Portland residents prepare yet again to confront fascists from out of state

xtsho said:
Both sides hate the First Amendment when someone's saying something they don't like.
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Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.”

- Robert A. Heinlein
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/...ts-china-disinformation-facebook-twitter.html

SAN FRANCISCO — China has adopted Russia’s playbook for spreading disinformation on Facebook and Twitter, deploying those tactics in its increasingly heated information war over the protests that have convulsed Hong Kong.

In recent weeks, Facebook and Twitter accounts that originated in China acted in a coordinated fashion to amplify messages and images that portrayed Hong Kong’s protesters as violent and extreme, the two social media companies said on Monday. On Facebook, one recent post from a China-linked account likened the protesters to ISIS fighters. And a Twitter message said, “We don’t want you radical people in Hong Kong. Just get out of here!”

Facebook and Twitter said they had now removed the accounts, the first time that the social media companies have had to take down accounts linked to disinformation in China.
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Sound familiar?

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A screenshot via Facebook of a fake account involved in coordinated inauthentic behavior. It says “Protesters. ISIS fighters. What’s the difference?”Credit via Facebook
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A screenshot via Twitter of a fake account that Twitter said originated within China as a state-backed operation to sow political discord.Creditvia Twitter
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Twitter said it would give state-sponsored media a month to leave its advertising platform before its ban on promoted tweets from state-backed media goes into effect. The ban expands on the company’s efforts to combat Russian disinformation. In 2017, Twitter banned RT and Sputnik, international news outlets supported by the Kremlin, from advertising on its service.

Unlike Twitter, Facebook said it would not ban ads from state-owned media. The company said it would “continue to look at our policies as they relate to state-owned media” and also closely examine ads that were flagged to it so it could determine if they violated its policies. China’s government, through its state media agencies, has been a big buyer of ads on Facebook, The New York Times has reported.
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But still they allow Trump to tweet his hateful lies....
 
hanimmal said:
But still they allow Trump to tweet his hateful lies....
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not just Trump either.

Huffpo is rabidly biased and I'm loath to post their stuff but damn they have it right in this article:

The Right, Desperate To Deflect Its Own Extremism, Cries ‘Antifa’
The conservative propaganda machine is trying to find acts of “antifa violence,” to ascribe their own issues with white nationalism and extremism to the left.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stuc...es-to-blame-antifa_n_5d5bf7f4e4b0f667ed68bbe9


This is the current conservative playbook: downplay bigotry and violence while blaming leftists, by parroting biased and misleading reporting and punditry. Often, the plays are executed by politicians like Trump or conservative congressmen ― the Tampa Bay Times last week reported on a memo from House Republicans offering guidance on how to refocus questions about white nationalism and imply that both sides are to blame.

Yet even as the far-right kill count rises, pundits are trying desperately to pin violence on antifa. Fox News dedicated at least 10 stories to “antifa” over the past five days; Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and other hosts stoked fears of antifa “extremism” with segments of their own; far-right blogger Andy Ngo, famous for getting punched at a previous extremist rally in Portland, tweeted several distortions of the truth to argue that protesters are more bloodthirsty than the fascist gangs they’re protesting.

Earlier posts from people claiming to live in Portland are examples of how well the propaganda program is working. We had more than 2,000 people out to stand against right wing fascists. 13 people were arrested. Nine people injured. One went to a hospital to be treated for minor injury. Zero would be better but really, about the same proportion of people get arrested, hurt or injured at rave music festivals. Yes, antifa aren't boy scouts. Still, the cry-wolf right makes a false comparison of antifa to Proud Boys when you consider that two Proud Boys were convicted for gang assault and rioting in New York yesterday. Three more were arrested in Portland for doing the same. No excuses, just saying people trying to paint antifa as some extremist organization look more like wilting violets when their claim of extremism is held up to the light for closer examination.

