while experiencing the benefits of "order". The rich can state the same thing, and nothing will change either. The fact remains that those who have more, will always be viewed as the piggy banks that subsidize irresponsibility and/or lack of luck in this country, which is an entirely unethical viewpoint regardless of the direction in which it's viewed.

Beyond my purely philosophical views, as to why the healthcare mandate is completely unethical, it's also unethical for the government to establish such a mandate in which they have absolutely no clue as to the cost figures involved. The cost is a complete X-factor in which the government is entirely aware of. It's one of the largest gambles in history, and the government has no right in doing so, on their flawed premise of "health care equality"... especially during a time where this country can not afford to make further gambles.
It does indeed justify further taxation on the premise of order - order is a moving target that has different requirements from one decade to the next. When it is found that old people are no longer being taken care of by the community or by family for a host of cultural and scientific reasons, then order comprises social security and medicare. When it is found that people are getting into accidents because they are talking on their cellphones while driving then order involves new laws that folks in the past wouldn't be able to comprehend.

Now we cannot penalize lack of personal responsibility in this country in many respects. Simply stating "you should have" is not a way to preserve order. Telling a man who has lung cancer "you shouldn't have smoked" makes no real difference to the burden that man now places upon society. If we want to adapt to that evenuality then we will have to ban tobacco - this is said by many to be curtailing the rights of the individuals. there is a balance here between a person's right to do as he pleases and the burden he places on society by actually doing as he pleases. The end result is that we all pay the real costs of those liberties - in taxes.


But we can cut to the core of this with a simple question. There is a law, I don't know the details actually but will look for it, that says that no hospital may turn a needy patient away simply on account of that person's inability to pay. Do you support that ruling/law?
 

InCognition

Active Member
It does indeed justify further taxation on the premise of order - order is a moving target that has different requirements from one decade to the next. When it is found that old people are no longer being taken care of by the community or by family for a host of cultural and scientific reasons, then order comprises social security and medicare. When it is found that people are getting into accidents because they are talking on their cellphones while driving then order involves new laws that folks in the past wouldn't be able to comprehend.
If everyone starting running around ape shit, on drugs for the next decade, just because they knew they would be taken care of when they bankrupt themselves, and then proceeded to land themselves in a hospital from health complications... a tax on everyone including those who didn't run around ape shit on drugs for that same time frame, to cover such a situation, would not be justified on the basis of keeping such situation "orderly". Of course this is an extreme comparison but the fundamental ethics behind such a tax in this situation, illustrates why such a tax is not "justified" on the premise of order.

Now we cannot penalize lack of personal responsibility in this country in many respects. Simply stating "you should have" is not a way to preserve order. Telling a man who has lung cancer "you shouldn't have smoked" makes no real difference to the burden that man now places upon society. If we want to adapt to that evenuality then we will have to ban tobacco - this is said by many to be curtailing the rights of the individuals. there is a balance here between a person's right to do as he pleases and the burden he places on society by actually doing as he pleases. The end result is that we all pay the real costs of those liberties - in taxes.
That is the problem, we should penalize lack of personal responsibility. The problem in not penalizing lack of personal responsibility, and instead penalizing everyone, or just those who are responsible, is that it's absolutely bat-shit insane.

That man with lung cancer places a burden on society, because many people in society think it's barbaric and unethical to tell that guy to "fuck off and handle his problem". While it's may be unethical in one sense to tell this, to a man with lung cancer, it's more unethical to financially burden everyone, in order to cover this man's health issue, due to lack of personal irresponsibility. Not only did he spend his money on what caused him cancer, but may not have money to cover the financial burden in such a situation, which completely justifies a penalization regarding that person's lack of responsibility. It's surely not everyone else's obligation to save that person either financially or physically.

And you're correct, you do not ban tobacco. That is surely curtailing personal freedom. Do you want to know what else is a curtail on personal freedom though? When people are forced to pay more money, on order to fund the idiot's hospital bill, who blew their medical expense money on tobacco, and thus can't take responsibility for their own situation.

What you do do, is make people who smoke tobacco take care of their own set of personal responsibilities regarding such a prerogative. That's how you solve that simple little problem.

But we can cut to the core of this with a simple question. There is a law, I don't know the details actually but will look for it, that says that no hospital may turn a needy patient away simply on account of that person's inability to pay. Do you support that ruling/law?
No I do not support such asinine logic. Beyond such logic being just bat-shit insane, it's also incredibly unethical for such an enforcement to exist.

