Organics ARE chemicals

DownOnWax

Well-Known Member
What about safety from the patient/gardener perspective? Wanna do a "whoops spilled my products all over myself" test: organic plant based tea vs synthetic gardening products.

I'll pour my AACT tea all over myself, undiluted of course. You pour your "food" on yourself, undiluted of course, and that includes pH up/down...

First one to call an ambulance looses ;)
Or better yet, drink it.
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
Or better yet, drink it.
agreed, and edited the post to include. why do people think that the molecular level is the only level that matters? Life is complex, and much more than just elements and energy. And please, do not drink/shower-in pH up/down or any other chemy bs.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
What about safety from the patient/gardener perspective? Wanna do a "whoops spilled my products all over myself" test: organic plant based tea vs synthetic gardening products.

I'll pour my AACT tea all over myself, undiluted of course. You pour your "food" on yourself, undiluted of course, and that includes pH up/down...

First one to call an ambulance looses ;)

OR, we an each chug a gallon of un-diluted solution. Mine would be, again, an AACT from plants/soil. Yours can be an undiluted mixture of your veg/flower/boosters/pH adjsuters... not sure why anyone would ever drink plant food, but kids do crazy things.
Good point, saftey isn't just about the end user. That is something I hadn't really considered, thanks for pointing it out. Gives me something to think about.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
agreed, and edited the post to include. why do people think that the molecular level is the only level that matters? Life is complex, and much more than just elements and energy. And please, do not drink/shower-in pH up/down or any other chemy bs.
You just touched on an important aspect that often gets lost in all the science and techy mumbo jumbo. "Life is complex"! And the variables limitless. I don't share your views about "chemical" nutrients although I respect them and do try to be as organic as my resources and time permit. The majority of folks in the developed world have been eating foods that were grown with chemicals and while we are having some health related issues as a society, the use of chemical fertilizers seems pretty tame in comparison to all of the other toxins we are exposed to on a daily basis. Different folks react differently to different concentrations of toxins. What doesn't affect me may make you violently ill. I spill chemical nutrients on me all the time (I'm a bit of a clutz) but have never had to go to the hospital. I may have some tolerance or resistance to them that another person may not have.:bigjoint:
 

Nullis

Moderator
That was a pretty good post............up until the last part. Anti-biotics? Vitamins? Amino acids? I wasn't aware that beneficials provided these things. If you have a link or something to back that up I would be most interested in reading it. I think I know what you are trying to say but the way you've worded it seems very misleading to me.:???:
The very first antibiotics to be discovered (penicillin being the first) were produced by microbes in nature, including common molds. Roughly a decade later several more natural antibiotics were discovered by Selman Waksman, a biochemist who was studying soil microorganisms and decomposition. He coined the term 'antibiotic' and those he discovered included streptomycin, neomycin and actinomycin.

We should all have some idea what 'chemical' means; all things physical in the world have mass and volume. Everything is composed of matter, and consequently chemicals. Some very familiar things consist of primarily a single simple chemical such as water in and of itself, the nitrous oxide you inhale from whippets, baking soda, etc.
Most things, like the atmosphere or living organisms, are actually made up of several chemicals. In the case of living things there are hundreds if not thousands of a variety of 'chemicals' that interact on various levels and together form organelles, which are components of the cells that form the tissues which make up organs.

There are chemicals that we know to be ubiquitous in our environments. These are produced naturally on earth, either by the reactive nature of the Earth itself or as a consequence of certain fundamental or specialized (specific only to certain species) processes carried out by the living organisms that exist on it.
Synthetic chemicals are those which are not known to occur naturally anywhere upon the earth and are instead synthesized by man. They are not necessarily horrendous, just as natural chemicals are not necessarily innocuous. However, there is a lessened ability to determine exactly what sort of impact a synthetic chemical is going to have on organisms in our environment. A specific concern with many synthetic substances (especially pesticides) is that the forces of nature wont allow for them to degrade at an acceptable rate and if such a chemical interacts in any manner with an organisms biology the impact will be devastating.

