Should the US shed blood for Ukraine

Should the USA along with NATO defend Ukraine with troops.

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 40.4%
  • No

    Votes: 59 59.6%

  • Total voters
    99

Budzbuddha

Well-Known Member
Clearly this is not the simple Molotov cocktail I learned about…what’s in that shit?
For me , good ol’ motor oil / diesel mixed with gas. Fuel hydrocarbons that produce a gummy residue . I seen what the recipe method the Ukrainians
are using ….. a simple DIY mixture of Gasoline and most importantly ( polystyrene ) , from styrofoam plates or pelletized form from pillows , beanbags etc.

This recipe will make a useful and easily created - NAPALM cocktail.

Military and “ Anarchist Cookbook “ teaches you things.
 

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
Another positive is maybe the USA will agree to take all their stupid nukes out of Europe and other areas that are pointed at Russia, not to mention all the silly bases and military occupation the USA engages in. It's obvious that "the Monroe Doctrine" foreign policy of the USA is about to be used against it.

Maybe people will finally realize military aggression is costly and detracts from actually solving problems that lead to a more peaceful world.

The USA had a chance to bring actual peace to the world, but the example the USA used wasn't peace, it was world domination and control for corporate interests. Those chickens are coming home to roost now. Happens to every empire.
Its very sad how the three super powers have been acting.

I wonder if i'm to old to see how China will act as the Number 1 Super power?
 

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
For me , good ol’ motor oil / diesel mixed with gas. Fuel hydrocarbons that produce a gummy residue . I seen what the recipe method the Ukrainians
are using ….. a simple DIY mixture of Gasoline and most importantly ( polystyrene ) , from styrofoam plates or pelletized form from pillows , beanbags etc.

This recipe will make a useful and easily created - NAPALM cocktail.

Military and “ Anarchist Cookbook “ teaches you things.
Oooh, styrene…Anarchist Cookbook was fun, but NOT dependable - or especially useful

Its very sad how the three super powers have been acting.

I wonder if i'm to old to see how China will act as the Number 1 Super power?
Interesting question…but curious as to how you see the US dance in this if you think it’s “sad”. Personally, I appreciate the effective efforts we’ve made and am pleased with Joe’s performance re; Pooti and the ‘Kraine (“they all laughed when I mentioned sanctions….”)

I kinda like not being ashamed of the president and his choices…(though he should put the thumbscrews to Sin/‘Chin IMO, but that’s a different conversation)
 