Medical service is just that, a service. The same way a mechanic repairs your car, a doctor repairs your body. There is really no difference from a business standpoint.

The doctor has student loans to pay, his home, his vehicle, and possibly children, all in which require money in order to maintain. As soon as you force someone, especially someone with the financial obligations of a doctor, to take a monetary loss, on the premise than an individual "needs" medical attention, you've stepped over the line of absolute-hypocrisy.

It's nothing more than a flawed logic to think that an individual is obligated in taking a monetary loss, for the sake of another's physical continuity or profit.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
I understand that we "pay for order". That's a very broad generalization of the point I'm trying to make though.

And, of course I'm experiencing the benefits of the order we pay for, but that does not justify further taxation on the premise of "order", especially when those further taxes are founded on a subject that's heavily influenced off personal responsibility. When one is convinced that a tax is for the "good of all" without really looking into the core fundamentals, ethics, logic, reasoning, and philosophy behind that tax, that is when one is oblivious. The government uses this obliviousness to pass further taxes on the premise of order, even when these new taxes are entirely unethical at their core.

Then again there are plenty of other taxes that reward lack of personal responsibility in this country, so more taxes of the same, is just more icing on the cake to many people of this country.

Lastly, you're correct in stating that it changes nothing when I state that I'm being taken advantage of, even while experiencing the benefits of "order". The rich can state the same thing, and nothing will change either. The fact remains that those who have more, will always be viewed as the piggy banks that subsidize irresponsibility and/or lack of luck in this country, which is an entirely unethical viewpoint regardless of the direction in which it's viewed.

Beyond my purely philosophical views, as to why the healthcare mandate is completely unethical, it's also unethical for the government to establish such a mandate in which they have absolutely no clue as to the cost figures involved. The cost is a complete X-factor in which the government is entirely aware of. It's one of the largest gambles in history, and the government has no right in doing so, on their flawed premise of "health care equality"... especially during a time where this country can not afford to make further gambles.

Your state have mandatory car insurance for drivers?
 

InCognition

Active Member
Your state have mandatory car insurance for drivers?
Car insurance on a motor vehicle, driving on a publicly funded road, is in no way, shape, or form comparable to that of the human body and the way's in which it can be neglected through personal irresponsibility.

Such comparisons makes me laugh. If you could logically compare both, please do so... I'm all ears open.


Should we have mandated auto-parts insurance as well? We all know everyone has a problem with their car sometime in life... I guess it's just not fair when your car breaks down, so a mandate will make it fair!
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
If everyone starting running around ape shit, on drugs for the next decade, just because they knew they would be taken care of when they bankrupt themselves, and then proceeded to land themselves in a hospital from health complications... a tax on everyone including those who didn't run around ape shit on drugs for that same time frame, to cover such a situation, would not be justified on the basis of keeping such situation "orderly". Of course this is an extreme comparison but the fundamental ethics behind such a tax in this situation, illustrates why such a tax is not "justified" on the premise of order.



That is the problem, we should penalize lack of personal responsibility. The problem in not penalizing lack of personal responsibility, and instead penalizing everyone, or just those who are responsible, is that it's absolutely bat-shit insane.

That man with lung cancer places a burden on society, because many people in society think it's barbaric and unethical to tell that guy to "fuck off and handle his problem". While it's may be unethical in one sense to tell this, to a man with lung cancer, it's more unethical to financially burden everyone, in order to cover this man's health issue, due to lack of personal irresponsibility. Not only did he spend his money on what caused him cancer, but may not have money to cover the financial burden in such a situation, which completely justifies a penalization regarding that person's lack of responsibility. It's surely not everyone else's obligation to save that person either financially or physically.

And you're correct, you do not ban tobacco. That is surely curtailing personal freedom. Do you want to know what else is a curtail on personal freedom though? When people are forced to pay more money, on order to fund the idiot's hospital bill, who blew their medical expense money on tobacco, and thus can't take responsibility for their own situation.

What you do do, is make people who smoke tobacco take care of their own set of personal responsibilities regarding such a prerogative. That's how you solve that simple little problem.



No I do not support such asinine logic. Beyond such logic being just bat-shit insane, it's also incredibly unethical for such an enforcement to exist.

Medical service is just that, a service. The same way a mechanic repairs your car, a doctor repairs your body. There is really no difference from a business standpoint.

