Sanders is the strongest candidate against Trump in 2020

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
Obama wasn't actually that great, economically speaking. In regard to the country itself, there are essentially two economies; the fake one and the real one. The fake one is everything that's most apparent; government services up and running, no shutdowns, etc. The real one is the bottom line, what's sustainable, whether or not we're cash positive, whether or not we're able to save, and of course how much we owe.

Our real economy has been going to shit for decades and the problem is so large now that it's nearly unfixable just because of the time it would take relative to presidential term limits. Clinton just started changing the trend in eight years, so you'd really need like a half dozen of like-minded two-term presidents to work on it, which is incredibly unlikely to happen because there's always some Trump asshole that just wants to wave something shiny in front of the idiots while he lines his pockets. There'd always be some big fear going on where we need to dump money into this or that, pretty much anything that isn't what it should be.

California problems, Arkansas problems, nationwide problems, are all exactly reflective of ourselves. The job requires a surgeon, but these people aren't surgeons. They're average Joe's off the street that the masses think would make good surgeons. They're wrong. You want to fix problems? Hire experts actually trained in...effing something, because this "fog the mirror" shit isn't working.
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Because "Obama didn't correct all of society's ills from the previous 50 years all by himself". I that your reason why he wasn't great? For all of 7 1/2 weeks he was president at a time that Republicans couldn't veto his efforts. Despite their obstruction, the 111th Congress was among the most active in history and the most productive since the 1960's. (source)

Republicans were honest about their objective to make Obama fail. They failed at that. Obama was very productive, especially when compared with his predecessor and his successor. Then came the know nothing Sanders movement. They don't care about facts.

Sanders and his followers have it wrong. In 2016, Sanders saw his only chance at winning the nomination against Clinton was to run Obama's administration down. So, he ran against the ACA. He ran against Obama's record on immigration reform. He ran against Obama's excellent record on the economy. Of course, he was just doing what any mediocre politician does, which is to make his opponent look bad instead of actually being the best. Sanders lost by a whopping large margin. His followers have created their own false conspiracy theories to avoid facing the truth of Sanders ineptitude. But really, Sanders has been a completely inept and unproductive Senator. His only chance at winning required making tearing down others to his level. The only surprising part of that story is anybody believed him.

You want to fix problems? Vote Democrats in.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
HashBucket said:
You got THAT shit right.
Hit right on the nose.

Prop 13 is one of the worst laws ever passed. But, bad laws are often a result of bad practices.

BEFORE prop 13, the County Commissioners would let the tax collector know how much money they needed. The Tax Collector would compute how much value he needed and communicate that to the Assessors Office. The Assessors Office would apply tables to real property 'values' based on the needs of the government, and send the amounts to the Tax Collector for collections. People with paid off houses were losing them to tax bills. The People revolted.

Why is it a bad law?
Lets look at two situations. Young couple buys a two bedroom house for $200k. Their tax base is tied to the original purchase price and they pay about 1% or $2k per year in taxes. In five years they've filled it up with kids and need a bigger place. Inflation and other factors means they sell their home for $250k five years later, and buy a $400k three bedroom, two bath. Now their taxes are $4k per year. Their taxes have doubled in five years.
The other situation is Chevron Corp, running a processing facility in Richmond, California. It was built in 1976 and has a prop 13 protected tax base of $400 million. But, the assessed value never goes up. They paying taxes as though they've owned it for 40 years, but have they? If their stocks turn over 80% every six months .. hasn't it been sold? Shouldn't it be reassessed? Prop 13 says it can't be.
So, the young couple are paying a MUCH higher tax rate than Chevron.

I sorely mistrust government ... no matter who's in power.
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LOL

Prop 13 was the worst thing to happen to California and Republicans are why it came to be. Prop 13 cut spending without care for the value of the work done with that money. It is an example of why Republicans should never get close to the levers of power.
 
M

mooray

Well-Known Member
I like Obama and I said "economically speaking", so I don't understand the "all of society's ills" part. He said he wanted to close Guantanamo and that was something I cared about. I don't like the idea of morals being relative to geography and we send people there so we can do unconstitutional things to them. I don't like that shit. He didn't close it. He also killed his fair share of innocent people in the middle east and I'm not a fan of that either. Still, I think he was a decent guy and a huge step above where we're at. He was in a tough spot and I don't fault him so much for what I believe are simply mistakes, as opposed to someone like Trump that's flat out malicious.
 
rkymtnman

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
No offense to the OP and Sky but I think Barnie would code out due to his failing ticker if they forgot to toast his salt bagel one morning.
 