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Sativied

Well-Known Member
I'm watching to see if Ukraine is accepted to the European Union. If so Putin may have to withdraw or Nuke the World.
Oh you’re in for a very long watch then. I’ll put this subtle because it looks like they are in for a rough night… It does not work that way. Even as a somewhat eurosceptic I’m almost insulted by the suggestion Ukraine can simply join the EU as if it’s a golfclub. It’s a process that takes many years and requires unanimous approval of all other member states and a long process of reforms other countries did go through to get membership. Let them join NATO, send in an international force to kill every Russian, bomb Moscow for all I care, but there are good reasons they are not in the EU yet and being invaded by Russia doesn’t suddenly mean a nation meets the criteria to join. It’s quite absurd, the empty yet potentionally escalating words from Ursula von der Leyen, unelected President of the European Commission who has zero say in the matter and should step down asap. The only hypothetical benefit on the very short term would be the ability to avoid some bureaucracy and laws that can be changed much faster than Ukraine could possibly join. And in response to a previous post, no, joining EU isn’t a stepping stone to NATO membership, the two are completely unrelated. There are EU countries not in NATO and there are NATO members not in EU.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Oh you’re in for a very long watch then. I’ll put this subtle because it looks like they are in for a rough night… It does not work that way. Even as a somewhat eurosceptic I’m almost insulted by the suggestion Ukraine can simply join the EU as if it’s a golfclub. It’s a process that takes many years and requires unanimous approval of all other member states and a long process of reforms other countries did go through to get membership. Let them join NATO, send in an international force to kill every Russian, bomb Moscow for all I care, but there are good reasons they are not in the EU yet and being invaded by Russia doesn’t suddenly mean a nation meets the criteria to join. It’s quite absurd, the empty yet potentionally escalating words from Ursula von der Leyen, unelected President of the European Commission who has zero say in the matter and should step down asap. The only hypothetical benefit on the very short term would be the ability to avoid some bureaucracy and laws that can be changed much faster than Ukraine could possibly join. And in response to a previous post, no, joining EU isn’t a stepping stone to NATO membership, the two are completely unrelated. There are EU countries not in NATO and there are NATO members not in EU.
They are getting what they need now, help from the EU. Membership can wait and I'm sure Zelenskiy would be eager to help them clean up the Ukraine economy, the resources they have to offer the EU are impressive. The people also appear to be eager for liberal democracy and have impressed many in the EU, courage counts for a lot and never goes out of fashion. Ukraine needs to be readied for EU membership, but they are an excellent candidate and with American help can rapidly make the cut.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
They are getting what they need now, help from the EU. Membership can wait and I'm sure Zelenskiy would be eager to help them clean up the Ukraine economy, the resources they have to offer the EU are impressive. The people also appear to be eager for liberal democracy and have impressed many in the EU, courage counts for a lot and never goes out of fashion. Ukraine needs to be readied for EU membership, but they are an excellent candidate and with American help can rapidly make the cut.
Let’s discuss this again after Putin and his army is dead and hopefully enough is left of Ukraine (and the world) that it does become a relevant discussion. You are correct they are making a very good impression and that counts for a lot.

RIU is so good for practicing restraint. :)
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Let’s discuss this again after Putin and his army is dead and hopefully enough is left of Ukraine (and the world) that it does become a relevant discussion. You are correct they are making a very good impression and that counts for a lot.

RIU is so good for practicing restraint. :)
Vlad is in trouble, the fight for liberal democracy in now on his doorstep and in his face, suddenly it has turned into a struggle for personal survival for him. He miscalculated badly and NATO is gonna do everything it can to make him pay for as long as the Ukrainians want to pay the price in blood. This will move to western Ukraine if the eastern part is over whelmed and they will have short and secure lines of communication with NATO, supplies and support. They will temporarily move the capitol and if Zelenskiy can get out he will operate out of there, he has become like Churchill an is more valuable now than the capitol itself. The destruction of Kyiv would not go over well in Russia, it is a cultural, historic and religious center for Slavic peoples including Russians.
 

djumbir

Well-Known Member
So far (other than Shrubber, who did provide some argument about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki, no matter the disagreement between us), all other lefty Yankees don't go any further than "Putin egomaniac", "oligarch evil", "all Russians should go to hell" etc. Not to mention how rude they are in their communication with those who think differently. It's hard for me to believe that your brains are that heavily polluted by media and propaganda that you fail to perceive the facts objectively and unemotionally.

No, Russia didn't attack Ukraine because Putin is an evil egomaniac (he might be, but that is completely irrelevant). And no, it's not to reinstate some medieval Russian empire. And no, it's not a complex matter, but a very simple, geopolitical one instead.

As you hopefully know, NATO was formed after WWII to compete against USSR during the cold War. Few years later, Soviet reaction to it was forming of the Warsaw Pact. Warsaw Pact was a buffer zone between USSR and NATO, and it consisted of several central and eastern European countries plus Albania from the south, thus making the "iron curtain".

Now, a big part of this conflict lies in the fact that NATO has violated the agreement made by James A. Baker and Mikhail Gorbachev in 1900, - that NATO would not extend past the territory of then East Germany. That was an assurance made by NATO on many occasions after that. NATO starter expanding as soon as 1999 when Poland, Czechia and Hungary entered, and continued in 2004 with East Balkans and Baltic admissions. By 2009, my country enters the pact. You might wonder why didn't Russia stop the the countries, namely Baltic ones (closes to Russia) to enter NATO? Well, Russia was experiencing its worst time economically since wwii during drunken buddy Yeltsin rule, and the country was by no means capable of opposing it. Only in late 2000s did the country start to consolidate and grow strong enough to start planning what we're witnessing these days.

