Should the US shed blood for Ukraine

Should the USA along with NATO defend Ukraine with troops.

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 40.4%
  • No

    Votes: 59 59.6%

  • Total voters
    99

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
It sucks to protest in Russia.
You get arrested by the hundreds.
Why the Republicans are titillated is a real concern.
Those Russians doing it have some serious balls. They are taking actual risks.

This subject has actually caused quite a schism in the Republican Party and they aren't good with that. Contradictions hurt the average Republican voter's head.

Something tells me that the dice are quite possibly rolling. The pro-Putin Republicans look like shit right now. Where will the wheel stop? Time will tell.

We're going to have our asses handed to us in the next midterm. But maybe the Republican victory will be Pyrrhic.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Those Russians doing it have some serious balls. They are taking actual risks.

This subject has actually caused quite a schism in the Republican Party and they aren't good with that. Contradictions hurt the average Republican voter's head.

Something tells me that the dice are quite possibly rolling. The pro-Putin Republicans look like shit right now. Where will the wheel stop? Time will tell.

We're going to have our asses handed to us in the next midterm. But maybe the Republican victory will be Pyrrhic.
Wait for the videos of war to emerge, especially if this gets drawn out, it's in Joe's interest to make this as painful for Vlad as he can. The Ukrainian pluck and courage has motivated a lot of help and Russia faltering militarily has encouraged many too and exposed fundamental weakness. The Ukrainians will die with the weapons we give them in their hands, nothing will be given up but urban rubble fields.

Vlad went to Defcon2, a sign of weakness or madness or both.
 

Friendly_Grower

Well-Known Member
Putin is such an idiot in that his lands offers so much future potential, and after the iron curtain removed the W-E relations got better for a time, which would have offered him plenty of opportunity to further develop his country.
It would have been in our (EU) interest as well.
Maybe a future trans-atlantic free-trade zone be better, Russia is just too unstable/irrational for trade policies or investments....
I did have the chance to watch some YouTube videos on the history of Russia going back to the times of the Tsars' and I thought in the USA we have separation of Church and State where as Church and Sate for Russia of old and of today is twisted.
Also I thought that because of Stalin the culture is also twisted and paranoid.
I was thinking that ( in theory ) Putin could be mentally ill and or dying so he is making his move to compete with the legacy of Stalin.
Putin is showing the world he doesn't care about the improvement of his Russia.
Putin may well be the richest man on the Earth so I assume to him money means nothing. Power and fame are the things he wants.
So, I read and understand your point but we may be looking at a man that is suffering from faltering mind. As you point out his "moves" are not rational. My point as well.


Ich hatte die Gelegenheit, einige YouTube-Videos über die Geschichte Russlands anzusehen, die bis in die Zarenzeit zurückreicht, und ich dachte, in den USA haben wir eine Trennung von Kirche und Staat, wo Kirche und Staat für das alte und heutige Russland gelten verdrehte.

Außerdem dachte ich, dass die Kultur wegen Stalin auch verdreht und paranoid ist.

Ich dachte, dass (theoretisch) Putin psychisch krank sein könnte und/oder sterben könnte, also macht er seinen Schritt, um mit dem Erbe von Stalin zu konkurrieren.

Putin zeigt der Welt, dass ihm die Verbesserung seines Russlands egal ist.

Putin ist vielleicht der reichste Mann der Welt, also nehme ich an, dass ihm Geld nichts bedeutet. Macht und Ruhm sind die Dinge, die er will.

Also, ich habe Ihren Punkt gelesen und verstanden, aber wir haben es vielleicht mit einem Mann zu tun, der an schwankendem Verstand leidet. Wie Sie betonen, sind seine "Bewegungen" nicht rational. Auch mein Punkt.
 

Friendly_Grower

Well-Known Member
Wait for the videos of war to emerge, especially if this gets drawn out, it's in Joe's interest to make this as painful for Vlad as he can. The Ukrainian pluck and courage has motivated a lot of help and Russia faltering militarily has encouraged many too and exposed fundamental weakness. The Ukrainians will die with the weapons we give them in their hands, nothing will be given up but urban rubble fields.

