Obamacare Insurance Exchange

tokeprep said:

What do you mean they aren't exempt? They have their own healthcare plan which is much, much better.

Click to expand...

lots of people have their own healthcare plans, doesn't make them exempt from the PPACA.

it's just a demonstrably false talking point that righties love to bring up as if it were fact, so i have no problem pointing out that they are lying asses.

tokeprep said:

Where is your liberalism at? You realize you're buying into insurance company bullshit without any reservations, don't you? Obamacare will not solve the healthcare problems in this country. Obamacare is a giveaway of tens of billions of dollars a year to the insurance companies who spent vast fortunes writing the Obamacare bill.

Click to expand...

my liberalism is around here somewhere.

i'm not so much praising the PPACA as i am dismissing kynes' talking points.

the PPACA will give minimum wage schlubs like him a safety net, enhancing his personal freedom and liberty.

for those doing better than kynes, it will ensure personal responsibility via the simple mechanism of the individual mandate.

kynes will face no "eternal debt servitude" to an insurance company, he will be taken care of and not have to worry about losing everything for falling ill, as it should be.

even miserable cretins like him don't deserve to lose everything they have just because they get sick.

UncleBuck said:

lots of people have their own healthcare plans, doesn't make them exempt from the PPACA.

it's just a demonstrably false talking point that righties love to bring up as if it were fact, so i have no problem pointing out that they are lying asses.

Click to expand...

I just don't understand what you mean when you say they're not "exempt from PPACA." Congress' plan has nothing to do with it. So what is your point? How does the act affect Congress' plan?

my liberalism is around here somewhere.

i'm not so much praising the PPACA as i am dismissing kynes' talking points.

the PPACA will give minimum wage schlubs like him a safety net, enhancing his personal freedom and liberty.

for those doing better than kynes, it will ensure personal responsibility via the simple mechanism of the individual mandate.

kynes will face no "eternal debt servitude" to an insurance company, he will be taken care of and not have to worry about losing everything for falling ill, as it should be.

even miserable cretins like him don't deserve to lose everything they have just because they get sick.

Click to expand...

You're wholeheartedly defending something that should be indefensible. Obama should be attacked for copping out to the healthcare industry, not praised for doing anything.

tokeprep said:

I just don't understand what you mean when you say they're not "exempt from PPACA." Congress' plan has nothing to do with it. So what is your point? How does the act affect Congress' plan?

Click to expand...

did i stutter?

as i said, i am correcting a false right wing talking point.

hell, even freedomworks dismissed the myth.

http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/lheal/no-congress-is-not-exempt-from-obamacare

tokeprep said:

You're wholeheartedly defending something that should be indefensible. Obama should be attacked for copping out to the healthcare industry, not praised for doing anything.

Click to expand...

nah, i'm more like half-assedly dismissing the indefensible comments of kynes.

but you believe what you want to believe.

UncleBuck said:

did i stutter?

as i said, i am correcting a false right wing talking point.

hell, even freedomworks dismissed the myth.

http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/lheal/no-congress-is-not-exempt-from-obamacare

Click to expand...

I see nothing dismissed. Obamacare has no effect whatsoever on the congressional healthcare plans. Your link doesn't contradict this at all. The congress-and its legion of its staffers will continue to enjoy healthcare far beyond what is available to average people.

nah, i'm more like half-assedly dismissing the indefensible comments of kynes.

but you believe what you want to believe.

Click to expand...

No, you're standing up for what should be indefensible on Obama's part. You should be ashamed, as a true believer, because no other true believers--in single payer, etc.--are so willing. You should be decrying Obama as a weak sellout in what you believe in, and yet here you are defending the bullshit that will pad the profits of rich business interests for decades to come.

tokeprep said:

Where is your liberalism at? You realize you're buying into insurance company bullshit without any reservations, don't you? Obamacare will not solve the healthcare problems in this country. Obamacare is a giveaway of tens of billions of dollars a year to the insurance companies who spent vast fortunes writing the Obamacare bill.

Click to expand...

Actually the Republicans wrote Obamacare

tokeprep said:

What do you mean they aren't exempt? They have their own healthcare plan which is much, much better.