What is interesting is that we're experiencing similar pattern seen in many countries with big Russian minority:
1. People live in relative or absolute peace.
2. Current government at the time, starts undertaking steps towards NATO.
3. Naturally, Russian minorities oppose by secession from those countries by forming their quasi, semi-independ states (Abkhazia and South Ossetia broke up with Georgia that way, Transistria happened in Moldova).
⬇
And now point 3 is happening again, in Ukraine.

After the 2004 Orange Revolution, there was a re-run of the elections that initially sparked the protests, in which the pro west Yushchenko, finally wins in the west, namely in Lviv (5.5%), while his opponent, pro Russian Yanukovych, gets a major win in, you guessed it, Donetsk (10. 1%). Victor Yushchenko gained ~5% more than in the first run and became the president of Ukraine. I'll stop writing about Orange Revolution, although whether it was or wasn't orchestrated by external factors makes it is an interesting topic itself.

At that time, Donetsk region started threatening to break away. However, the threats were quite mellow at the time. Only after Yanukovych finally got to power in 2010, and then got driven away again in 2014, Donetsk and Luhansk started expressing their scepticism toward the new Ukrainian government. Coincidentally or not, at the same time Crimea (which btw has always been showing very strong pro Russian sentiment) gets annexed by Russia.
Crimea is also a topic for itself, and the roots of the unrest there were purely economic (oil driven). That's a very pragmatic approach and a discovery in 2012 confirms that as it finds that west of the peninsula is among the areas with richest reserves in shale gas in Ukraine. Soon enough, exploration and drilling rights were granted to Exxon and Shell.
The other of the two richest deposits lies in, you guessed it, Donbas. It's self explanatory by now.

Is Russia breaking the international law by attacking a sovereign country? Yes. Is everybody against it? Yes, and rightly so. But it is apparently strong enough to do so. Might is right, unfortunately.
Do not forget that NATO (spoiler: double standards ahead) was the first one to make exactly the same breach of international law when it was bombing Serbia (my country's nemesis), which was also at the time defending its borders. Our neighbor's borders were then changed, which opened a Pandora's box worldwide.

Might is right, deal with it.

Maybe I'm blessed in this situation to come from a country that has, for most of its modern history, been neutral and nonaligned. Perhaps that strips me of any bias in this situation. And whether I fuck goats or not, these are all relevant facts which can be checked easily.
 

djumbir

Well-Known Member
Vlad is in trouble, the fight for liberal democracy in now on his doorstep and in his face, suddenly it has turned into a struggle for personal survival for him. He miscalculated badly and NATO is gonna do everything it can to make him pay for as long as the Ukrainians want to pay the price in blood. This will move to western Ukraine if the eastern part is over whelmed and they will have short and secure lines of communication with NATO, supplies and support. They will temporarily move the capitol and if Zelenskiy can get out he will operate out of there, he has become like Churchill an is more valuable now than the capitol itself. The destruction of Kyiv would not go over well in Russia, it is a cultural, historic and religious center for Slavic peoples including Russians.
This is naked truth! And it will be Putin's checkmate.
As I said few days ago, this is a win-win situation for the US, they can surly start celebrating. But the poor Ukrainians will pay the price
 

Friendly_Grower

Well-Known Member
So far (other than Shrubber, who did provide some argument about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki, no matter the disagreement between us), all other lefty Yankees don't go any further than "Putin egomaniac", "oligarch evil", "all Russians should go to hell" etc. Not to mention how rude they are in their communication with those who think differently. It's hard for me to believe that your brains are that heavily polluted by media and propaganda that you fail to perceive the facts objectively and unemotionally.