Elaborating on my previous post, soil organisms contribute a lot to the soil, and to plants. To say that the microbes are 'breaking down organic matter into chemical fertilizer anyways' is oversimplified misinformation if there ever was such a thing. Of course, no microbes break any organic matter down into synthetic nutrients, salts or EDTA.
Within soil, outdoors or in living soil grows there are various organisms, all of which are depending on each other and building off of one another, all of which are metabolizing, assimilating and building components of varying complexities. In soil we have various species of bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, arthropods and other detritivores working both with and against each other; engaging in symbiotic relationships with the plant directly and/or other organisms in the soil or competing with one another in order to sustain the food web, and make life possible and easier for one another.
The competition itself is a remarkable thing. When you have a variety of good organisms and detritivores thriving in your soil, there is much less chance that any bad parasitic pests would be capable of doing harm. Some of your good stuff is just competing for the same food source, while others are more directly engaged in eradicating parasites either by consuming them or producing compounds which are lethal to them).

Aside from specific chemicals that they produce (which I'll elaborate on momentarily), these organisms are directly affecting the soil composition. They are sequentially contributing to the content of organic matter and humic substances (humus) present in the soil as well as influencing such things as particle size, porosity and water retention. Earthworms are the greatest detritivores, enriching soil with available nutrients, increasing microbial populations, and enhancing soil structure.

Actinobacteria are decomposing bacteria, important to humus formation and nutrient recycling. It includes the genus Streptomyces, species of which produce some of the antibiotics I mentioned previously, including streptomycin, actinomycin and neomycin.

Some strains of bacteria such as Pseudomonas fluorescens, and streptomyces griseoviridis produce fungicides. Bacillus subtilis attacks parasitic fungi and various species of bacillus thuringiensis are toxic to specific insects such as israelensis which is effective against mosquito and fungus gnat larvae.

There are bacteria such as those within the Azotobacter genus that fix nitrogen from the atmosphere and convert it into usable forms. These and other bacteria also produce compounds which are growth stimulants, or phytohormones including auxins and cytokines (Bacillus). Azotobacter also assists in bioremediation of heavy metals, and biodegradation of certain pollutants.

I don't even want to get started on all that mycorrhizae does in assimilating nutrients and regulating uptake. But, they also happen to produce B-Vitamins which are supposed to stimulate growth and disease resistance.

Of course there are multiple perspectives here, depending on whether you grow indoors or out. If you grow outdoors and use chemical nutrients you are also hindering soil biota, diminishing the capacity of the soil food web to provide nutrients and sustain life. Some of those highly soluble chemicals will wash out of the soil and into the water supply.

I view 'organic' gardening as embracing the progression of the natural cycles of life/death/rebirth. A key aspect is nutrient recycling; taking dead organic matter or byproducts which would otherwise be quite useless, letting all of that life happen within it and allowing it to produce food for my plants, plus a whole lot more.

Awesome soil biology primer

Soil ecology
Actinobacteria overview
Streptomyces info
Bacillus subtilis info
Azotobacter info
Plant hormones
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Wow great post Nullis! Although I still feel basically the same way, I understand a tad bit more about the subtle differences between natural vs synthetic now. Still nothing that suggests naturally produced chemicals lead to "less toxic" bud, but I shall enjoy reading through your links. Thanks!
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
The very first antibiotics to be discovered (penicillin being the first) were produced by microbes in nature, including common molds. Roughly a decade later several more natural antibiotics were discovered by Selman Waksman, a biochemist who was studying soil microorganisms and decomposition. He coined the term 'antibiotic' and those he discovered included streptomycin, neomycin and actinomycin.

We should all have some idea what 'chemical' means; all things physical in the world have mass and volume. Everything is composed of matter, and consequently chemicals. Some very familiar things consist of primarily a single simple chemical such as water in and of itself, the nitrous oxide you inhale from whippets, baking soda, etc.
Most things, like the atmosphere or living organisms, are actually made up of several chemicals. In the case of living things there are hundreds if not thousands of a variety of 'chemicals' that interact on various levels and together form organelles, which are components of the cells that form the tissues which make up organs.