H

HashBucket

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
LOL

Prop 13 was the worst thing to happen to California and Republicans are it came to be. Prop 13 cut spending without care for the value of the work done with that money. It is an example of why Republicans should never get close to the levers of power.
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Are you expecting me to disagree with you?

There are also good reasons to never let Democrats near the levers of power too.
Do you think that the Demos are any worse or better than the Repubs?

I mistrust government - it doesn't matter who's in power.
Do you trust government? What about if Demos are running the show - do you trust government then?
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
HashBucket said:
Are you expecting me to disagree with you?

There are also good reasons to never let Democrats near the levers of power too.
Do you think that the Demos are any worse or better than the Repubs?

I mistrust government - it doesn't matter who's in power.
Do you trust government? What about if Demos are running the show - do you trust government then?
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You just got done telling us how great life is under the guy that bragged about walking in on unsuspecting naked underage children and who praised neo nazis after they murdered someone

Now you want us to believe your “I hate both sides!” bullshit?

God what a boring and stupid act to put on
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
I like Obama and I said "economically speaking", so I don't understand the "all of society's ills" part. He said he wanted to close Guantanamo and that was something I cared about. I don't like the idea of morals being relative to geography and we send people there so we can do unconstitutional things to them. I don't like that. He didn't close it. He also killed his fair share of innocent people in the middle east and I'm not a fan of that either. Still, I think he was a decent guy and a huge step above where we're at. He was in a tough spot and I don't fault him so much for what I believe are simply mistakes, as opposed to someone like Trump that's flat out malicious.
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Congress prevented Obama from relocating Guantanamo inmates to the US.

Are you trying to gaslight like a Republican?

Do I have to re-post your post? You most specifically said it was Obama's fault that there are "two economies" because he didn't end a problem that existed for half a century before he became president. I'll just re-post what you said:

mooray said:
Obama wasn't actually that great, economically speaking. In regard to the country itself, there are essentially two economies; the fake one and the real one. The fake one is everything that's most apparent; government services up and running, no shutdowns, etc. The real one is the bottom line, what's sustainable, whether or not we're cash positive, whether or not we're able to save, and of course how much we owe.
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So, yeah, Obama didn't fix all of our economy's ills. He did come into office in the teeth of the second worst recession in a hundred years and we came out of his term in office with five successive years of both economic growth AND five successive years of reductions in the deficit. You carp because he didn't fix everything. You only carp about what could have been as if what you believe is true.

Sanders and his followers (you, perhaps?) can try to run Obama down as much as you want but the facts don't change. Obama made very few mistakes. One can objectively say Obama was the best president since Kennedy if not Roosevelt.
 
M

mooray

Well-Known Member
I mean, you don't make promises you can't keep and you don't make promises for things that aren't your decision. When he says he's going to do something I care about and then doesn't, I'm going to count that as an unkept promise for the person that made it. It's not the end of the world and I said I like Obama, so I'm not sure why you seem to be taking offense to it.

Feel free to re-post, I most certainly did not say that Obama had anything to do with two economies. I said there are two economies. The existence of the actual economy and the perceived economy have nothing to do with Obama. I care about the deficit and debt. Obama added to the debt. Yes, he was dealt a tough hand.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
HashBucket said:
Are you expecting me to disagree with you?

There are also good reasons to never let Democrats near the levers of power too.
Do you think that the Demos are any worse or better than the Repubs?

I mistrust government - it doesn't matter who's in power.
Do you trust government? What about if Demos are running the show - do you trust government then?
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What you are voicing is cynicism, not mistrust.

I pointed out to you that Republican initiatives are why California is in the face enormous economic and environmental issues. You talk about nameless, faceless Democrats as though they are same as Republicans. Well, Jerry Brown is not the same as Arnold fucking Schwarzenegger or Pete Wilson. Instead of just saying you mistrust Democrats, name one or any combination of initiatives that came anywhere even close to the damage that just the Republican-sponsored Prop 13 caused. Name names or identify actions.

"Do (I) trust government?". That's a poorly worded and loaded question. Not worth responding to. Name names. Can I trust a person? Yes I can.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
I mean, you don't make promises you can't keep and you don't make promises for things that aren't your decision. When he says he's going to do something I care about and then doesn't, I'm going to count that as an unkept promise for the person that made it. It's not the end of the world and I said I like Obama, so I'm not sure why you seem to be taking offense to it.