No, Russia didn't attack Ukraine because Putin is an evil egomaniac (he might be, but that is completely irrelevant). And no, it's not to reinstate some medieval Russian empire. And no, it's not a complex matter, but a very simple, geopolitical one instead.

As you hopefully know, NATO was formed after WWII to compete against USSR during the cold War. Few years later, Soviet reaction to it was forming of the Warsaw Pact. Warsaw Pact was a buffer zone between USSR and NATO, and it consisted of several central and eastern European countries plus Albania from the south, thus making the "iron curtain".

Now, a big part of this conflict lies in the fact that NATO has violated the agreement made by James A. Baker and Mikhail Gorbachev in 1900, - that NATO would not extend past the territory of then East Germany. That was an assurance made by NATO on many occasions after that. NATO starter expanding as soon as 1999 when Poland, Czechia and Hungary entered, and continued in 2004 with East Balkans and Baltic admissions. By 2009, my country enters the pact. You might wonder why didn't Russia stop the the countries, namely Baltic ones (closes to Russia) to enter NATO? Well, Russia was experiencing its worst time economically since wwii during drunken buddy Yeltsin rule, and the country was by no means capable of opposing it. Only in late 2000s did the country start to consolidate and grow strong enough to start planning what we're witnessing these days.

What is interesting is that we're experiencing similar pattern seen in many countries with big Russian minority:
1. People live in relative or absolute peace.
2. Current government at the time, starts undertaking steps towards NATO.
3. Naturally, Russian minorities oppose by secession from those countries by forming their quasi, semi-independ states (Abkhazia and South Ossetia broke up with Georgia that way, Transistria happened in Moldova).
⬇
And now point 3 is happening again, in Ukraine.

After the 2004 Orange Revolution, there was a re-run of the elections that initially sparked the protests, in which the pro west Yushchenko, finally wins in the west, namely in Lviv (5.5%), while his opponent, pro Russian Yanukovych, gets a major win in, you guessed it, Donetsk (10. 1%). Victor Yushchenko gained ~5% more than in the first run and became the president of Ukraine. I'll stop writing about Orange Revolution, although whether it was or wasn't orchestrated by external factors makes it is an interesting topic itself.

At that time, Donetsk region started threatening to break away. However, the threats were quite mellow at the time. Only after Yanukovych finally got to power in 2010, and then got driven away again in 2014, Donetsk and Luhansk started expressing their scepticism toward the new Ukrainian government. Coincidentally or not, at the same time Crimea (which btw has always been showing very strong pro Russian sentiment) gets annexed by Russia.
Crimea is also a topic for itself, and the roots of the unrest there were purely economic (oil driven). That's a very pragmatic approach and a discovery in 2012 confirms that as it finds that west of the peninsula is among the areas with richest reserves in shale gas in Ukraine. Soon enough, exploration and drilling rights were granted to Exxon and Shell.
The other of the two richest deposits lies in, you guessed it, Donbas. It's self explanatory by now.

Is Russia breaking the international law by attacking a sovereign country? Yes. Is everybody against it? Yes, and rightly so. But it is apparently strong enough to do so. Might is right, unfortunately.
Do not forget that NATO (spoiler: double standards ahead) was the first one to make exactly the same breach of international law when it was bombing Serbia (my country's nemesis), which was also at the time defending its borders. Our neighbor's borders were then changed, which opened a Pandora's box worldwide.

Might is right, deal with it.

Maybe I'm blessed in this situation to come from a country that has, for most of its modern history, been neutral and nonaligned. Perhaps that strips me of any bias in this situation. And whether I fuck goats or not, these are all relevant facts which can be checked easily.
Thank you for that meaningful content. It took some clarity of mind and it is a good read.

You are right as in I agree that the most common denominator is tribalism.
You also do a wonderful job in my opinion of providing the reader with context for your arguments.

