The Truth About Ron Paul - Part 2

Prefontaine

Well-Known Member
Can you provide a link to this? I have been searching and searching and all I can find is the liberal anti-paul websites (by searching for your quote) and very vague details on the MPA. That act has been shot down and reintroduced so many times that I would like validation.

Godwin's law is almost as factual as evolution...
hr7955 is the bill in question, and oddly enough its currently under maintenance on the government webpage that lists it.


apparently the library of congress is shut down? due to scheduled hardware maintenance? and i have been unable to find the full text anywhere or anything but the anti-paul crap too
 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
hr7955 is the bill in question, and oddly enough its currently under maintenance on the government webpage that lists it.


apparently the library of congress is shut down? due to scheduled hardware maintenance? and i have been unable to find the full text anywhere or anything but the anti-paul crap too
I know what bill it is and I have been trying to load that site all night. I'm trying to see it somewhere else. I just have a feeling that it was one of the later revisions that had that quoted text in it and Ron Paul is getting blamed for it. Probably wrong, though, who knows?

I'd be surprised after how much Ron Paul has been against anti-homosexual bills plus hearing him on that hardcore christian radio show talking about homosexuality in the military.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Willyßagseed;6175648 said:
Ron Paul gets elected President and gets his way:

Thank you, now I can purchase every gas station in all medium sized markets. Bump up the price and rape you blind. What are you going to do? Nothing, because I now own them all.

Since I still have billions left I think I will purchase all the local utility companies also......... you figure out what happens next... mhuhahahahaa

Since dumbass Bill Clinton already signed the telecom bill and I own all the media in your area who are you going to complain to?

Etc.. etc..etc.... list goes on and on. It still amazes me that the average Full blown Libertarian citizen actually thinks all this crap would actually help. They are partially correct, it will help people already in position to take advantage of the situation. Your position in life will not improve except for the fact you could smoke more cannabis, legally, so as to drown your tears because your ass now hurts more than ever.
Stupid, ignorant people.

Total deregulation is retarded, period. :hump:

Pro cannabis = good
Anti war = good

total deregulation = rape for the common citizen
[video=youtube;8C4gRRk2i-M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C4gRRk2i-M[/video]


This is Ron Paul talking about monopolies a long time ago. He rightly points out that the government is the cause of all monopolies. In the video they also state this:

"If everyone haves the same price, you have collusion. If your price is to high, you are gouging the consumers. If your price is too low, you are trying to destroy the competition. The government can say you are monopolizing no matter what you do."
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Willyßagseed;6175648 said:
Ron Paul gets elected President and gets his way:

Thank you, now I can purchase every gas station in all medium sized markets. Bump up the price and rape you blind. What are you going to do? Nothing, because I now own them all.

Since I still have billions left I think I will purchase all the local utility companies also......... you figure out what happens next... mhuhahahahaa

Since dumbass Bill Clinton already signed the telecom bill and I own all the media in your area who are you going to complain to?

Etc.. etc..etc.... list goes on and on. It still amazes me that the average Full blown Libertarian citizen actually thinks all this crap would actually help. They are partially correct, it will help people already in position to take advantage of the situation. Your position in life will not improve except for the fact you could smoke more cannabis, legally, so as to drown your tears because your ass now hurts more than ever.
Stupid, ignorant people.

Total deregulation is retarded, period. :hump:

Pro cannabis = good
Anti war = good

total deregulation = rape for the common citizen
If someone was gouging all the people by buying the gas stations in the medium sized markets. Wouldn't that cause independent people to go and open gas stations since now they can make money by selling gas? The issue would be if they made it so the gas station couldn't buy gas to compete with them. Amusingly, the biggest issues facing independent gas station owners is probably government regulations for having a gas station and profit margins. A monopoly by a gas seller causing the margin on gas to be higher would actually make it easier for independents to open up cause they would make more money per gallon.

Why are monopolies necessarily a bad thing? Make doing bad things as a monopoly illegal, but making monopolies illegal is wrong. All monopolies don't do evil things, a lot of them are just normal businesses that do well. Outlawing being a big business because you fear them is akin to the laws made against black people in the 1800s.
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
Ron Paul is partially correct, bad regulation can cause severe issues.