There are chemicals that we know to be ubiquitous in our environments. These are produced naturally on earth, either by the reactive nature of the Earth itself or as a consequence of certain fundamental or specialized (specific only to certain species) processes carried out by the living organisms that exist on it.
Synthetic chemicals are those which are not known to occur naturally anywhere upon the earth and are instead synthesized by man. They are not necessarily horrendous, just as natural chemicals are not necessarily innocuous. However, there is a lessened ability to determine exactly what sort of impact a synthetic chemical is going to have on organisms in our environment. A specific concern with many synthetic substances (especially pesticides) is that the forces of nature wont allow for them to degrade at an acceptable rate and if such a chemical interacts in any manner with an organisms biology the impact will be devastating.

Elaborating on my previous post, soil organisms contribute a lot to the soil, and to plants. To say that the microbes are 'breaking down organic matter into chemical fertilizer anyways' is oversimplified misinformation if there ever was such a thing. Of course, no microbes break any organic matter down into synthetic nutrients, salts or EDTA.
Within soil, outdoors or in living soil grows there are various organisms, all of which are depending on each other and building off of one another, all of which are metabolizing, assimilating and building components of varying complexities. In soil we have various species of bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, arthropods and other detritivores working both with and against each other; engaging in symbiotic relationships with the plant directly and/or other organisms in the soil or competing with one another in order to sustain the food web, and make life possible and easier for one another.
The competition itself is a remarkable thing. When you have a variety of good organisms and detritivores thriving in your soil, there is much less chance that any bad parasitic pests would be capable of doing harm. Some of your good stuff is just competing for the same food source, while others are more directly engaged in eradicating parasites either by consuming them or producing compounds which are lethal to them).

Aside from specific chemicals that they produce (which I'll elaborate on momentarily), these organisms are directly affecting the soil composition. They are sequentially contributing to the content of organic matter and humic substances (humus) present in the soil as well as influencing such things as particle size, porosity and water retention. Earthworms are the greatest detritivores, enriching soil with available nutrients, increasing microbial populations, and enhancing soil structure.

Actinobacteria are decomposing bacteria, important to humus formation and nutrient recycling. It includes the genus Streptomyces, species of which produce some of the antibiotics I mentioned previously, including streptomycin, actinomycin and neomycin.

Some strains of bacteria such as Pseudomonas fluorescens, and streptomyces griseoviridis produce fungicides. Bacillus subtilis attacks parasitic fungi and various species of bacillus thuringiensis are toxic to specific insects such as israelensis which is effective against mosquito and fungus gnat larvae.

There are bacteria such as those within the Azotobacter genus that fix nitrogen from the atmosphere and convert it into usable forms. These and other bacteria also produce compounds which are growth stimulants, or phytohormones including auxins and cytokines (Bacillus). Azotobacter also assists in bioremediation of heavy metals, and biodegradation of certain pollutants.

I don't even want to get started on all that mycorrhizae does in assimilating nutrients and regulating uptake. But, they also happen to produce B-Vitamins which are supposed to stimulate growth and disease resistance.

Of course there are multiple perspectives here, depending on whether you grow indoors or out. If you grow outdoors and use chemical nutrients you are also hindering soil biota, diminishing the capacity of the soil food web to provide nutrients and sustain life. Some of those highly soluble chemicals will wash out of the soil and into the water supply.

I view 'organic' gardening as embracing the progression of the natural cycles of life/death/rebirth. A key aspect is nutrient recycling; taking dead organic matter or byproducts which would otherwise be quite useless, letting all of that life happen within it and allowing it to produce food for my plants, plus a whole lot more.