That said I hope Ukraine KICKS PUTIN'S ASS!
There, that felt very tribal ( pun intended )
Seriously it is a good read thanks.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
I want to see him in front of a court in the Hague & tried for war crimes & sent to a fucking gulag in Siberia for the rest of his fucked up life.
what would be worse for putin would be to put him in a psych ward...
"No, i really used to be President of Russia, i controlled the second most powerful army in the world!"...."of course you did, Vlad, and how does that make you feel?"
Irrelevance would be ten times worse than death for him.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
So far (other than Shrubber, who did provide some argument about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki, no matter the disagreement between us), all other lefty Yankees don't go any further than "Putin egomaniac", "oligarch evil", "all Russians should go to hell" etc. Not to mention how rude they are in their communication with those who think differently. It's hard for me to believe that your brains are that heavily polluted by media and propaganda that you fail to perceive the facts objectively and unemotionally.

No, Russia didn't attack Ukraine because Putin is an evil egomaniac (he might be, but that is completely irrelevant). And no, it's not to reinstate some medieval Russian empire. And no, it's not a complex matter, but a very simple, geopolitical one instead.

As you hopefully know, NATO was formed after WWII to compete against USSR during the cold War. Few years later, Soviet reaction to it was forming of the Warsaw Pact. Warsaw Pact was a buffer zone between USSR and NATO, and it consisted of several central and eastern European countries plus Albania from the south, thus making the "iron curtain".

Now, a big part of this conflict lies in the fact that NATO has violated the agreement made by James A. Baker and Mikhail Gorbachev in 1900, - that NATO would not extend past the territory of then East Germany. That was an assurance made by NATO on many occasions after that. NATO starter expanding as soon as 1999 when Poland, Czechia and Hungary entered, and continued in 2004 with East Balkans and Baltic admissions. By 2009, my country enters the pact. You might wonder why didn't Russia stop the the countries, namely Baltic ones (closes to Russia) to enter NATO? Well, Russia was experiencing its worst time economically since wwii during drunken buddy Yeltsin rule, and the country was by no means capable of opposing it. Only in late 2000s did the country start to consolidate and grow strong enough to start planning what we're witnessing these days.

What is interesting is that we're experiencing similar pattern seen in many countries with big Russian minority:
1. People live in relative or absolute peace.
2. Current government at the time, starts undertaking steps towards NATO.
3. Naturally, Russian minorities oppose by secession from those countries by forming their quasi, semi-independ states (Abkhazia and South Ossetia broke up with Georgia that way, Transistria happened in Moldova).
⬇
And now point 3 is happening again, in Ukraine.

After the 2004 Orange Revolution, there was a re-run of the elections that initially sparked the protests, in which the pro west Yushchenko, finally wins in the west, namely in Lviv (5.5%), while his opponent, pro Russian Yanukovych, gets a major win in, you guessed it, Donetsk (10. 1%). Victor Yushchenko gained ~5% more than in the first run and became the president of Ukraine. I'll stop writing about Orange Revolution, although whether it was or wasn't orchestrated by external factors makes it is an interesting topic itself.

At that time, Donetsk region started threatening to break away. However, the threats were quite mellow at the time. Only after Yanukovych finally got to power in 2010, and then got driven away again in 2014, Donetsk and Luhansk started expressing their scepticism toward the new Ukrainian government. Coincidentally or not, at the same time Crimea (which btw has always been showing very strong pro Russian sentiment) gets annexed by Russia.
Crimea is also a topic for itself, and the roots of the unrest there were purely economic (oil driven). That's a very pragmatic approach and a discovery in 2012 confirms that as it finds that west of the peninsula is among the areas with richest reserves in shale gas in Ukraine. Soon enough, exploration and drilling rights were granted to Exxon and Shell.
The other of the two richest deposits lies in, you guessed it, Donbas. It's self explanatory by now.

Is Russia breaking the international law by attacking a sovereign country? Yes. Is everybody against it? Yes, and rightly so. But it is apparently strong enough to do so. Might is right, unfortunately.
Do not forget that NATO (spoiler: double standards ahead) was the first one to make exactly the same breach of international law when it was bombing Serbia (my country's nemesis), which was also at the time defending its borders. Our neighbor's borders were then changed, which opened a Pandora's box worldwide.