How are independents going to open their own stations when people like the Koch brothers already own the refineries........... your argument is void.

Stop being small minded thinking "free market" will fix shit, it won't as long as human beings are involved. Many people accuse Lefties of wanting to have a utopia, methinks Libertarians who don't think out more than a couple of moves are the ones either lying to themselves or wearing the rose coloured shades.

Yes why are monopolies and deregulation evil....... Why don't you ask the average citizen of feudal times what they thought of their Lords and Barons and the monopolies they had. You may want to be a legal cannabis smoking serf but I don't.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Willyßagseed;6176426 said:
Ron Paul is partially correct, bad regulation can cause severe issues.

How are independents going to open their own stations when people like the Koch brothers already own the refineries........... your argument is void.

Stop being small minded thinking "free market" will fix shit, it won't as long as human beings are involved. Many people accuse Lefties of wanting to have a utopia, methinks Libertarians who don't think out more than a couple of moves are the ones either lying to themselves or wearing the rose coloured shades.

Yes why are monopolies and deregulation evil....... Why don't you ask the average citizen of feudal times what they thought of their Lords and Barons and the monopolies they had. You may want to be a legal cannabis smoking serf but I don't.
Couldn't a bunch of Gas station owners form a Co op to build a refinery? Why yes, they could. But they couldn't do it today, becasue the EPA has banned the building of them. Therefore the EPA has directly given the Koch brothers a monopoly.

BTW you are already a serf they just call you a tenant now instead.

PS, If you own something its not a monopoly, its called private property.
 

dukeanthony

New Member
The EPA hasnt banned the Building of Refiniries. They do have a stringent application process combine that with NIMBY movements and they do not get built.

A regulated free market is good. An unregulated Free market ends up like the game of Monopoly. And we all know how shitty that is when 1 guy ends up owning everything on the board