For example: Some black clad guy with his face covered came from behind to snatch a tiny US flag on a stick from the hands of a surprised right winger on Saturday. People laughed at the prank. The right winger cried "assault". xtsho talked about it as if a federal case was warranted. Nothing is said about how that right winger made his way across a police cordon that was formed to keep fascists separate from the people they came to Portland to fight. But oh the humanity, "my ten cent paper flag was snatched from my hands when I went into the crowd that I had previously told I was going to beat down." Didn't somebody mention snowflakes?

Meanwhile the fascist president gives cover for right wing hate crimes and the body count continues to climb.


Cry me a fucking river @xtsho
 
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The Irony is Real Protesters with skin in the game don't cover their face.

I don't know about Portland but in Berkley it looked like a traveling wrestling match of the 1800's, that included the public.
 
Grandpapy said:
The Irony is Real Protesters with skin in the game don't cover their face.

I don't know about Portland but in Berkley it looked like a traveling wrestling match of the 1800's, that included the public.
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As you say, the violence is totally clownish and more like a wrestling match. Anti-fascists don't train and practice fighting like the fascists do. Nor do they celebrate the violence like fascists do. The whole point is to make fascist violence look stupid. I'm glad you see it that way.

The masks antifa wear are to protect anti fascists from retribution. There are plenty of examples where people have become targets for violence simply for standing against fascism and being outed on the internet. Also, there is a long history of fascism in the Police department. Those masks are as much to protect local anti fascists from police as from Proud Boys.
 
Fogdog said:
As you say, the violence is totally clownish and more like a wrestling match. Anti-fascists don't train and practice fighting like the fascists do. Nor do they celebrate the violence like fascists do. The whole point is to make fascist violence look stupid. I'm glad you see it that way.

The masks antifa wear are to protect anti fascists from retribution. There are plenty of examples where people have become targets for violence simply for standing against fascism and being outed on the internet. Also, there is a long history of fascism in the Police department. Those masks are as much to protect local anti fascists from police as from Proud Boys.
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Protesting is a full time job, not just when you can hide from something. (dammit!)

But their striking presence and violence in the park on Aug. 27 — and their extraordinary secrecy — left many more wondering exactly who is behind the bandanas and under the hoods.https://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/09/11/antifa-behind-masks-berkeley

Yep, they have too much planning time. I guess that's the difference.

In my day the only masks worn were the kkk.
Interesting protesting photos without masks.
https://calisphere.org/exhibitions/43/the-free-speech-movement/

... There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious — makes you so sick at heart — that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement
 
Grandpapy said:
Protesting is a full time job, not just when you can hide from something. (dammit!)

But their striking presence and violence in the park on Aug. 27 — and their extraordinary secrecy — left many more wondering exactly who is behind the bandanas and under the hoods.https://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/09/11/antifa-behind-masks-berkeley

Yep, they have too much planning time. I guess that's the difference.

In my day the only masks worn were the kkk.
Interesting protesting photos without masks.
https://calisphere.org/exhibitions/43/the-free-speech-movement/

... There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious — makes you so sick at heart — that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement
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Mace/pepper sprays were invented in late 60's/early 70's. I don't think they were as used back then, especially not in such wide sale at stores. I think it makes sense to wear protective eye gear and masks at these counter-hate rallies.

And hell when I was a kid riding a bike looked like this:
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And look at these little future ANTIFA with all their armor.

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Grandpapy said:
Protesting is a full time job, not just when you can hide from something. (dammit!)

But their striking presence and violence in the park on Aug. 27 — and their extraordinary secrecy — left many more wondering exactly who is behind the bandanas and under the hoods.https://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/09/11/antifa-behind-masks-berkeley

Yep, they have too much planning time. I guess that's the difference.

In my day the only masks worn were the kkk.
Interesting protesting photos without masks.
https://calisphere.org/exhibitions/43/the-free-speech-movement/

... There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious — makes you so sick at heart — that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement
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You are being naive about the actions that the right take against people when they know where they live. The people who put their bodies on the line are quite reasonably withholding their identity from fascists. It is another form of resistance.