The doctor has student loans to pay, his home, his vehicle, and possibly children, all in which require money in order to maintain. As soon as you force someone, especially someone with the financial obligations of a doctor, to take a monetary loss, on the premise than an individual "needs" medical attention, you've stepped over the line of absolute-hypocrisy.

It's nothing more than a flawed logic to think that an individual is obligated in taking a monetary loss, for the sake of another's physical continuity or profit.

If you actually believe that people will fail to take care of themselves simply because they know they will be guaranteed health care if they are sick then I think you have a fundamentally different concept of what it is to be human than I do. I have health insurance and I always have, I know I will be taken care of but I don't run around doing bad things to myself simply because I know I will get medical care.

Now as to this mythical lung cancer victim, you advocate that we simply tell him to handle his own problem. The thing about your ideology is that it fails to take into account the interconnectedness of people in a culture. That often happens with libertarians or randians - enlightend self interest is it? This man's cancer affects his sons, his daughter, his parents, his wife. In so doing it also affects thoses that they are involved with. This man reacts in a society. Perhaps he is a business owner and his employees will be left in the cold should he die. Should he die he has to be cleaned up after, he has to be put into the ground and all the rest. But what if this man never smoked? Now is he responsible for his own condition and do your rules still apply? In the interest of order, it is everyone elses burden to deal with this problem but you don't see it that way. You don't see community or society but only a collection of individuals and this unfortunately is not reality.

I see that you say this "what you do is, make people who smoke tobacco take cre of their own set of personal responsibilities..." We agree, and the affordable health care law does exactly that - it forces those who don't want to buy insurance to do so, and in so doing, pay for their own set of personal responsibilities, yet you have a problem with that law. It is solving a simple little problem that really is neither simple or little.

Now you do not support such logic, if someone goes to a hospital with an emergency and cannot demonstrate an ability to pay, what would you have the hospital do with them? And by the way, no one is forcing the doctor to take a loss, they are forcing the community to take that loss - again, the law is in place so that we might have order, predictability, community, things that unless you appreciate, you cannot see the need for.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Car insurance on a motor vehicle, driving on a publicly funded road, is in no way, shape, or form comparable to that of the human body and the way's in which it can be neglected through personal irresponsibility.

Such comparisons makes me laugh. If you could logically compare both, please do so... I'm all ears open.


Should we have mandated auto-parts insurance as well? We all know everyone has a problem with their car sometime in life... I guess it's just not fair when your car breaks down, so a mandate will make it fair!

I see this more and more and it worries me, this notion that everyone is always fully responsible for their own health and if they have a health problem then that is always traceable to their behavior. Beyond that, if they are responsible for their ill health then no one should help them. In short, MY money is worth more than Your life.
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
There is a law, I don't know the details actually but will look for it, that says that no hospital may turn a needy patient away simply on account of that person's inability to pay. Do you support that ruling/law?
You are referring to EMTALA, one of the well intentioned most harmful laws imposed on the health care community. Our hospital has dozens of people who have been treated for over 50 "emergencies" a year. At 7pm when the doctors offices are closed the ER stacks up. We can't say, it's the sniffles, see your pediatrician, we have people with real emergencies here. So much abuse to the system was caused by this law causing skyrocketing costs because they must be treated and the type of person that uses the ER as a free clinic is usually the type that's looking to sue for a buck. This leads to those unnecessary tests everyone complains about.

The solution to the problem caused by this well intentioned yet idiotic law (health care professionals are a much better at diagnosing emergencies than a politician) is to pass more well intentioned yet idiotic laws. We in the field have been screaming for reform, real reform but we got this instead.

To give you some insight, most CEOs of hospitals love this new law, most workers in that same hospital hate it. You think maybe the hospital cartels made out like bandits here?
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
You are referring to EMTALA, one of the well intentioned most harmful laws imposed on the health care community. Our hospital has dozens of people who have been treated for over 50 "emergencies" a year. At 7pm when the doctors offices are closed the ER stacks up. We can't say, it's the sniffles, see your pediatrician, we have people with real emergencies here. So much abuse to the system was caused by this law causing skyrocketing costs because they must be treated and the type of person that uses the ER as a free clinic is usually the type that's looking to sue for a buck. This leads to those unnecessary tests everyone complains about.

The solution to the problem caused by this well intentioned yet idiotic law (health care professionals are a much better at diagnosing emergencies than a politician) is to pass more well intentioned yet idiotic laws. We in the field have been screaming for reform, real reform but we got this instead.