Feel free to re-post, I most certainly did not say that Obama had anything to do with two economies. I said there are two economies. The existence of the actual economy and the perceived economy have nothing to do with Obama. I care about the deficit and debt. Obama added to the debt. Yes, he was dealt a tough hand.
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"you don't make promises you can't keep"

Really? So, it's Obama's fault that in 2008 he didn't know that in 2015, Republicans with cooperation from most Senate Democrats would end his initiative to move Guantanamo inmates to high security prisons in the US.

2016 Sanders promised free healthcare and free college. LOL

I haven't kept all the promises I ever made. Does that make me untrustworthy?
 
M

mooray

Well-Known Member
You're being hypersensitive and inferring things on your own and then blaming me for them. But, let me show you how this works, "dear RIU users, I promise you that Fogdog will send you all an ounce of weed every Friday for the rest of your lives".

Now, did I make a promise I couldn't keep, or is it your fault for not delivering?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
I care about the deficit and debt. Obama added to the debt. Yes, he was dealt a tough hand.
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After getting the US out of the worst recession in a hundred years, Obama's administration went on to reduce the deficit five years in a row.

Need I remind you that one can't reduce their debt unless one spends less than they earn? Obama had us on the path to fiscal sanity until Republicans re-took power. They now have us trillions deeper in debt.

you: aha, Democrats untrustworthy. so naive.
 
M

mooray

Well-Known Member
Reducing the deficit is good, but debt grew. It's such a huge problem that, like I said, it'll take a half dozen like-minded two-term presidents to address. This should scare you. This country is going to default and all this cute internet and weed growing isn't going to mean anything.

Also, the bailout was Bush's plan and Obama followed through with it. I heavily disagree with the bailout. Our economy is propped up on hot air and the bigger they are, the harder they fall.
 
rkymtnman

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
After getting the US out of the worst recession in a hundred years, Obama's administration went on to reduce the deficit five years in a row.

Need I remind you that one can't reduce their debt unless one spends less than they earn? Obama had us on the path to fiscal sanity until Republicans re-took power. They now have us trillions deeper in debt.

you: aha, Democrats untrustworthy. so naive.
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At least Obama knew that you couldn't reduce the national debt to zero by just printing more money. See Gary Cohn resposnse to Trump re: how this is not how things work.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
You're being hypersensitive and inferring things on your own and then blaming me for them. But, let me show you how this works, "dear RIU users, I promise you that Fogdog will send you all an ounce of weed every Friday for the rest of your lives".

Now, did I make a promise I couldn't keep, or is it your fault for not delivering?
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Deflecting like a pro.

Stick to your own question. You asked if I could "trust government" and I said I can trust people. Name names. Who in government should I not trust? Jerry Brown was a great governor, btw.
 
M

mooray

Well-Known Member
Show me where I asked that.

You can't, because I didn't and you're so spun up in your own thoughts that you can't hear what I'm saying and you're mixing me up with someone else.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
Reducing the deficit is good, but debt grew. It's such a huge problem that, like I said, it'll take a half dozen like-minded two-term presidents to address. This should scare you. This country is going to default and all this cute internet and weed growing isn't going to mean anything.

Also, the bailout was Bush's plan and Obama followed through with it. I heavily disagree with the bailout. Our economy is propped up on hot air and the bigger they are, the harder they fall.
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You keep searching for reasons to assign blame without knowing causes. Congress writes the budget, not the president. What programs should Congress have cut in order to balance the budget? Do you understand what you are saying?

Obama managed the government through the worst financial crisis in a hundred years. He oversaw our recovery and cut the deficit. If you were honest about being critical about government, you should be talking about Republican actions.
 
M

mooray

Well-Known Member
Dude I'd love to, but you keep getting worked up about anything that doesn't sound glowing about Obama. You wanna talk about the republican tax plan? I mean, it's the biggest scam in history.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
I mean, you don't make promises you can't keep and you don't make promises for things that aren't your decision. When he says he's going to do something I care about and then doesn't, I'm going to count that as an unkept promise for the person that made it. It's not the end of the world and I said I like Obama, so I'm not sure why you seem to be taking offense to it.

Feel free to re-post, I most certainly did not say that Obama had anything to do with two economies. I said there are two economies. The existence of the actual economy and the perceived economy have nothing to do with Obama. I care about the deficit and debt. Obama added to the debt. Yes, he was dealt a tough hand.
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Goddamn how many more sock puppets are gonna try this same lame fucking act
 
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