Awesome soil biology primer

Soil ecology
Actinobacteria overview
Streptomyces info
Bacillus subtilis info
Azotobacter info
Plant hormones
That was a good, if long, post. I'm aware of penicillin, but it has nothing to do with organic gardening. Penicillium notatum, the mold which makes penicillin doesn't grow on plant roots. I think I see what you are getting at. I'm not bashing organic. I think it's great but it's also important for anybody considering gardening to take a look at what their goals are. Take a look at the size of the garden, the needs of the patient, budget, amount of time that can be invested doing work in the garden, etc. This will give most gardeners a pretty good idea of what style they want to use. Also, I would never advise a novice gardener to try totally organic on his first run. Unless extremely gifted, the gardener is likely to fail, and in spectacular fashion. Science is just beginning to understand this intricate symbiosis between plants and the rhizosphere. Maintaining homeostasis indoors can be very challenging, and I'm just talking about the basics, like temps, humidity. Trying to do all that and keep a thriving, healthy rhizosphere which is capable of providing for the nutrient requirements of cannabis can be a full time job. I have my own business so I have a lot of flexibility and can work my schedule around so I can do my gardening chores, but I spend at least 60-70 hours a week just on business related stuff. Making time to do all that is required in a totally organic indoor garden is nearly impossible for me. I know this because I've tried it. I just wasn't happy with the results and the amount of time I had to spend to get OK results. I think the OP's point was that chemical nutes get a bad rap and there is virtually no evidence to support the claims that chemically produced food or medicine is unheatlhy. Chelates notwithstanding, "synthetic" nutes are chemically identical to organic nutes after they are broken down by the beneficials. NH4 is NH4 and it is definitely NOT synthetic. You are correct in saying that microbes don't break down organic matter into synthetic nutes. The point being made was that an ion is an ion. It took us a lot of pages to come to this very simple realization but it's been a fun ride and I learned a bit as well. Each indivdual person needs to make up their own mind as to what method will work best for them and give them the results they desire. Saying that one method is superior or healthier is a matter of opinion at this point and we will have to wait for science to tell us what is what. They will more than likely get some of it wrong but science is still a lot of fun. Happy growing and stay safe. :weed:
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
...Each indivdual person needs to make up their own mind as to what method will work best for them and give them the results they desire. Saying that one method is superior or healthier is a matter of opinion at this point and we will have to wait for science to tell us what is what. They will more than likely get some of it wrong but science is still a lot of fun. Happy growing and stay safe. :weed:
Agreed with everything here. Very mature posts, thanks to both you and nul. Happy and safe is the way to be.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
Agreed with everything here. Very mature posts, thanks to both you and nul. Happy and safe is the way to be.
Thank you! I've been reading your Veganics threads. I have to admit I half expected a bunch of hippy, voodoo, b.s. but I was pleasantly surprised. You are a very knowledgeable and dedicated individual. Perhaps I may give veganics a try some day. For now, I'm going to have to stick with a mix of organics with a chemical tweak here and there. Here is a pic of me in my gardening outfit:






Just kidding! I couldn't resist. :lol:

BTW Matt, that is a really beautiful dog you've got there. I'm a dog lover myself. :leaf:
 

Attachments

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
Thank you! I've been reading your Veganics threads. I have to admit I half expected a bunch of hippy, voodoo, b.s. but I was pleasantly surprised. You are a very knowledgeable and dedicated individual. Perhaps I may give veganics a try some day. For now, I'm going to have to stick with a mix of organics with a chemical tweak here and there. Here is a pic of me in my gardening outfit:
Just kidding! I couldn't resist. :lol:
BTW Matt, that is a really beautiful dog you've got there. I'm a dog lover myself.
I tried to keep the hippy voodoo shit in the "new school organics" thread to not confuse the issue. Your outfit is hilarious. My pup was killed by another dog recently... it was brutal. My rescue border collie is coming along, joining the team if you will.

This whole 'taking words literally" thing is such a fail. In English, words have many meanings, common meanings, biological meaning, chemical meaning, industry meaning. And half of the conversation is argument over which is correct. Meanwhile, the truth is that there is more than one meaning to words like "organic" and "chemical". This makes blanket statements such as "organics are chemicals" to be more of a misunderstanding (or troll not sure about the op), than a statement that holds any validity.

To make the pointless argument, that organics is the same as synthetics to plants, one would have to narrowly define organic, and chemical. And this would still not take into account the complexity of soil life, environmental concerns, and health concerns.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
I tried to keep the hippy voodoo shit in the "new school organics" thread to not confuse the issue. Your outfit is hilarious. My pup was killed by another dog recently... it was brutal. My rescue border collie is coming along, joining the team if you will.