To give you some insight, most CEOs of hospitals love this new law, most workers in that same hospital hate it. You think maybe the hospital cartels made out like bandits here?

could be - but you said it was well intentioned, what would your world be like without such a law? Would accident victims be stacked along the side of the road? or am I imaging that? I agree that one of the problems with E.R.s is that they are used for regular medical situation and many ERs have been forced to close based on this, but is there a middle ground?
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
middle ground would be to let health care professionals decide what is an emergency and limit those that abuse the system.

were people left laying on the side of the road before the law? I don't remember it that way. What type or whether or not you have insurance should never enter our minds but unfortunately the government made this happen. You realize caid/care is the biggest denier of pre-existing conditions? They call it chronic so they can say it's not the same. If you had a stroke 10 years ago and have swallowing problems today we have to document in such a way to justify treating your issues. I know, you know and they know that it's secondary to the stroke but we can't write it up that way or it gets denied if it's been a "chronic" problem.
 

InCognition

Active Member
You are referring to EMTALA, one of the well intentioned most harmful laws imposed on the health care community. Our hospital has dozens of people who have been treated for over 50 "emergencies" a year. At 7pm when the doctors offices are closed the ER stacks up. We can't say, it's the sniffles, see your pediatrician, we have people with real emergencies here. So much abuse to the system was caused by this law causing skyrocketing costs because they must be treated and the type of person that uses the ER as a free clinic is usually the type that's looking to sue for a buck. This leads to those unnecessary tests everyone complains about.

The solution to the problem caused by this well intentioned yet idiotic law (health care professionals are a much better at diagnosing emergencies than a politician) is to pass more well intentioned yet idiotic laws. We in the field have been screaming for reform, real reform but we got this instead.

To give you some insight, most CEOs of hospitals love this new law, most workers in that same hospital hate it. You think maybe the hospital cartels made out like bandits here?
Exactly true.

This is something else I was going to bring up with Canndo, but I don't think he's fully aware of the intricacies of how a hospital works in relation to the money/labor involved from all the various parties involved. Then again most people who support all these "ethical" health care mandates, don't seem to understand the truth regarding the results from such forced obligations upon the medical industry.

I have nurses and doctors in my family, and they can tell you the horror stories of how the system really works, with the government's involvement in their practices. Unless you have first hand experience in a health care environment or have heard copious amounts of personal experience from another person in the field, you just won't understand how fucked up the system is in regards to screwing over real patients, and the real laborers, who need to be duly reimbursed for their services. This new system is one step further in regards reaming these real patients, and real laborers right up the ass, that much harder.

But if it's in the name of saving someone or providing their self-entitled "service", fuck all the costs and labor involved right? Because that's surely the responsible, and ethical thing to do...
 

InCognition

Active Member
I see this more and more and it worries me, this notion that everyone is always fully responsible for their own health and if they have a health problem then that is always traceable to their behavior. Beyond that, if they are responsible for their ill health then no one should help them. In short, MY money is worth more than Your life.
Everyone is not fully responsible for their health, but I'm sure you understood the point I was making? When you get into the "luck" factor of health care there are many more intricacies involved, such as someone being born blind. I don't believe someone born blind should be told to "fuck off", but being born with a condition in no way equates into the realm of causing one's own health care problems. They are completely separate issues.

If one is responsible for their own health, yes they should first take care of themselves, and see if any charitable parties are willing to aid in their issues. You absolutely do not force another human being to AID in helping someone for any reason, let alone if they caused that problem for themselves.

And lastly, money is not essentially worth more than someone's life. What is worth more than someone's life, is one's ability to make a free-willed choice in regards to helping or not helping, to save another's life.

If a guy from a hospital showed up at your doorstep, and demanded $100 because the guy down the street is in the ICU, and he lives in your neighborhood, in what way would it be ethical regarding a forced obligation upon you to pay that fee? It's not ethical period, so in that sense yes, your money is worth more than someone's life if you can make that personal choice yourself... you worked for the money, you decide how it's used. It's not someone else's decision to make that choice for you.

I believe you're being sarcastic, but anyone who believes the notion "that money is not worth more than life", and uses that belief to justify an unethical monetary obligation upon another, in order to save or better another person's life, is a hypocrite at best. Again, the justification of immorality for the sake of "morality", is nothing more than hypocrisy.
 
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