Organic Growing: An Introductory Guide

Jubilant said:

Hey @Rasta Roy how soon do you recommend using a Sea Bird Guano tea for my girls just flipped to flower. It's the first run of this soil mix (the one I posted earlier off your OP) so the soil is about 10 weeks "old" The girls vegged in it for 8 weeks and I fed it a couple compost/kelp/neem teas and just finished their first week of the flip.

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If it's a all purpose seabird guano (12-12-2 or whatever) then you definitely want to do ASAP when you switch and not too heavy on the guano unless you've already got yellowing on your plants. If it's high p guano then anytime between week 1-6 is a good time to apply.

If it's virgin soil I would be doing one every couple weeks. The second time using the soil I would do a couple in flower and by the third time I wouldn't need to do any. I'd have plenty of available phosphorus.

I will say though, I've since moved away from guanos for phosphorus sources, and have spent some quality time with fish bone meal, crab shell and shrimp shell meal have been some consistent favorites in my soil mixes for the last year. And my recent adventures have been with malted barley seeds and comfrey.

Rasta Roy said:

If it's a all purpose seabird guano (12-12-2 or whatever) then you definitely want to do ASAP when you switch and not too heavy on the guano unless you've already got yellowing on your plants. If it's high p guano then anytime between week 1-6 is a good time to apply.

If it's virgin soil I would be doing one every couple weeks. The second time using the soil I would do a couple in flower and by the third time I wouldn't need to do any. I'd have plenty of available phosphorus.

I will say though, I've since moved away from guanos for phosphorus sources, and have spent some quality time with fish bone meal, crab shell and shrimp shell meal have been some consistent favorites in my soil mixes for the last year. And my recent adventures have been with malted barley seeds and comfrey.

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I will for sure look into these other options! I am already using Crab Shell Meal in my mix. Any reason why you made this change?

I do have a whole box of sea bird guano that is not going to waste

You just got my wheels turning with the fishbone meal, crab shell meal, shrimp shell meal. I can easily get all those in raw form, probably even crushed all to shit; fck my neighbor owns a fishing business and there are countless fish markets around considering SCS (S. China Sea) is 5 minute walk. I wonder how bio available those are in those forms before they are pressed into a meal? Any idea?

Jubilant said:

I will for sure look into these other options! I am already using Crab Shell Meal in my mix. Any reason why you made this change?

I do have a whole box of sea bird guano that is not going to waste

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Don't ever waste anything! I've got my own stock pile of guanos I've been working through on some side projects.

Guano is great for when you need something for your plants right away, applied in tea or top dressing you get a nice immediate change.

The downsides tho...Repeat application is necessary as it's highly water soluble and readily available properties that we love it for also make sure it doesn't stick around in your soil for that long. On a small scale this isn't a huge cost to take on, but if you're growing on a large scale you'll find the repeated applications becoming just as pricey as bottle nutes (still cheaper by a bit tho).

Fish bone, crab shell, and shrimp shell meal are made from slightly more sustainable resources, they are not as instantly available as guanos. But they are not far behind.

@Vnsmkr to answer your question, all the meal is, is the bones and shells of said sea dwellers; ground up mortar and pestle style.

When they are ground down that fine the calcium is readily available in less than a week, the nitrogen in them as well (although in small enough amounts that burn isn't a concern), while the phosphorus in them can take a couple weeks to a month and a half to show some real uptake, depends on your environment and the health of your soil. They slow release for long enough that repeat applications are not necessary and a lot of nutrients from them will carry over for your next grow.

I've been making the switch to comfrey and barley because I can make them myself and they also hit that sweet spot between slow release nutrient as it breaks down and readily available for plant uptake balance that I look for in organic matter inputs.

How do the people here feel about Pine Needles in mulch / as an amendment.