Myths and Facts about Oil Refineries in the United States




Myths and Facts about Oil Refineries in the United States
The Bush administration and some members of Congress blame environmental rules for causing strains on refining capacity, prompting shortages and driving up prices. But in reality, it is uncompetitive actions by a handful of companies with large control over our nation’s gas markets that is directly causing these high prices.
Myth 1: Oil refineries are not being built in the U.S. because environmental regulations, particularly the Clean Air Act, are so bureaucratic and burdensome that refiners cannot get permits.
Fact: Environmental regulations are not preventing new refineries from being built in the U.S. From 1975 to 2000, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) received only one permit request for a new refinery. And in March, EPA approved Arizona Clean Fuels’ application for an air permit for a proposed refinery in Arizona. In addition, oil companies are regularly applying for – and receiving – permits to modify and expand their existing refineries.[1]
Myth 2: The U.S. oil refinery market is competitive.
Fact: Actually, industry consolidation is limiting competition in oil refining sector. The largest five oil refiners in the United States (ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, BP, Valero and Royal Dutch Shell) now control over half (56.3%) of domestic oil refinery capacity; the top ten refiners control 83%. Only ten years ago, these top five oil companies only controlled about one-third (34.5%) of domestic refinery capacity; the top ten controlled 55.6%. This dramatic increase in the control of just the top five companies makes it easier for oil companies to manipulate gasoline supplies by intentionally withholding supplies in order to drive up prices. Indeed, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) concluded in March 2001 that oil companies had intentionally withheld supplies of gasoline from the market as a tactic to drive up prices—all as a “profit-maximizing strategy.” A May 2004 U.S. Governmental Accountability Office (GAO) report also found that mergers in the oil industry directly led to higher prices—and this report did not even include the large mergers after the year 2000, such as ChevronTexaco and ConocoPhillips. Yet, just one week after Hurricane Katrina, the FTC approved yet another merger of refinery giants—Valero Energy and Premcor—giving Valero 13% of the national market share. These actions, while costing consumers billions of dollars in overcharges, have not been challenged by the U.S. government.
Myth 3: The United States has maxed out its oil refining capability.
Fact: Oil companies have exploited their strong market position to intentionally restrict refining capacity by driving smaller, independent refiners out of business. A congressional investigation uncovered internal memos written by the major oil companies operating in the U.S. discussing their successful strategies to maximize profits by forcing independent refineries out of business, resulting in tighter refinery capacity. From 1995-2002, 97% of the more than 920,000 barrels of oil per day of capacity that have been shut down were owned and operated by smaller, independent refiners. Were this capacity to be in operation today, refiners could use it to better meet today’s reformulated gasoline blend needs.
Profit margins for oil refiners have been at record highs. In 1999, for every gallon of gasoline refined from crude oil, U.S. oil refiners made a profit of 22.8 cents. By 2004, the profits jumped 80% to 40.8 cents per gallon of gasoline refined. Between 2001 and mid-2005, the combined profits for the biggest five refiners was $228 billion.
Gutting environmental laws for oil refinery siting will not solve the high gas prices.
So what should be done?
  • Improve regulations over the over-concentrated oil industry
The most effective way to protect consumers is to restore competitive markets. Congress should limit the financial incentives oil companies have to keep gasoline supplies artificially tight by mandating minimum storage of gasoline, reevaluating recent mergers, investigating anticompetitive practices, and re-regulating oil trading.
  • Adopt tougher fuel economy standards
In 2004, the EPA found that the average fuel economy of 2004 vehicles is 20.8 miles per gallon (mpg), compared to 22.1 mpg in 1987—a six percent decline. This decline is attributable to the fact that fuel economy standards have not been meaningfully increased since the 1980s, while sales of fuel inefficient SUVs and pickups have exploded: in 1987, 28% of new vehicles sold were light trucks, compared to 48% in 2004. Billions of gallons of oil could be saved if significant fuel economy increases were mandated. Improving fuel economy standards for passenger vehicles from 27.5 to 40 mpg, and for light trucks (including SUVs and vans) from 20.7 to 27.5 mpg by 2015 would reduce our gasoline consumption by one-third. Dramatic reductions in consumption will not only reduce strain on America’s refinery output, but also on Americans’ pocketbooks.
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
Couldn't a bunch of Gas station owners form a Co op to build a refinery? Why yes, they could. But they couldn't do it today, becasue the EPA has banned the building of them. Therefore the EPA has directly given the Koch brothers a monopoly.

BTW you are already a serf they just call you a tenant now instead.

PS, If you own something its not a monopoly, its called private property.
In this scenario there are not a bunch of station owners there is one.

I am a tenant of nothing, my home and property (including water and mineral rights) are mine, paid off years ago. I work part time because I like to not because I have to.

If you also wish to be a legalized cannabis smoking serf be my guest and vote for a man who has many great ideas but also many more insane over the rainbow, wishful thinking ideas.

Ron Paul will never be President, just like no out of the closet atheist will ever be President in the near future.
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
Half of all refineries closed in the 1980's and 1990's and nothing was wrong with them. Why do we need more if we do not even use what we have / had?

If you do not believe it is profit motivated you need to read a little more. If you do think it was profit motivated then as a Libertarian you should be happy your buddies are making more money at your expense.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Really? And why not?
Because the source info DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS the statements they have made.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=106_house_hearings&docid=f:74099.wais i.e. "The Source" said:
Let's take a look. There has not been a single new oil refinery built in this country in 25 years. 25 years. If you could build a new refinery, it would be almost impossible to build a new pipeline to get your product to market because of environmental regulations and other regulations. Look at the electricity situation in San Francisco. The population of the Bay area has grown 50 percent in the last 20 years, yet not one new power plant has been built to serve the area since 1982. We are going to talk today to a California executive who builds power plants about all of the problems they are having in that area. Secretary Richardson testified here before us in June. He summed up the situation pretty well. He said, ``We have dramatically increased demand; however, domestic oil production and domestic refinery capacity has not kept up with that demand.'' Why not? State and local laws play a part, but a big part of the problem is Federal regulation. Take a look at the oil business. Under all of the requirements of the Clean Air Act, it simply is not economical to build a new refinery in this country. You can't do it. In 1982, there were 231 refineries in the United States. Today, that's dropped to 155, and yet demand keeps rising. Yet at the same time, under the reformulated gasoline provisions of the Clean Air Act, refineries have to make as many as 15 different blends of gasoline in the summertime, so we have fewer refineries with much more demand by the government and by the population as far as the need is concerned. The result is that you have a system that is straining at its limits to meet demand. Under those conditions, all it takes is one small disruption to set off a crisis. And at the end of the summer, after struggling to meet the demand for gasoline all summer, they're not prepared for the home heating oil season.
And that is why they are not credible. The proof is awesome isn't it?
 