Click to expand...

They arent exempt.

ChesusRice said:

Actually the Republicans wrote Obamacare

Click to expand...

Healthcare lobbyists were likely to be Republicans. Thus I agree: Republicans wrote Obamacare. They're living in Arlington highrises now, enjoying $300 steak dinners. Shall we celebrate that? Because I don't.

ChesusRice said:

They arent exempt.

Click to expand...

Again, so what? So nothing. That's the answer.

tokeprep said:

I see nothing dismissed. Obamacare has no effect whatsoever on the congressional healthcare plans. Your link doesn't contradict this at all. The congress-and its legion of its staffers will continue to enjoy healthcare far beyond what is available to average people.

Click to expand...

now i see why other people troll you.

the point of the PPACA is that if you have a nice plan, like a lawyer or astronaut or congressman might have, then the PPACA won't affect you. that was how it was billed from the beginning. so thanks for reinforcing that point.

actually, those people may be able to keep their kids on their plans longer, and not be denied due to pre-existing conditions, and not get as generally fucked as they otherwise would due to lifetime caps and excessive administrative costs. but otherwise the PPACA won't change anything about the plans those lawyers and astronauts and congress critters get.

my claim is that they are not exempt from the PPACA. this means they face the same penalty if they are wealthy enough to get insurance but choose not to, and the same penalty if some company they run does not offer insurance to its full timers. my claim is not the claim you are arguing about how the PPACA does not affect the healthcare plans of those in congress.

derp dee der.

tokeprep said:

No, you're standing up for what should be indefensible on Obama's part. You should be ashamed, as a true believer, because no other true believers--in single payer, etc.--are so willing. You should be decrying Obama as a weak sellout in what you believe in, and yet here you are defending the bullshit that will pad the profits of rich business interests for decades to come.

Click to expand...

i'm not a true believer in single payer. england does that, their way is not so great. still cheaper than ours, covers everyone, and gives damn good care overall, but not something that would work for us. too socialistishy to work.

and the PPACA is not entirely indefensible. there are many good components in it that even the staunchest douchebag right wingers sometimes believe in (especially when it benefits them).

my only point with kynes is that he is a dumbass for saying he is exchanging liberty and freedom and responsibility for eternal debt servitude, when someone like him will be gaining freedom and security and face no "eternal debt servitude" for being medicaid eligible at his income bracket.

you can go off chasing your own unrelated argument bunnies, but i'm probably gonna troll you now for this unpleasant exchange.

ChesusRice said:

Actually the Republicans wrote Obamacare

Click to expand...

democrat congressionals and their staffers, and insurance company lobbyists crafted that turd in secret, the "republicans" did not write SHIT you filthy degenerate liar.

The proposed America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 (or HR 3200)[SUP][1][/SUP] was an unsuccessful bill introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives on July 14, 2009. The bill was introduced during the first session of the 111th Congress as part of an effort of the Democratic Party leadership to enact health care reform. The bill was not approved by the House, but was superseded by a similar bill, the proposed Affordable Health Care for America Act (HR 3962), which was passed by the House in November 2009, by a margin of 220-215 votes.

~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Affordable_Health_Choices_Act_of_2009

it was written in secret, by THE DEMOCRAT LEADERSHIP, and even their lower echelons didnt know what it contained.
it was a pig in a poke, and it's still not clear what it's Volumes of sloppy language contains.

you know damned well that it was written by a secret cabal of lobbyists and democrats, but you peddle your lies freely, and hope that your bullshit will enter the mythology of popular conciusness, like "republicans were for McCarthyism, not democrats"
or "after 1968 all the racists in the democrat party became republicans"

you are a LIAR.

you write fiction and sell it as truth.

even michael moore is embarrassed by your inept lies.

lmao, even michael moore is embarrassed by your inept lies.