I understand and they decompose slowly and easily allow for water to pass around them making them great for aeration. Along with the long term nutrients it can add to the soil (eventually)

I see a lot of people believed them to create an acidic environment in soil which has been disproven apparently. Seems like a cheap (free) easy to obtain aeration/mulch

Where did you see that had been disproven? We dont have any pine needles here, just curious as have always heard that

Vnsmkr said:

Where did you see that had been disproven? We dont have any pine needles here, just curious as have always heard that

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A lot of links on google were indicating this information to be false. While they are naturally slightly acidic Once decomposed they are PH neutral.

Here is the number two links I read.

http://www.gardenmyths.com/pine-needles-acidify-soil/ | http://www.wildlifegardeners.org/forum/feature-articles/4905-pine-straw-pine-needle-mulch-acidity-separating-fact-fiction-through-analytical-testing.html

There are many more declaring this to be myth and I am inclined to believe it.

EDIT: A thread of people dedicated to the neutral PH of Pine http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1687565/pine-needles

Also they are about 1/2 'N' and 1/20 'P' according to generalized NPK values so I would imagine it is good for some longer term N amending

( source: https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/npk-value-of-everything-organic-searchable-database/ )

Knowledge is power

Jubilant said:

Also they are about 1/2 'N' and 1/20 'P' according to generalized NPK values so I would imagine it is good for some longer term N amending

( source: https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/npk-value-of-everything-organic-searchable-database/ )

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Correction on this I was misunderstanding the numbers on the site. Less than 1% Nitrogen and way less than 1% P please ignore me

Jubilant said:

A lot of links on google were indicating this information to be false. While they are naturally slightly acidic Once decomposed they are PH neutral.

Here is the number two links I read.

http://www.gardenmyths.com/pine-needles-acidify-soil/ | http://www.wildlifegardeners.org/forum/feature-articles/4905-pine-straw-pine-needle-mulch-acidity-separating-fact-fiction-through-analytical-testing.html

There are many more declaring this to be myth and I am inclined to believe it.

EDIT: A thread of people dedicated to the neutral PH of Pine http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1687565/pine-needles

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Once composted they are pH neutral. They are slightly acidic before composting, mulching with them isn't gonna dramatically lower your pH the way adding something like wood ash would tho. And if you got plenty of calcium in your soil I would be even less worried about it.

Jubilant said:

How do the people here feel about Pine Needles in mulch / as an amendment.

I understand and they decompose slowly and easily allow for water to pass around them making them great for aeration. Along with the long term nutrients it can add to the soil (eventually)

I see a lot of people believed them to create an acidic environment in soil which has been disproven apparently. Seems like a cheap (free) easy to obtain aeration/mulch

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I haven't used it as a mulch but I live in Michigan and run a composting program so I have composted a great deal of pine needles. Granted it's mixed with leaves, garden scraps, produce, and all sorts of goodies. The compost still comes out neutral tho!

Well I mixed up a mulch!

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This is a bit experimental as I wanted to do it without buying anything and I came up with this blend after a decent amount of research and scrounging what I had. Here is what I came up with. My backyard has what appears to my untrained eye to be spruce trees. I put on some warm clothes And grabbed some branches and cones from my yard soaked them for about 40 mins then boiled them for about 20 mins and drained. Then I put it in a blender filled it with water and chopped it all up and drained again. I then rinsed it with hot water for about 10 mins. I let that dry while I cut up my old cannabis skeletons and roots dry blending the thicker pieces to chunk them up. I mixed in some neem cake and peppermint leaf for IPM and biomass along with kelp cause what plant doesn't like some kelp then mixed in some compost and EWC. I then mixed in the shredded spruce parts and a couple handfuls of coco-coir (re-hydrated with a diluted SST I had) to finish the mulch. I applied to my girls by first layering some compost on the soil then covering everything with the mulch

Jubilant said:

Well I mixed up a mulch!