This whole 'taking words literally" thing is such a fail. In English, words have many meanings, common meanings, biological meaning, chemical meaning, industry meaning. And half of the conversation is argument over which is correct. Meanwhile, the truth is that there is more than one meaning to words like "organic" and "chemical". This makes blanket statements such as "organics are chemicals" to be more of a misunderstanding (or troll not sure about the op), than a statement that holds any validity.

To make the pointless argument, that organics is the same as synthetics to plants, one would have to narrowly define organic, and chemical. And this would still not take into account the complexity of soil life, environmental concerns, and health concerns.
Sorry to hear about your dog.:cry:

I try not to engage in semantics but sometimes that's where the confusion stems from. Some of these words have more than one definition, although they can be very similar. It can be very confusing, especially to the novice gardener. I don't think the OP was trolling. I think he wanted to point out, and he's not the first, that at the molecular level, NH3 is the same as NH3 regardless of the source and that the plants don't know the difference between ions derived from different methods. There is no doubt whatsoever that this leaves out many, many factors and is a gross oversimplification. It doesn't take into consideration chelates and the effect they may or may not have on our health. It does't take into consideration the symbiotic relationship plants have developed with soil microbes and fungi. I see a lot of organic "nazis" on here and other forums finger wagging the folks who do use chemical fertilizers on their crops. Somehow, many of them act like their medicine is far superior to medicine grown in a non-organic fashion. Perhaps it is but I've grown both ways and I honestly cannot tell the difference. Maybe my health is suffering in some unknown way...........time will tell. At the end of the day what matters is the patient. Is the medicine doing what the patient requires and is the patients life impacted in a positive way by the medicine. :weed:

I hope I didn't offend you with the "hippy, voodoo" comment. I have few vegan friends whom I respect and care deeply for, but they are all either new age or hippies and their views tend to wander into the realm of the bizarre. Take care my friend. :joint:
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I had hoped to help some people see through the spin marketers put on the organics label. It's something I try to do throughout life, not just on this subject, although I like to think I normally do a better job. ;) For every issue out there which involves passion, someone is there trying to make an unscrupulous buck off it. I had not considered the many factors of organic growing cos frankly, I was thinking from the standpoint of the end user. Does the patient really need to know the details of how organics get broken down to know that they don't want to pay extra for a health benefit that isn't there?

I am a person who loves to learn, so I appreciate all the info shared here. I also realize there is much more to this subject than what I first considered, yet I still maintain my original points. I recently heard Kyle Kushman talk about veganics on a podcast and have been interested ever since. It honestly sounds like the best of everything. In my mind, hydro is easy, organics is challenging, and veganics is advanced. I figure I should master them in that order. So I really don't have anything against organics except for the marketing hype.
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
I recently heard Kyle Kushman talk about veganics on a podcast and have been interested ever since. It honestly sounds like the best of everything. In my mind, hydro is easy, organics is challenging, and veganics is advanced. I figure I should master them in that order. So I really don't have anything against organics except for the marketing hype.
One of the mods on icmag, named jaykush, is a long-time vegan organic grower and is completely against bottled nutes. he has the other side of vegan organics covered (DIY).
 

Illumination

New Member
It seems that there is way too much concern about the "healthiness" of the final product regardless of how it is grown. As most people burn the plant material and inhale the smoke, the potential harm from breathing particulate matter on a regular basis far outweighs any health threat chemical sources regardless of how derived will contribute to negative health. It is as moot a point as saying organically grown tobacco is better for you. Well not breathing particulate matter is way more important that just breathing organically grown plant matter. In others words the act of smoking anything is horrible for you.

How about this, just grow the best you can and share it with others. This will promote awesome and healthy environments which will benefit mankind far more than the organic or "Green" industry politicos ever will with their mass money labeling catch term lies to get your dirty dollar mindsets...

Namaste':leaf:
 

Nullis

Moderator
Hydroponics isn't necessarily any easier than soil organics, and you can even grow hydro-organically. To me hydro seems like it could be considerably more difficult, as the plants are much more dependent on your establishment and sustenance of an environment which is within the proper parameters for vigorous growth.