Vlad went to Defcon2, a sign of weakness or madness or both.
If I understood the Sunday News shows he only has put the "Staff" on high alert not the actual nuclear forces. There is a difference.
What I assume here is that his back end is exposed like a man in a hospital gown tied loosely in back.
That is why he is barking at NATO with nuclear threats. He knows he is vulnerable.
As I was talking to Kassiopeija it looks like NATO is organizing to add Sweden and Finland so that there is another reason Putin is flapping his tongue with nuclear war talk. He simply has to finish Ukraine before he can ( politically ) go after Finland and Sweden. He doesn't want NATO making a moive while he is unable to support war on three fronts.
 

djumbir

Well-Known Member
Yeah let’s not start that irrelevant whataboutism again. Instead, let us discuss the far more recent war crimes of Croatia, Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markač for example.
Crimes are made on all sides in all conflicts, and I am not defending these guys, they are war criminals. But you too must acknowledge that, too. There are no innocent sides in a conflict, almost never.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
If I understood the Sunday News shows he only has put the "Staff" on high alert not the actual nuclear forces. There is a difference.
What I assume here is that his back end is exposed like a man in a hospital gown tied loosely in back.
That is why he is barking at NATO with nuclear threats. He knows he is vulnerable.
As I was talking to Kassiopeija it looks like NATO is organizing to add Sweden and Finland so that there is another reason Putin is flapping his tongue with nuclear war talk. He simply has to finish Ukraine before he can ( politically ) go after Finland and Sweden. He doesn't want NATO making a moive while he is unable to support war on three fronts.
Sweden and Finland don't need much arming and can be incorporated into NATO's C&C overnight, they have been talking and cooperating for awhile. Norway is an immensely rich NATO member, a traditional friend of Sweden and could give them a trillion bucks without even blinking! The last time Russia tried invading Finland it didn't go so well!
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Crimes are made on all sides in all conflicts, and I am not defending these guys, they are war criminals. But you too must acknowledge that, too.
No I do not subscribe to the both sides are bad nonsense and whataboutisms. Russia is clearly the agressor in the current conflict, only a heavy dose of russian propaganda can blind someone from seeing that. War crimes and atrocities committed decades ago aren’t relevant in the way you try to make it. The real enemy and main reason for the instability in the world isn’t religion, energy, climate or w/e, it’s the lack of critical logical thinking and reasonable debate. It’s Russia’s and China’s and Trump’s main weapon. Spreading many skewed versions of the truth and using every known fallacy to fuck with the heads of people who are already intellectually challenged.

Playing devil’s advocate can be a valuable addition to any discussion but only if it’s done in a reasonable way.

There are no innocent sides in a conflict, almost never.
After you typed the first part of that sentence a few brain cells in your head protested, knowing it’s bs, hence the last two words. Regardless, it’s just rethoric, not a good representation of facts. Fact is, Russia is the agressor in the current war. At best one could argue the west didn’t handle the situation well over at least the past decade. That doesn’t make them guilty of Putin’s actions and escalations.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
War crimes and atrocities committed decades ago aren’t relevant
Oh but they are! The soviet Union has a past and it shows in eastern Europe and anywhere they occupied who are now NATO members! It also shows in western Europe and Germany starting with the WW2 liberation, installation of democratic governments and the Marshall plan. History matters, and the Russians have a dark past.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Oh but they are! The soviet Union has a past and it shows in eastern Europe and anywhere they occupied who are now NATO members! It also shows in western Europe and Germany starting with the WW2 liberation, installation of democratic governments and the Marshall plan. History matters, and the Russians have a dark past.
War crimes and atrocities committed decades ago aren’t relevant in the way you try to make it.
It’s like I said birds can’t fly on the moon and you respond “Oh but they can fly, they have wings!”.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
It’s like I said birds can’t fly on the moon and you respond “Oh but they can fly, they have wings!”.
The past matters, it matters to the people of eastern Europe and it matters to the people of the Ukraine who lost millions to Stalin's genocide. Apparently the past glories of the Soviet Union matter to Vlad, so yeah history matters, the past is prologue to the present and future. History is why we are where we are now, recent and from generations ago. We should pick the good from it, but never forget the past mistakes or we will relive them, history does not repeat but it often echoes and I'm seeing plenty of cold war echoes in Europe right now.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
The past matters, it matters to the people of eastern Europe and it matters to the people of the Ukraine who lost millions to Stalin's genocide. Apparently the past glories of the Soviet Union matter to Vlad, so yeah history matters, the past is prologue to the present and future. History is why we are where we are now, recent and from generations ago. We should pick the good from it, but never forget the past mistakes or we will relive them, history does not repeat but it often echoes and I'm seeing plenty of cold war echoes in Europe right now.
I didn’t say the past doesn’t matter… Context can be a tricky thing, so let me spell it out: you are arguing against my argument against irrelevant whaboutisms. Good luck with that!
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I didn’t say the past doesn’t matter… Context can be a tricky thing, so let me spell it out: you are arguing against my argument against irrelevant whaboutisms. Good luck with that!
I'm just commenting on the importance of history in general and I'm not really disagreeing with you. Too many conflicts are based on ancient maps and history that is not relevant to current events. However the key players in this drama, Vlad and the Ukrainians are driven largely by historical forces. Vlad didn't like how history turned out in 1989 and he wants to set thinks right, in his mind. After Stalin, the Ukrainian resistance and desire for self determination needs no explanation.
 