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View attachment 3894096
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This is a bit experimental as I wanted to do it without buying anything and I came up with this blend after a decent amount of research and scrounging what I had. Here is what I came up with. My backyard has what appears to my untrained eye to be spruce trees. I put on some warm clothes And grabbed some branches and cones from my yard then boiled them for about 20 mins and drained. Then I put it in a blender filled it with water and chopped it all up and drained again. I then rinsed it with hot water for about 10 mins. I let that dry while I cut up my old cannabis skeletons and roots dry blending the thicker pieces to chunk them up. I mixed in some neem cake and peppermint leaf for IPM and biomass along with kelp cause what plant doesn't like some kelp then mixed in some compost and EWC. I then mixed in the shredded spruce parts to finish the mulch. I applied to my girls by first layering some compost on the soil then covering everything with the mulch

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Very nice! Keep us updated!

yo @Rasta Roy whats a good source of nitrogen when in flower? I'm getting yellowing of the bottom leaves and I'm only 17 days in thanks.

growster_23 said:

yo @Rasta Roy whats a good source of nitrogen when in flower? I'm getting yellowing of the bottom leaves and I'm only 17 days in thanks.

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Im no expert, and I know some are steering away now, but I would use some high N guano for fast delivery, and some kelp and castings to kick in slowly.
Im sure Rasta will have some better info though

I picked up 3 yards of omri organic compost how long will half a yard feed a plant?

