Reverse Engineering everyone's nutrients

MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
I added a few more Canna Products, including Coco and PK 13/14.

I've got a big list I've built up and I've finally got some extra time to work on this, so there will be some more products done. I will also be revisiting a lot of products in an effort to make sure they are more accurate. I will also be reformatting everything like the current Canna page.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
I added a few more Canna Products, including Coco and PK 13/14.

I've got a big list I've built up and I've finally got some extra time to work on this, so there will be some more products done. I will also be revisiting a lot of products in an effort to make sure they are more accurate. I will also be reformatting everything like the current Canna page.
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Where do I find the Canna page?
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
I was asking about YOUR Canna page, lol
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You're so utterly hopeless. It took you a half year of boasting what you were going to (talk talk talk) do just to put together a few lamps. (not impressive at all, meanwhile, everyone else cuts the bullshit and just does it)

Even with all the hand-holding in the world... you struggle through everything...

It would have been funny had you tried growing with the ironless canna formulas... but on the other hand, people would have saw your failure as vindication that DIY nutes is too hard rather than you being naive and incompetent.

Yet here you are, acting like an arrogant shit while asking for this guy to spoonfeed you another questionable reverse engineered recipe rather than figuring out wtf you're doing and learning the basics.

Rude as hell too...
 
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ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
You're so utterly hopeless. It took you a half year of boasting what you were going to (talk talk talk) do just to put together a few lamps. (not impressive at all, meanwhile, everyone else cuts the bullshit and just does it)

Even with all the hand-holding in the world... you struggle through everything...

It would have been funny had you tried growing with the ironless canna formulas... but on the other hand, people would have saw your failure as vindication that DIY nutes is too hard rather than you being naive and incompetent.

Yet here you are, acting like an arrogant shit while asking for this guy to spoonfeed you another questionable reverse engineered recipe rather than figuring out wtf you're doing and learning the basics.

Rude as hell too...
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I'M RUDE? I've never EVER spoken to you like you just did to me.

I don't care what you might have to offer; I'm done with you.

IGNORE. Until you grow up and learn how to quit being an asshole. I won't be holding my breath.
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
You're so utterly hopeless. It took you a half year of boasting what you were going to (talk talk talk) do just to put together a few lamps. (not impressive at all, meanwhile, everyone else cuts the bullshit and just does it)

Even with all the hand-holding in the world... you struggle through everything...

It would have been funny had you tried growing with the ironless canna formulas... but on the other hand, people would have saw your failure as vindication that DIY nutes is too hard rather than you being naive and incompetent.

Yet here you are, acting like an arrogant shit while asking for this guy to spoonfeed you another questionable reverse engineered recipe rather than figuring out wtf you're doing and learning the basics.

Rude as hell too...
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Right now, you're being the rude one.

You spend a lot of time talking about DIY fertilizers and how we all don't know what we're doing. I know you made a short post in DIY about using Hydrobuddy, which is valuable, and I know it's meant to help. But instead of berating people all the time, why don't you take a step back and try and help them?

Be positive about everything.

We're all here to learn. So lets not inflate our egos and actually teach what we know to other people. We were all idiots once. We all didn't know how to properly search for things once. So lets not be assholes about it, eh?

Additionally, I think you're right to question these recipes. Anyone should be. I am more than happy to admit I'm wrong about something, as I did earlier on the Canna Products. I originally listed something wrong due to poor information. I corrected myself and I hope others will notice that. I also implore you to check my results. If no one is willing to check, either with a lab analysis or anything else, then this community can't advance this resource. If we all think nutrient companies have ridiculous margins and are out to exploit us consumers, then a resource like this is a great way to stick it to em.

ttystikk said:
I was asking about YOUR Canna page, lol
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Churchaze was right here, I did sort of have to spoon feed you this. Regardless, here you go.

https://www.open-salt.com/fertilizer-database/

 
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
Okay so let me see if I have this correct. I currently make a 3 part stock solution:
Part A = Mono Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Nitrate
Part B = Calcium Nitrate, "MOST" (trace element mix, which is to be replaced)
Part C = Agsil
I don't make a stock solution for humic, fulvic, and ferti-Nitro(amino acids) I just mix it fresh as needed.

So the 8 trace elements required are Iron, Boron, Copper, Manganese, Molybdenum , Zinc, Cobalt, and Nickel. (there's also Sulfur and Magnesium but these can come from the other salts.

In Stock A (sulfates + phosphates) would go, Boron (solubor), Molybdenum (sodium molybdate), and the trace sulfates - Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Nickel Sulfate Hexahydrate

In Stock B (Calcium Nitrate) would go Iron EDTA (AquaIron), Cobalt Nitrate Hexahydrate

I didn't pair anything with the Agsil because Agsil doesn't seem to play well with others.