The good people of Portland, and there were thousands of them there who weren't wearing masks, are not the cause of that violence. Then again, what are you talking about when you say "violence" in the park on Aug. 27? The action in Portland was August 17th. I'll take it that you meant the 17th. As with Charlottesville, on the 17th of August, right wingers crossed the police cordon with the intent to fight with people who stood against fascism. They came to Portland from Florida and the east coast with the intent to cause much more violence than occurred too. We laughed at the goons for the most part. A few lost their cool. There is a few in every crowd.

In that crowd of 2000 people who showed up knowing about the threats that Proud Boys made to us, 13 were arrested, 9 hurt and 1 sent to the hospital for minor injuries. Those kind of numbers occur at every major rock concert. The claim of "violence on August 17" is inflated like the Trump baby balloon. Agree that none would be better. How about if Proud Boys had stayed within the perimeter set by the Police? Or better yet, had stayed home to demonstrate there? Place the blame where it really lies.

Also stop citing the right wing propaganda. Anti fascists are not to blame for the few incidents of violence that did occur last weekend.
 
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Fogdog said:
You are being naive about the actions that the right take against people when they know where they live. The people who put their bodies on the line are quite reasonably withholding their identity from fascists. It is another form of resistance.

The good people of Portland, and there were thousands of them there who weren't wearing masks, are not the cause of that violence. Then again, what are you talking about when you say "violence" in the park on Aug. 27? The action in Portland was August 17th. I'll take it that you meant the 17th. As with Charlottesville, on the 17th of August, right wingers crossed the police cordon with the intent to fight with people who stood against fascism. They came to Portland from Florida and the east coast with the intent to cause much more violence than occurred too. We laughed at the goons for the most part. A few lost their cool. There is a few in every crowd.

In that crowd of 2000 people who showed up knowing about the threats that Proud Boys made to us, 13 were arrested, 9 hurt and 1 sent to the hospital for minor injuries. Those kind of numbers occur at every major rock concert. The claim of "violence on August 17" is inflated like the Trump baby balloon. Agree that none would be better. How about if Proud Boys had stayed within the perimeter set by the Police? Or better yet, had stayed home to demonstrate there? Place the blame where it really lies.

Also stop citing the right wing propaganda. Anti fascists are not to blame for the few incidents of violence that did occur last weekend.
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No, not naive, although not my words but this was in the link as well:

Both the far right and far left “doxx” liberally, meaning they do research to identify their enemies, post their personal information online and often call their employers in hopes of getting them fired. The high-profile arrest of alleged antifascist organizer Eric Clanton after the April 15 rally, leading to charges for assaulting four people with a bike lock, can likely be traced back to thorough doxxing efforts on a far-right Internet forum, where users combed through photos from the rally and social media, using his perceived hairline position and height as clues. More recently, a worker at Top Dog who attended the rally in Charlottesville was “outed” on Twitter for his participation, leading to his resignation from the Berkeley restaurant.

so I understand.

I posted this earlier, (somewhere) Just food for thought.
Flashback to 1987…

ARA originally came out of the efforts of Minneapolis anti-racist Skinheads to create an organization that could combat the presence of nazi skinheads in that city and its neighboring city, St. Paul. The Baldies, a multi-racial skinhead crew, were fighting the Nazi skinhead group, the White Knights. If Baldies came across the nazis, then the nazis could expect to be attacked, or served some of what the Baldies called “Righteous Violence.”
https://torchantifa.org/history/

Like I said earlier, Here it looked liked a www promoted event.
 
Grandpapy said:
No, not naive, although not my words but this was in the link as well:

Both the far right and far left “doxx” liberally, meaning they do research to identify their enemies, post their personal information online and often call their employers in hopes of getting them fired. The high-profile arrest of alleged antifascist organizer Eric Clanton after the April 15 rally, leading to charges for assaulting four people with a bike lock, can likely be traced back to thorough doxxing efforts on a far-right Internet forum, where users combed through photos from the rally and social media, using his perceived hairline position and height as clues. More recently, a worker at Top Dog who attended the rally in Charlottesville was “outed” on Twitter for his participation, leading to his resignation from the Berkeley restaurant.

so I understand.