Might is right, deal with it.

Maybe I'm blessed in this situation to come from a country that has, for most of its modern history, been neutral and nonaligned. Perhaps that strips me of any bias in this situation. And whether I fuck goats or not, these are all relevant facts which can be checked easily.
so you're saying it's about greed, he wants to steal the resources of a now sovereign country? i would respect him a lot more if it was about resurrecting the old ussr....hell, i'd respect him more if he was just fucking insane...not that he isn't.
If you're right, then it's just more money grubbing on a truly villainous scale, all he is, is a highway man who takes the entire fucking highway, and kills innocent children to steal the property of his neighbors...a common criminal with an uncommon arsenal
 

Jimdamick

Well-Known Member
Might is right, deal with it.
and what is the True Source of Power/Might? (Hint/Putin ain't got none anymore :) )


The World's Banks are the most powerful entities on the Planet & if you're costing them resources/money and are an embarrassment, you're finished.

Individual or Nation, they don't give a fuck as Russia is finding out

Trump is also going to experience that very soon :)

Followed by Putin?

Maybe

It's all going crazy

Who the fuck knows what's next (probably a fucking asteroid)

One more money song :) Gotta play it/forgive me :)

 
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DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
and what is the True Source of Power/Might? (Hint/Putin ain't got none anymore :) )


The World's Banks are the most powerful entities on the Planet & if you're costing them resources/money and are embarrassment, you're finished.

Individual or Nation, they don't give a fuck as Russia is finding out

Trump is also going to experience that very soon :)

Followed by Putin?

Maybe

It's all going crazy

Who the fuck knows what's next (probably a fucking asteroid)

One more money song :) Gotta play it/forgive me :)

It's a pivotal point in world history. Joe has been POTUS for little over a year and already the fight for liberal democracy is on Vlad's door step and in his face. It didn't take ole Joe long to get Vlad by the nuts and start squeezing till the fucker howls. He is impressed as anybody by the guts and resolve of the Ukrainian people and he is gonna bet all he can on them to do Vlad, so is NATO and the EU. Russia is facing economic collapse unless Vlad "retires" for real, or eats a bullet. I dunno if the CIA planned this, but they are sure gonna jump in with both feet now! This has suddenly turned into a struggle for survival for Vlad, even though it is a nightmare for the Ukraine. Nothing empties a treasury like a conventional war and nothing changed modern war like Stingers to strip off tactical air support and anti tank weapons to deal with armor, blunts the effect Blitzkrieg attacks.
 

Friendly_Grower

Well-Known Member
It's a pivotal point in world history. Joe has been POTUS for little over a year and already the fight for liberal democracy is on Vlad's door step and in his face. It didn't take ole Joe long to get Vlad by the nuts and start squeezing till the fucker howls. He is impressed as anybody by the guts and resolve of the Ukrainian people and he is gonna bet all he can on them to do Vlad, so is NATO and the EU. Russia is facing economic collapse unless Vlad "retires" for real, or eats a bullet. I dunno if the CIA planned this, but they are sure gonna jump in with both feet now! This has suddenly turned into a struggle for survival for Vlad, even though it is a nightmare for the Ukraine. Nothing empties a treasury like a conventional war and nothing changed modern war like Stingers to strip off tactical air support and anti tank weapons to deal with armor, blunts the effect Blitzkrieg attacks.
If the E.U. and NATO break all protocol and adopt Ukraine wouldn't that be an interesting Chess Move?

Talk about "Lightening Attack" It would be a political shock-wave if "the powers of public and private" which are converging on Putin Worldwide, goes ahead full steam and admits Ukraine as both E.U. Member and NATO member in just 7 more days.
The worst nightmare Putin could want is something smarter, faster and more long lasting than his egotistical ass.
 
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