Did I categorize those properly into the correct stock solutions for maximum sulubility?

Edit: I just realized that most of these trace elements are sulfates, not EDTA, they don't seem to have EDTA varieties on customhydronutrients. Does anyone have a good cheap source for EDTA trace elements?
 
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C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Redoctober said:
Okay so let me see if I have this correct. I currently make a 3 part stock solution:
Part A = Mono Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Nitrate
Part B = Calcium Nitrate, "MOST" (trace element mix, which is to be replaced)
Part C = Agsil
I don't make a stock solution for humic, fulvic, and ferti-Nitro(amino acids) I just mix it fresh as needed.

So the 8 trace elements required are Iron, Boron, Copper, Manganese, Molybdenum , Zinc, Cobalt, and Nickel. (there's also Sulfur and Magnesium but these can come from the other salts.

In Stock A (sulfates + phosphates) would go, Boron (solubor), Molybdenum (sodium molybdate), and the trace sulfates - Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Nickel Sulfate Hexahydrate

In Stock B (Calcium Nitrate) would go Iron EDTA (AquaIron), Cobalt Nitrate Hexahydrate

I didn't pair anything with the Agsil because Agsil doesn't seem to play well with others.

Did I categorize those properly into the correct stock solutions for maximum sulubility?

Edit: I just realized that most of these trace elements are sulfates, not EDTA, they don't seem to have EDTA varieties on customhydronutrients. Does anyone have a good cheap source for EDTA trace elements?
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Cobalt and Nickel aren't required at all. I'd just forget about them entirely. (not needed)
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
Redoctober said:
Okay so let me see if I have this correct. I currently make a 3 part stock solution:
Part A = Mono Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Nitrate
Part B = Calcium Nitrate, "MOST" (trace element mix, which is to be replaced)
Part C = Agsil
I don't make a stock solution for humic, fulvic, and ferti-Nitro(amino acids) I just mix it fresh as needed.

So the 8 trace elements required are Iron, Boron, Copper, Manganese, Molybdenum , Zinc, Cobalt, and Nickel. (there's also Sulfur and Magnesium but these can come from the other salts.

In Stock A (sulfates + phosphates) would go, Boron (solubor), Molybdenum (sodium molybdate), and the trace sulfates - Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Nickel Sulfate Hexahydrate

In Stock B (Calcium Nitrate) would go Iron EDTA (AquaIron), Cobalt Nitrate Hexahydrate

I didn't pair anything with the Agsil because Agsil doesn't seem to play well with others.

Did I categorize those properly into the correct stock solutions for maximum sulubility?

Edit: I just realized that most of these trace elements are sulfates, not EDTA, they don't seem to have EDTA varieties on customhydronutrients. Does anyone have a good cheap source for EDTA trace elements?
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You probably won't need cobalt or nickel fertilizers. If you're in soil, there's going to be enough. If you're using tap water, there's going to be enough. If you're in hydro, the plants will make do without it. So, two things you don't need to worry about. You may also be able to eschew sodium molybdate if you're using tap water or growing in soil.

You probably don't need to make a stock solution for your potassium silicate either. Unless you're having trouble weighing small enough amounts.

I would move Magnesium Nitrate to Part B, with Calcium Nitrate. They both have super high solubility numbers and are compatible at all levels. It just reduces the chances of a magnesium phosphate precipitating out in Part A.

If you need EDTA chelated micronutrients, you can try cropking, ebay, etc.
 
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
You probably won't need cobalt or nickel fertilizers. If you're in soil, there's going to be enough. If you're using tap water, there's going to be enough. If you're in hydro, the plants will make do without it. So, two things you don't need to worry about. You may also be able to eschew sodium molybdate if you're using tap water or growing in soil.

You probably don't need to make a stock solution for your potassium silicate either. Unless you're having trouble weighing small enough amounts.

I would move Magnesium Nitrate to Part B, with Calcium Nitrate. They both have super high solubility numbers and are compatible at all levels. It just reduces the chances of a magnesium phosphate precipitating out in Part A.

If you need EDTA chelated micronutrients, you can try cropking, ebay, etc.
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Thanks MisterBlah! I will change the stock solutions. Potassium Sulfate is kind of stubborn. It dissolves in water, but turns the solution cloudy - permanently. I assume this is normal though.