Depending on the setting and methods you've chosen, plants growing in such an environment can be quite sensitive to fluctuations in pH and nutrient/mineral/salt content of the solution. As with most things, you're able to make certain choices dictating how easy or advanced you would like to make things for yourself. How much control do you want/need to have over the environment?
I haven't done any hydro-growing, but supposing I wanted to give it a run and make it as easy as possible on myself, there are certain choices I can make. First and foremost I know that I can choose a medium like coco coir, which isn't as delicate and offers some buffering and nutrient content, as opposed to rock wool, which I would have to be much more careful growing in. I could also pick a much less complicated feeding program, even a one-part nutrient like CNS17 (synthetic) or Pure Blend Pro (organic).

I am not an expert of any sort, and I don't wish to pretend to be. I like to read and learn about things of this nature (and grow!) and apparently am able to comprehend enough of it. There are many things that I understand considerably; I know/know why and am able to explain them. Other things I know or strongly suspect but can't yet be positive 'why'.
For instance, it is known that fertilizers themselves (as part of the collective growing environment) can at least subtly impact characteristics of the herb including appearance, taste and smell. As I have never been able to do a side-by-side grow with soil organic vs. anything hydroponic, I can't comment from my own experience whether cannabis grown organically in soil actually tastes any better or smokes any smoother. What I have noticed is that various breeders (eg: GreenHouse Seeds) state that terpene profiles of their strains (eg. Lemon Skunk, Super Lemon Haze) are enhanced when the plant is grown in soil, and I don't know why they
would exaggerate such a thing. I also suspect that many growers (especially commercial hydro growers) overfeed their plants and probably don't flush thoroughly either, ultimately resulting in an over-abundance of elements in the herb that don't need to be present.

As far as health goes, the implication that organically grown cannabis is any 'healthier' likely derives from preexisting perspectives which are correlated with such things as organic agriculture and produce.
Organic agriculure involves produce that was grown without synthetic/chemical based fertilizers, sewage sludge or pesticides. Sewage sludge and pesticides in particular are probably the more horrendous aspects of conventional agriculture. Pesticides alone can pose serious health consequences to farm workers, and possibly end consumers. Therefore, many believe that buying/consuming certified organic produce is 'healthier' both for themselves and on the environment, and such thinking easily extends to anything else labeled 'organic'. Similarly, it is frequently thought or assumed that which is derived directly from nature or via more 'holistic' means is less likely to be harmful.

I don't particularly care for the synthetic/chemical distinction either. The real consideration is that certain 'chemicals', both man-made and natural, can negatively affect soil biological activity, or other aspects of soil chemistry, and are thus less sustainable and therefore unsuitable for 'organic' production.
Let's take a look at EDTA for a moment. Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid is a very common synthetic chelating agent, typically found in most hydroponic or synthetic nutrients. What a chelate does is encapsulate or latch on to various positively charged molecules (including nutrients), increasing solubility and the ability for uptake by plant roots. There are also organic chelates, such as humic and fulvic acids, and amino acids.
EDTA molecules attach to positively charged particles via four points of connection, and shuttle the connected element into plant roots. Unlike fulvic acids, plant roots cannot actually absorb the EDTA molecule itself. Instead the roots will release the element it is attached to, and the EDTA molecule is then free to form a connection with another positively charged element, including heavy metals that would otherwise be unavailable to plant roots. It is actually used in phytoremediation for this purpose. Plants can be grown in heavy-metal laden soils where EDTA has been applied, the metals accumulate in plant tissues and then the plants are stored.
In your typical indoor hydro operation there probably aren't enough heavy metals present in the medium or solution to cause any major problems, but repeated applications of EDTA-containing fertilizer on lands such as reclaimed industrial sites might cause heavy metals to accumulate in the plants. EDTA is also prone to leaching into water ways.
This also relates to my previous comments about hydro growers overfeeding, as the presence of EDTA or the more expensive chelates (DTPA, EDDHA) should allow for a reduction in the amount of fertilizer required.


While no type of 'smoke' that you inhale could be considered entirely harmless, specific components present abundantly in plant tissues (phosphorous, magnesium, copper, chlorophyll remaining from lack of cure) will make smoke harsher on the lungs, while others (especially heavy metals) and elements such as aluminum can very well make the smoke more dangerous.