I posted this earlier, (somewhere) Just food for thought.
Flashback to 1987…

ARA originally came out of the efforts of Minneapolis anti-racist Skinheads to create an organization that could combat the presence of nazi skinheads in that city and its neighboring city, St. Paul. The Baldies, a multi-racial skinhead crew, were fighting the Nazi skinhead group, the White Knights. If Baldies came across the nazis, then the nazis could expect to be attacked, or served some of what the Baldies called “Righteous Violence.”
https://torchantifa.org/history/

Like I said earlier, Here it looked liked a www promoted event.
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Ok, so yes, some antifa have been violent. Yes that bike lock incident happened two years ago. Yet, here is the rub. The body count from fascist hate crimes is over a hundred just this year. Proud Boys seek and celebrate violence. Violence is their purpose. The injuries and hospitalizations inflicted upon Proud Boy opponents is an order of magnitude higher than that inflicted by anti fascists yet the number of Proud Boys who show up is a fraction of anti fascist crowds. Fascism is a violent political ideology. Antifa isn't at its core violent. We oppose fascism. We defend ourselves when we must. Also, Trump and his fascist cronies are itching to make political hay by classifying antifascism as a terrorist movement. He tried to paint us that way last weekend and from your post, he won the propaganda battle. But he's still lying. Any violence last weekend was due to actions made by fascists.

What is your argument anyway? First you decry violence then you promote it. Like I said, the antifascists in Portland don't want to fight. The only actions you saw on right wing propaganda media were mostly due to fascists who crossed police cordons to seek it. They provoke violence or initiate it. Rarely the other way around.

Don't give me the "both sides do it" argument. Lets not forget the reason the Aug. 17th demonstrations occurred. Fascists descended upon Portland from all over the country with the intent to do harm. So, fuck that "same on both sides" argument. All the blame, all the harm, all the arrests are on the heads of fascists. They planned this. Don't be their tool.
 
Fogdog said:
They planned this. Don't be their tool.
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Grandpapy said:
Like I said earlier, Here it looked liked a www promoted event.
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Yes I know, I haven't seen any of the events in Portland but I'll bet you it was a Proud boy dressed up as a antifa that got shit going.

They need a permit for free speech, The skinheads on the right want to talk to the skinheads on the left. (see history) Put them in an empty lot like the right does during presidential debates to "secure the public peace" easy peasy.

Can we agree the skinhead solution is likely to end bad.
You misunderstood me if you thought I was promoting anything violent or in favor of trump.
and for that I apologize.
 
Grandpapy said:
Yes I know, I haven't seen any of the events in Portland but I'll bet you it was a Proud boy dressed up as a antifa that got shit going.

They need a permit for free speech, The skinheads on the right want to talk to the skinheads on the left. (see history) Put them in an empty lot like the right does during presidential debates to "secure the public peace" easy peasy.

Can we agree the skinhead solution is likely to end bad.
You misunderstood me if you thought I was promoting anything violent or in favor of trump.
and for that I apologize.
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The Proud Boys on the right are supporters of authoritarian rule. I think the authoritarian left represented by the Sanders camp are quite possibly on the same wavelength as Trump's Proud Boys. We've even seen posts from that element of the left saying that Trump was the best thing that could have happened for them. Also posts from Sanders's so-called Progressives decrying "suppression of free speech" and acts of self defense when fascists go after people who simply won't step out of their way. Anti fascists are as anti-authoritarian as they are left. There isn't any intersection of interests between the authoritarian right fascists and the anti-fascist. Not in Portland, at any rate.

I don't think it would be helpful if anti-fascism became militant and planned to carry out violence like the radical right are doing. I agree that escalation of violence by anti-fascists would end badly. Fascists are already escalating violence. I think that is going to end badly too, once Trump's political cover for them is blown.