As for the EDTA chelates, I went on cropking as you suggested and this is what their website has to say on the topic of chelates:

"In addition to the above main elements, micronutrients are also needed by plants, but in smaller quantities. These can be supplied in a concentrate mix that is then added to the sulphate fertilizer tank. Manganese, copper, and zinc can be supplied in the sulphate form. Some growers may use one or more of these nutrients in the chloride form, arguing that not much chloride is introduced to the fertilizer program from the comparatively small amount of micronutrient. Other growers use one or more of the nutrients in the EDTA chelated form. This is not a good idea for two reasons: 1) the EDTA is toxic to plants, and 2) the elements in chelated form can move around based on the preference of the chelating agent, making their distribution to the plants unpredictable. For this reason, using chelated manganese, copper, and zinc should be avoided."

What are your thoughts?
Cropking doesn't even carry the EDTA versions, I guess they don't believe they are safe.
Is there any drawback to just using the sulfate versions of the traces?
 
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MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
Redoctober said:
Thanks MisterBlah! I will change the stock solutions. Potassium Sulfate is kind of stubborn. It dissolves in water, but turns the solution cloudy - permanently. I assume this is normal though.

As for the EDTA chelates, I went on cropking as you suggested and this is what their website has to say on the topic of chelates:

"In addition to the above main elements, micronutrients are also needed by plants, but in smaller quantities. These can be supplied in a concentrate mix that is then added to the sulphate fertilizer tank. Manganese, copper, and zinc can be supplied in the sulphate form. Some growers may use one or more of these nutrients in the chloride form, arguing that not much chloride is introduced to the fertilizer program from the comparatively small amount of micronutrient. Other growers use one or more of the nutrients in the EDTA chelated form. This is not a good idea for two reasons: 1) the EDTA is toxic to plants, and 2) the elements in chelated form can move around based on the preference of the chelating agent, making their distribution to the plants unpredictable. For this reason, using chelated manganese, copper, and zinc should be avoided."

What are your thoughts?
Cropking doesn't even carry the EDTA versions, I guess they don't believe they are safe.
Is there any drawback to just using the sulfate versions of the traces?
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EDTA is NOT toxic to plants. It is the most common chelating agent in the world. If it was truly toxic to plants, we wouldn't be using it in the quantities that we are.

Chemical compatibility is basically the reason why chelated nutrients are beneficial. It is easier to use them in stock solutions that vary more in pH and vary more in chemical make up.
 
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
EDTA is NOT toxic to plants. It is the most common chelating agent in the world. If it was truly toxic to plants, we wouldn't be using it in the quantities that we are.

Chemical compatibility is basically the reason why chelated nutrients are beneficial. It is easier to use them in stock solutions that vary more in pH and vary more in chemical make up.
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hmm...I guess for now Cropking can go suck it! I'll have to do a little bit more research. I'll see if I can track down the EDTA versions through amazon or eBay. I haven't had much success so far.
There seem to be lots of chemical company type product information websites out there but not a lot of retailers.

This would be one example of say chelated Manganese: http://www.avachemicals.net/edta-manganese.html

All I want is an "add to cart" button haha!
 
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
Do you guys think this kelp extract might be an acceptable source of trace elements? -
(https://customhydronutrients.com/cytoplus-300-grams-p-465.html?cPath=75_326_327_329&zenid=be622eab91349b63a0fd2e66e8c8257a)

They are not the EDTA versions, but it might save me a few bucks on trace micros since I plan on using this anyway
Here is the guaranteed analysis:
  • Soluble Potash (K2O)......7.5%
  • Boron (B)...............0.25%
  • Manganese (Mn)..........0.8%
  • Cobalt (Co)........... 0.035%
  • Molybdenum (Mo)........0.05%
  • Copper (Cu).......... 0.13%
  • Sulfur (S)......................3.25%
  • Iron (Fe).................0.9%
  • Zinc (Zn).......................0.5%
  • Non-plant food ingredients: Humic acid 38% and Fulvic Acid 9%, Seaweed Extract 25% (derived from Ascophyllum Nodosum)
  • Derived From: Boron, cobalt sulfate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, sodium molybdate, zinc sulfate, and chelated with humic and fulvic acids (derived from fresh water cretaceous humate deposits) and mannitol
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
Redoctober said:
Do you guys think this kelp extract might be an acceptable source of trace elements? -
(https://customhydronutrients.com/cytoplus-300-grams-p-465.html?cPath=75_326_327_329&zenid=be622eab91349b63a0fd2e66e8c8257a)