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
To the original question: should we have joined the fight to stop Hitler in 1939, when the Nazis invaded Poland? Before he ruined much of Europe, killed millions of people, and with his Axis buddies took a years-long dump on the world?

You’re fucking RIGHT we should have.
And we should do it now, if that’s what it takes to keep Pooti from following in Der Furor’s blood-and-destruction footsteps.

‘Course, Pootie has gone all Sun King on us - he’s already said ‘don’t interfere, I have nukes!’ So like the wicked witch of the west told us, “these things must be done delicately…”.

Fully agree with you. I think the US is obligated to assist any nation that is not an aggressor and is being invaded, no matter the cost.
Not exactly: the United States isn’t *actually* the world police, nor are they/we OBLIGATED to rush to the aid of any country with a problem. That doesn’t mean we/US never try to have an influence, we did organize NATO in the first place. NATO are obligated to assist any MEMBER nation…it is a mutual defense pact. Regarding other nations, they can, as an organization or as individual nations, choose to assist a nation that has asked for formal entry into NATO prior to being invaded, or otherwise act as the members agree.

There’s been a lot of bullshit over whether NATO broke a promise about recruiting in Eastern Europe, on Russia’s border with Europe; and in complete fairness, they/we have abided by a policy of NOT SEEKING old-Soviet states…but they never promised they’d reject a nation/applicant in order to keep Pootie happy.Russia is mad becauseUkraine is ON that border and Unkraine WANTS TO JOIN NATO.

In response to all this, both Sweden and Finland - traditionally neutral nations - have petitioned for entry into NATO. Finland has a LONG border with Russia…how’s that working out for ya, Pootie Poo?

BTW, this means that Pooti has the goal of making Europe knuckle under to the threat, this means we have a power-hungry mass-murderer-at-heart positioning himself to hold the world hostage to his will/whim/whatever. Not what I want to see…and with Pooti XIV doing the “après-moi, le DELUGE” dance, I can’t think anything positive about his state of mind or his intentions.

Maybe this began as a power play, specifically to pressure NATO, and to peel off more of Ukraine - either to get away with it or pull back; maybe he views Ukraine as an insolent colony grown too big for its britches, like Britain in the Americas - which puts Ukraine in the position of our founding heroes, fighting for their lives & their lands and families, just like our revered ancestors did against a real, no-shit INVADER with no particular history of being decent about things like invasion and occupation.

Too many are fascinated by bad guys, tyrants, serial killers, bullies, clever assholes, right down to commodity-grade smart-ass troublemakers. I think they admire people who just don’t give a shit about people, and that makes ‘celebrity badasses’ like Chump, Pootie, Hitler, Erdogan, and other high-profile serial killers glow *extra bright* in their diseased minds.

Any so-called, self-congratulatory ‘patriot’ whose heart doesn’t fucking BLOOM in sympathy and support for Ukraine, Ukrainians, and the current state of the invasion and resistance, is no fucking “patriot” AT ALL. Being a citizen doesn’t make one a patriot.

Anyway, hi
 

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
I'm just commenting on the importance of history in general and I'm not really disagreeing with you. Too many conflicts are based on ancient maps and history that is not relevant to current events. However the key players in this drama, Vlad and the Ukrainians are driven largely by historical forces. Vlad didn't like how history turned out in 1989 and he wants to set thinks right, in his mind. After Stalin, the Ukrainian resistance and desire for self determination needs no explanation.
Well, Stalin AND the Nazis…looks like Ukrainians take to actual invasion the exact same way I imagine I would - the way I imagine a lot of us imagine we would. Probably why Pooti put so much time, effort, and resources into weaponizing social media to lead many millions into betraying their own nation, their own principles, their friends and family under the guise of “true American patriotism”: an actual, physical invasion would have gone very badly.
 

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
When I was a boy, world was better spot
What was so was so, what was not was not
Now, I am a man, world have changed a lot
Some things nearly so, others nearly not

There are times I almost think
I am not sure of what I absolutely know
Very often find confusion
In conclusion, I concluded long ago



I kind of agree with you but the old school US was still vile in some ways, just not as much as our enemies back then. So, maybe 60/40? Most fought for what was right and many fought for other less worthy reasons? Kind of like today, when most don't support Trump and his fascists while a large minority do.

This whole shitstorm between US-NATO and Russia with Ukraine as a proxy conflict makes the GOP and their pro-Russian stance look pretty bad.
Nice verse - thanks for the drop!
 
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