Tobacco is quite peculiar, and I almost don't want to get into it. I am of the opinion that the way tobacco is grown and further processed does play a significant role in the diseases attributed to it. It isn't a huge secret that tobacco contains hundreds of chemical additives, but few realize that it also happens to contain polonium 210 and lead 210. These are alpha-emitting (radioactive) heavy metals that accumulate in the soil and on the trichomes of the tobacco leaf.
Tobacco is typically grown with calcium phosphate fertilizer, which is mined from apatite- a known source of trace radioactive compounds (radium, polonium, lead). Repeated applications of these fertilizers cause accumulation in the soil, and on the leaves of the tobacco plant. These compounds stay in place on the leaf, while a variety of other chemicals are added to it for flavor and impact boosting before it is packed into a cigarette. The contaminants pass right through the filter and into the smokers lungs, where they accumulate and emit alpha particles, which contribute to tissue damage in the lungs.

What's more peculiar is that there are folks who don't actually smoke the tobacco at all. Instead, they buy snuff or chewing tobacco, and indulge in that manner. Those who 'chew' tobacco usually put a wad of it in the same spot between their gum and lip. If they keep it up for a decade or more, a cancerous lesion is very likely to form in that very spot. No smoke what-so-ever is involved there.
If the act of smoking is what causes cancer, how could smokeless tobacco be so dangerous?
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
To me hydro seems like it could be considerably more difficult, .
Agreed. More difficult and more risky. So much can go wrong with pumps and shit like that. By hydro I mean real hydro, not soil-less containers of peat, coco, and/or bark.

For instance, it is known that fertilizers themselves can at least subtly impact characteristics of the herb including appearance, taste and smell.
Nutes are certainly part of the environment. I worked at a dispensary and hydro looks different (than soil and even soil-less) and smokes like crap IMO.

I also suspect that many growers (especially commercial hydro growers) overfeed their plants and probably don't flush thoroughly either, ultimately resulting in an over-abundance of elements in the herb that don't need to be present.
Agreed, and the worst part is that they could have flushed and not suffered yield, but they do not understand senescence.

Let's take a look at EDTA for a moment. Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid is a very common synthetic chelating agent, typically found in most hydroponic or synthetic nutrients. What a chelate does is encapsulate or latch on to various positively charged molecules (including nutrients), increasing solubility and the ability for uptake by plant roots. There are also organic chelates, such as humic and fulvic acids, and amino acids.
EDTA molecules attach to positively charged particles via four points of connection, and shuttle the connected element into plant roots. Unlike fulvic acids, plant roots cannot actually absorb the EDTA molecule itself. Instead the roots will release the element it is attached to, and the EDTA molecule is then free to form a connection with another positively charged element, including heavy metals that would otherwise be unavailable to plant roots. It is actually used in phytoremediation for this purpose. Plants can be grown in heavy-metal laden soils where EDTA has been applied, the metals accumulate in plant tissues and then the plants are stored.
Yikes! Heavy metals in plant tissue = bad for ganja smokers.

While no type of 'smoke' that you inhale could be considered entirely harmless, specific components present abundantly in plant tissues (phosphorous, magnesium, copper, chlorophyll remaining from lack of cure) will make smoke harsher on the lungs, while others (especially heavy metals) and elements such as aluminum can very well make the smoke more dangerous.
Agreed, which is also why you should not use molasses during the last two weeks. Mucho micro nutes in that stuff, in addition to the carbs.
 

Medi 1

Well-Known Member
about the only diff in organic and synthetic is one is atatched to a salt and one is a carbon molecule. one takes longer to uptake and one is fast. there is a diff in natural organic like blood n bone and so on than a bottle of organics. watch how the natural effrects the ph way more.
a plant cant uptake the foods till they get atached to one of those molecules. salt or carbon. is why organic is slower as it takes time to become useable.
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
about the only diff in organic and synthetic is one is atatched to a salt and one is a carbon molecule.
Good thing you left "about" in there. You forget about sourcing. You left out gardener safety. And you have forgotten that more complex flavors are a result of complex soil/root interactions that are not fully understood at this point. I can taste synthetics. On the palette and the throat.
 
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