They are not the EDTA versions, but it might save me a few bucks on trace micros since I plan on using this anyway
Here is the guaranteed analysis:
  • Soluble Potash (K2O)......7.5%
  • Boron (B)...............0.25%
  • Manganese (Mn)..........0.8%
  • Cobalt (Co)........... 0.035%
  • Molybdenum (Mo)........0.05%
  • Copper (Cu).......... 0.13%
  • Sulfur (S)......................3.25%
  • Iron (Fe).................0.9%
  • Zinc (Zn).......................0.5%
  • Non-plant food ingredients: Humic acid 38% and Fulvic Acid 9%, Seaweed Extract 25% (derived from Ascophyllum Nodosum)
  • Derived From: Boron, cobalt sulfate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, sodium molybdate, zinc sulfate, and chelated with humic and fulvic acids (derived from fresh water cretaceous humate deposits) and mannitol
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That is a blend, and not just a kelp fertilizer. Although kelp will have micronutrients in it. But it's definitely an acceptable micro mix. You will see benefits from the Humic acids and seaweed extract as well.

Directly feeding, you'll want to use that at about 0.2g/L. A 100x stock solution would be fine for that as well. 20g/L in the stock solution and use 10mL/L (38mL/gallon)
 
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
That is a blend, and not just a kelp fertilizer. Although kelp will have micronutrients in it. But it's definitely an acceptable micro mix. You will see benefits from the Humic acids and seaweed extract as well.

Directly feeding, you'll want to use that at about 0.2g/L. A 100x stock solution would be fine for that as well. 20g/L in the stock solution and use 10mL/L (38mL/gallon)
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I think I'm going to go that rout at the moment rather than getting all of the individual trace elements. I can always reevaluate if I see any deficiencies.

Would it be overkill to add humic and fulvic powders on top of what is already included in this kelp blend in your opinion?

I have read that humic and kelp is optimal in a 5:2 ratio especially for foliar application. Fulvic too apparently helps clones root when applied in a foliar spray.
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
Redoctober said:
I think I'm going to go that rout at the moment rather than getting all of the individual trace elements. I can always reevaluate if I see any deficiencies.

Would it be overkill to add humic and fulvic powders on top of what is already included in this kelp blend in your opinion?

I have read that humic and kelp is optimal in a 5:2 ratio especially for foliar application. Fulvic too apparently helps clones root when applied in a foliar spray.
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You'll be fine with what's there.

There isn't a scientifically optimal ratio of humates to kelp. You need neither to grow plants. You will do fine with one and without the other. You will do best with both. Just have both. That blend has both.
 
klx

klx

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
I've also updated the website as well, but here is Aqua Flores and Vega.

Comparable to AQUA FLORES A/B Combined

Mix each at 3ml/l of water or 2.33 tbsp/gallon (2 tablespoons + 1 teaspoon per gallon)

Part A
Magnesium Nitrate: 112.90 g/l
Calcium Nitrate: 89.40 g/l
Fe-EDTA 13%: 4.61 g/l

Part B
Potassium Sulfate: 101.20 g/l
Potassium Nitrate: 82.10 g/l
Mono Potassium Phosphate: 54.80 g/l
Mono Ammonium Phosphate: 24.10 g/l
Magnesium Sulfate: 12.70 g/l
Potassium Silicate: 2.84 g/l
Mn-EDTA 13%: 2.30 g/l
Zn-EDTA 13%: 0.77 g/l
SolUBor: 0.50 g/l
Cu-EDTA 14%: 0.14 g/l
Sodium Molybdate: 0.077 g/l

Comparable to AQUA VEGA A/B Combined

Mix each at 3ml/l of water or 2.33 tbsp/gallon (2 tablespoons + 1 teaspoon per gallon)

Part A
CAN-27 (Calcium Ammonium Nitrate)89.20 g/l
Calcium Nitrate: 86.40 g/l
Magnesium Nitrate: 85.60 g/l
Fe-EDTA 13%: 3.84 g/l

Potassium Nitrate: 108.30 g/l
Potassium Sulfate: 61.10 g/l
Mono Potassium Phosphate: 53.30 g/l
Potassium Silicate: 2.03 g/l
Mn-EDTA 13%: 1.54 g/l
Zn-EDTA 13%: 0.54 g/l
SolUBor: 0.35 g/l
Sodium Molybdate: 0.07 g/l
Cu-EDTA 14%: 0.05 g/l

What do you mean by “comparable”?
When I say comparable to, I mean the actual end result will be the same. Most of these products come with instructions to use part A and part B, together. That is, you should never used them individually. So, while what I list as a Part A and B might actually be slightly different, after you’ve mixed your final nutrient solution, it will come out identical.
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Thanks again for the effort. Shopping list got a bit longer but no worries.

For any Aussies looking for EDTA chelates, a good supplier is these guys as they have most of em and Norco is a distributor - http://www.campbellsfert.com.au/edta-chelate.aspx

Yiew!
 
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