I would topdress with some worm castings myself and feed some fish hydroslate. Wait I have a post for this .
NPK values
Alfalfa Hay: 2.45/05/2.1
Apple Fruit: 0.05/0.02/0.1
Apple Leaves: 1.0/0.15/0.4
Apple Pomace: 0.2/0.02/0.15
Apple skins(ash) : 0/3.0/11/74
Banana Residues (ash): 1.75/0.75/0.5
Barley (grain): 0/0/0.5
Barley (straw): 0/0/1.0
Basalt Rock: 0/0/1.5
Bat Guano: 5.0-8.0/4.0-5.0/1.0
Beans, garden(seed and hull): 0.25/0.08/03
Beet Wastes: 0.4/0.4/0.7-4.1
Blood meal: 15.0/0/0
Bone Black: 1.5/0/0
Bonemeal (raw): 3.3-4.1/21.0/0.2
Bonemeal (steamed): 1.6-2.5/21.0/0.2
Brewery Wastes (wet): 1.0/0.5/0.05
Buckwheat straw: 0/0/2.0
Cantaloupe Rinds (ash): 0/9.77/12.0
Castor pomace: 4.0-6.6/1.0-2.0/1.0-2.0
Cattail reeds and water lily stems: 2.0/0.8/3.4
Cattail Seed: 0.98/0.25/0.1
Cattle Manure (fresh): 0.29/0.25/0.1
Cherry Leaves: 0.6/0/0.7
Chicken Manure (fresh): 1.6/1.0-1.5/0.6-1.0
Clover: 2/0/0/0 (also contains calcium)
Cocoa Shell Dust: 1.0/1.5/1.7
Coffee Grounds: 2.0/0.36/0.67
Corn (grain): 1.65/0.65/0.4
Corn (green forage): 0.4/0.13/0.33
Corn cobs: 0/0/2.0
Corn Silage: 0.42/0/0
Cornstalks: 0.75/0/0.8
Cottonseed hulls (ash): 0/8.7/23.9
Cottonseed Meal: 7.0/2.0-3.0/1.8
Cotton Wastes (factory): 1.32/0.45/0.36
Cowpea Hay: 3.0/0/2.3
Cowpeas (green forage): 0.45/0.12/0.45
Cowpeas (seed): 3.1/1.0/1.2
Crabgrass (green): 0.66/0.19/0.71
Crabs (dried, ground): 10.0/0/0 (I personally just crush the shells with my foot)
Crabs (fresh): 5.0/3.6/0.2
Cucumber Skins (ash): 0/11.28/27.2 ( WOW!!!! Who knew )
Dried Blood: 10.0-14.0/1.0-5.0/0
Duck Manure (fresh): 1.12/1.44/0.6
Eggs: 2.25/0.4/0.15
Eggshells: 1.19/0.38/0.14
Feathers: 15.3/0/0
Felt Wastes: 14.0/0/1.0
Field Beans (seed): 4.0/1.2/1.3
Feild Beans (shells): 1.7/0.3/1.3
Fish (dried, ground): 8.0/7.0/0
Fish Scraps (fresh): 6.5/3.75/0
Gluten Meal: 6.4/0/0
Granite Dust: 0/0/3.0-5.5
Grapefruit Skins (ash): 0/3.6/30.6 (And people throw these things away? Wow!)
Grape Leaves: 0.45/0.1/0.4
Grape Pomace: 1.0/0.07/0.3
Grass (imature): 1.0/0/1.2
Greensand: 0/1.5/7.0
Hair: 14/0/0/0
Hoof and Horn Meal: 12.5/2.0/0
Horse Manure (fresh): 0.44/0.35/0.3
Incinerator Ash: 0.24/5.15/2.33
Jellyfish (dried): 4.6/0/0 (Incidentally, I don't dry mine before adding them to the pile)
Kentucky Bluegrass (green): 0.66/0.19/0.71
Kentucky Bluegrass (hay): 1.2/0.4/2.0
Leather Dust: 11.0/0/0
Lemon Culls: 0.15/0.06/0.26
Lemon Skins (ash): 06.33/1.0
Lobster Refuse: 4.5/3.5/0
Milk: 0.5/0.3/0.18
Millet Hay: 1.2/0/3.2
Molasses Residue
(From alcohol manufacture): 0.7/0/5.32
Molasses Waste
(From Sugar refining): 0/0/3.0-4.0
Mud (fresh water): 1.37/0.26/0.22
Mud (harbour): 0.99/0.77/0.05
Mud (salt): 0.4.0/0
Mussels: 1.0/0.12/0.13
Nutshells: 2.5/0/0
Oak Leaves: 0.8/0.35/0.2
Oats (grain): 2.0/0.8/0.6
Oats (green fodder): 0.49/0/0
Oat straw: 0/0/1.5
Olive Pomace: 1.15/0.78/1.3
Orange Culls: 0.2/0.13/0.21
Orange Skins: 0/3.0/27.0 (Right up there with Grapefruit. Note: both can attract fruit flies so, bury them in the compost)
Peach Leaves: 0.9/0.15/0.6
Pea forage: 1.5-2.5/0/1.4
Peanuts (seed/kernals): 3.6/0.7/0.45
Peanut Shells: 3.6/0.15/0.5 (I grind them up in the food processor first)
Pea Pods (ash): 0/3.0/9.0 (I cut them up with a pair of scissors while shelling them)
Pea (vines): 0.25/0/0.7
Pear Leaves: 0.7/0/0.4
Pigeon manure (fresh): 4.19/2.24/1.0
Pigweed (rough): 0.6/0.1/0
Pine Needles: 0.5/0.12/0.03
Potato Skins (ash): 0/5.18/27.5
Potaote Tubers: 0.35/0.15/2.5
Potatoe Vines (dried): 0.6/0.16/1.6
Prune Refuse: 0.18/0.07/0.31
Pumpkins (fresh): 0.16/0.07/0.26
Rabbitbrush (ash): 0/0/13.04
Rabbit Manure: 2.4/1.4/0.6
Ragweed: 0.76/0.26/0