dukeanthony

New Member
So the problem I take it is. We need to take a more relaxed attitude towards poisoning our air and water. And after all how cool would it be to be able to start your Tap water on fire?
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Willyßagseed;6176504 said:
In this scenario there are not a bunch of station owners there is one.

I am a tenant of nothing, my home and property (including water and mineral rights) are mine, paid off years ago. I work part time because I like to not because I have to.

If you also wish to be a legalized cannabis smoking serf be my guest and vote for a man who has many great ideas but also many more insane over the rainbow, wishful thinking ideas.

Ron Paul will never be President, just like no out of the closet atheist will ever be President in the near future.
Sorry dude, but if you look at your home title, you are listed as a "Tenant". Know why? Becasue the house isn't really yours, it really belongs to the state/county/city you live in. Stop paying your property taxes and see who comes along and just takes your home away, regardless of whether you have title or not and irregardless of whether or not you made payment in full.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
So the problem I take it is. We need to take a more relaxed attitude towards poisoning our air and water. And after all how cool would it be to be able to start your Tap water on fire?
The master of the Straw Man argument strikes again. Hopefully, some day, you can actually debate the subject at hand without falling into the habit of just spewing logical fallacies that are very simple to defeat.

Who would want to poison our air and water? I don't know if you knew this or not, but refineries are not big polluters unless there is a spill of some kind.
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
Don't know about yours but mine has tenant nowhere on the deed. My neighbors does but he and his wife both own the property. If you live in a Western state you have an 80% chance of not even owning your water and property rights. I do own mine.
 

fdd2blk

Well-Known Member
i just want to know what has happened in the last 4 years that makes any of this any different then the past.

not one person has brought any new points to this dead argument. on either side.

ron paul will NEVER be president.


you'd all be better off using your energy knitting. in the end, at least you'd have a pair of slippers to wear. ;)
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Willyßagseed;6176592 said:
Don't know about yours but mine has tenant nowhere on the deed. My neighbors does but he and his wife both own the property. If you live in a Western state you have an 80% chance of not even owning your water and property rights. I do own mine.
Why would it be on your deed? The deed is only a piece of paperwork showing the property transfer, you should look at your OWNERSHIP documents, its called a TITLE.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
i just want to know what has happened in the last 4 years that makes any of this any different then the past.

not one person has brought any new points to this dead argument. on either side.

ron paul will NEVER be president.


you'd all be better off using your energy knitting. in the end, at least you'd have a pair of slippers to wear. ;)
So educating ones self has no value? That seems odd coming from someone who has tried to educate plenty of people on Growing MJ. Are you sure you should even post on this forum at all? I mean, wouldn't you be better off knitting yourself a sweater than coming to tell everyone that they don't need to really know what is going on in the world?
 

dukeanthony

New Member
The master of the Straw Man argument strikes again. Hopefully, some day, you can actually debate the subject at hand without falling into the habit of just spewing logical fallacies that are very simple to defeat.

Who would want to poison our air and water? I don't know if you knew this or not, but refineries are not big polluters unless there is a spill of some kind.
CAN YOU DO THIS WITH YOUR TAP WATER?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U01EK76Sy4A

I dont know if you know this. But Refiniries stink up the area around them for miles. I lived by one (that burnt up btw) when I was a kid
 
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