I have mixed thoughts about what you described in St Paul in the '80's. At that time, the status quo wasn't supporting neo-nazi skin heads like it is now. The battle for the streets that is said to have taken place wasn't nearly as political as it is today. So, it's an echo from the past you are hearing and not a direct comparison.

We are taking criticism from all sides, left and right for standing against fascists. I don't understand why the center or left are doing so. Our tactics are working. We foiled fascist plans to escalate violence, we have a Mayor who sees the writing on the wall if he doesn't work with us to stop the violence both from the goons but also the police. Oregon has very strong constitutional guarantees for free speech and Wheeler has yet to find a legal way to prevent permits for these events. He has made some attempts but the city council hasn't yet affirmed his legislation. I think its just a matter of time before we come up with a legally valid way to stop violent groups like Proud Boys from obtaining those permits. Just days before the goons came here, Portland police arrested three right leaders who caused violence in late May. It seems to have helped this time.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-oregon-protest-ordinance-ted-wheeler-city-council/

Arrests precede major demonstrations in Portland, Oregon
 
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Fogdog said:
The Proud Boys on the right are supporters of authoritarian rule. I think the authoritarian left represented by the Sanders camp are quite possibly on the same wavelength as Trump's Proud Boys. We've even seen posts from that element of the left saying that Trump was the best thing that could have happened for them. Also posts from Sanders's so-called Progressives decrying "suppression of free speech" and acts of self defense when fascists go after people who simply won't step out of their way. Anti fascists are as anti-authoritarian as they are left. There isn't any intersection of interests between the authoritarian right fascists and the anti-fascist. Not in Portland, at any rate.

I don't think it would be helpful if anti-fascism became militant and planned to carry out violence like the radical right are doing. I agree that escalation of violence by anti-fascists would end badly. Fascists are already escalating violence. I think that is going to end badly too, once Trump's political cover for them is blown.

I have mixed thoughts about what you described in St Paul in the '80's. At that time, the status quo wasn't supporting neo-nazi skin heads like it is now. The battle for the streets that is said to have taken place wasn't nearly as political as it is today. So, it's an echo from the past you are hearing and not a direct comparison.

We are taking criticism from all sides, left and right for standing against fascists. I don't understand why the center or left are doing so. Our tactics are working. We foiled fascist plans to escalate violence, we have a Mayor who sees the writing on the wall if he doesn't work with us to stop the violence both from the goons but also the police. Oregon has very strong constitutional guarantees for free speech and Wheeler has yet to find a legal way to prevent permits for these events. He has made some attempts but the city council hasn't yet affirmed his legislation. I think its just a matter of time before we come up with a legally valid way to stop violent groups like Proud Boys from obtaining those permits. Just days before the goons came here, Portland police arrested three right leaders who caused violence in late May. It seems to have helped this time.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-oregon-protest-ordinance-ted-wheeler-city-council/

Arrests precede major demonstrations in Portland, Oregon
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I hope the mayor gets the single vote he needs to limit when and where skinhead activity allowed. Perhaps in a few years when they mature and can demonstrate peaceably without causing public expense (hence free speech) but until then they need supervision.

Where is the Insurance lobbyist during these counsel meetings!
 
Fogdog said:
We are taking criticism from all sides, left and right for standing against fascists. I don't understand why the center or left are doing so. Our tactics are working. We foiled fascist plans to escalate violence, we have a Mayor who sees the writing on the wall if he doesn't work with us to stop the violence both from the goons but also the police.
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Trump says it, his bot troll army makes enough noise that it gets picked up by the news coverage. The news loves any story that they can show anyone else other than Trump as a budgie because it is all Trump all the time. Even when the story doesn't have much to do with him, he finds a way to elbow into it. So anything that is newsworthy has to take a political side eventually, because of Trump forcing it to be with me or against me. Fighting Nazi's is not a political issue or Republican vs. Democrat.
 
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