Rapeseed meal: 0/1.0=2.0/1.0=3.0
Raspberry leaves: 1.45/0/0.6
Red clover hay: 2.1/0.6/2.1
Redrop Hay: 1.2/0.35/1.0
Rock and Mussel Deposits From Ocean: 0.22/0.09/1.78
Roses (flowers): 0.3/0.1/0.4
Rye Straw: 0/0/1.0
Salt March Hay: 1.1/0.25/0.75
Sardine Scrap: 8.0/7.1/0
Seaweed (dried): 1.1-1.5/0.75/4.9 (Seaweed is loaded with micronutrients including: Boron, Iodine, Magnesium and so on.)
Seaweed (fresh): 0.2-0.4/0/0
Sheep and Goat Manure (fresh): 0.55/0.6/0.3
Shoddy and Felt: 8.0/0/0
Shrimp Heads (dried): 7.8/4.2/0
Shrimp Wastes: 2.9/10.0/0
Siftings From Oyster Shell Mounds: 0.36/10.38/0.09
Silk Mill Wastes: 8.0/1.14/1.0
Silkworm Cocoons:10.0/1.82/1.08
Sludge: 2.0/1.9/0.3
Sludge (activated): 5.0/2.5-4.0/0.6
Smokehouse/Firepit Ash:0/0/4.96 (I put the ashes from my smoker in the pile)
Sorghum Straw:0/0/1.0
Soybean Hay: 1.5-3.0/0/1.2-2.3
Starfish: 1.8/0.2/0.25 (I'm not saying: "Go out and decimate starfish populations at our local beaches" but, the odd starfish would be okay. Incidentally, the edndoskeletons of starfish are made of Calcium Carbonate which, is slow to break down.)
String Beans (strings and stems, ash): 0/4.99/18.0 (Why we throw this stuff away? I have no idea. Look at all that potash!)
Sugar Wastes (raw): 2.0/8.0/0
Sweet Potatoes: 0.25/0.1/0.5
Swine Manure (fresh): 0.6/0.45/0.5
Tanbark Ash: 0/0.34/3.8
Tanbark Ash (spent): 0/1.75/2.0
Tankage: 3.0-11.0/2.0-5.0/0
Tea Grounds: 4.15/0.62/0.4
Timothy Hay: 1.2/0.55/1.4
Tobacco Leaves: 4.0/0.5/6.0
Tobacco Stems: 2.5-3.7/0.6-0.9/4.5-7.0
Tomatoe Fruit: 0.2/0.07/0.35 (A note on tomatoe fruit: These should be hot composted. I just let any rotted or insect eaten tomatoes compost in the soil beneath the plants and have "freebees" come back each consecutive year. Hot composting will kill the seeds.)
Tomatoe Leaves: 0.35/0.1/0.4
Tomatoe Stalks: 0.35/0.1/0.5
Tung Oil Pumace: 6.1/0/0
Vetch Hay: 2.8/0/2.3
Waste Silt: 9.5/0/0
Wheat Bran: 2.4/2.9/1.6
Wheat (grain): 2.0/0.85/0.5
Wheat Straw: 0.5/0.15/0.8
White Clover (Green): 0.5/0.2/0.3
Winter Rye Hay: 0/0/1.0
Wood Ash: 0/1.0-2.0/6.0-10.0 (A note on Wood ash: Wood Ash can contain chemicals that could harm plants and also carcinogens so, they should be composted in moderation)
Wool Wastes: 3.5-6.0/2.0-4.0/1.0-3.5

growster_23 said:

yo @Rasta Roy whats a good source of nitrogen when in flower? I'm getting yellowing of the bottom leaves and I'm only 17 days in thanks.

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If you got the finances than a liquid fish hydrolysate or all purpose seabird guano with some worm castings (or even just worm castings) would be best. An alfalfa tea would be great as well. An esponoma or jobes organic tomato fertilizer would work great too.

If you need to add nitrogen in flower it's best to add it with an all purpose type of fertilizer. Just adding a nitrogen source (like blood meal, high N Guano) can delay flowering, lead to more leaf growth than bud growth, and some high N ferts (like chicken shit) can temporarily raise soil pH. Which might not be that big of a deal in veg..But in flower where every day of nutrition uptake matters, it can be.

Rasta Roy said:

Just adding a nitrogen source (like blood meal, high N Guano) can delay flowering, lead to more leaf growth than bud growth, and some high N ferts (like chicken shit) can temporarily raise soil pH. Which might not be that big of a deal in veg..But in flower where every day of nutrition uptake matters, it can be.

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This is good info to have . I have had some overly leafy stuff that was likely caused by this.