UncleBuck said:

now i see why other people troll you.

the point of the PPACA is that if you have a nice plan, like a lawyer or astronaut or congressman might have, then the PPACA won't affect you. that was how it was billed from the beginning. so thanks for reinforcing that point.

actually, those people may be able to keep their kids on their plans longer, and not be denied due to pre-existing conditions, and not get as generally fucked as they otherwise would due to lifetime caps and excessive administrative costs. but otherwise the PPACA won't change anything about the plans those lawyers and astronauts and congress critters get.

my claim is that they are not exempt from the PPACA. this means they face the same penalty if they are wealthy enough to get insurance but choose not to, and the same penalty if some company they run does not offer insurance to its full timers. my claim is not the claim you are arguing about how the PPACA does not affect the healthcare plans of those in congress.

derp dee der.

Click to expand...

It's a semantic matter. The people saying congress is exempt are saying it based on the fact that congress will get an exceedingly generous subsidy far, far beyond that available to anyone else under Obamacare. You're saying they "aren't exempt" because they still have to pay a penalty for not having insurance, etc. Ok. I'm rolling my eyes at both.

i'm not a true believer in single payer. england does that, their way is not so great. still cheaper than ours, covers everyone, and gives damn good care overall, but not something that would work for us. too socialistishy to work.

and the PPACA is not entirely indefensible. there are many good components in it that even the staunchest douchebag right wingers sometimes believe in (especially when it benefits them).

my only point with kynes is that he is a dumbass for saying he is exchanging liberty and freedom and responsibility for eternal debt servitude, when someone like him will be gaining freedom and security and face no "eternal debt servitude" for being medicaid eligible at his income bracket.

you can go off chasing your own unrelated argument bunnies, but i'm probably gonna troll you now for this unpleasant exchange.

Click to expand...

I don't believe in single payer either, but I also don't believe in insurance. Like I said, the insurance companies are going to end up netting tens of billions of dollars for their shareholders thanks to Obamacare. Why is anyone celebrating that? When they were smiling, clapping, and cheering on the bill, everyone should have realized we were fucking up--there's only one reason a business interest behaves that way. Insurance is the problem, not the solution:

1) Insurance locks people into certain doctors, clinics, and hospitals, preventing competition with the rest of the healthcare universe.
2) Insurance conceals and distorts information on cost, which is generally totally invisible to economic actors.
3) Insurance encourages the performance of services that generate payments.
4) Insurance provides a safety net that encourages bad behavior.

Healthcare costs are going to continue skyrocketing because nothing has changed.

tokeprep said:

I don't believe in single payer either, but I also don't believe in insurance. Like I said, the insurance companies are going to end up netting tens of billions of dollars for their shareholders thanks to Obamacare. Why is anyone celebrating that? When they were smiling, clapping, and cheering on the bill, everyone should have realized we were fucking up--there's only one reason a business interest behaves that way. Insurance is the problem, not the solution:

1) Insurance locks people into certain doctors, clinics, and hospitals, preventing competition with the rest of the healthcare universe.
2) Insurance conceals and distorts information on cost, which is generally totally invisible to economic actors.
3) Insurance encourages the performance of services that generate payments.
4) Insurance provides a safety net that encourages bad behavior.

Healthcare costs are going to continue skyrocketing because nothing has changed.

Click to expand...

Then why is the insurance industry pumping 100s of millions of dollars into defeating obamacare?

No matter what your perspective on the Affordable Care Act, this shocking bit of news should concern—and disturb—you greatly.
According to the National Journal’s Influence Alley, at the very same time the American Health Insurance Plans (AHIP)—the health insurance industry super lobby—was cutting a deal with the White House leading to its stated support of the proposed Obamacare legislation, they were secretly funneling huge amounts money to the Chamber of Commerce to be spent on advertising designed to convince the public that the legislation should be defeated.

How much money?
A stunning $102.4 million spent over just 15 months.
While one would not think that so much money could be spent in secret, AHIP pulled it off by utilizing a completely legal process of funneling the cash to the Chamber under the radar while putting the giant expenditure on their books under the simple heading of ‘advocacy’.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/06/25/busted-health-insurers-secretly-spent-huge-to-defeat-health-care-reform-while-pretending-to-support-obamacare/

ChesusRice said:

Then why is the insurance industry pumping 100s of millions of dollars into defeating obamacare?

No matter what your perspective on the Affordable Care Act, this shocking bit of news should concern—and disturb—you greatly.
According to the National Journal’s Influence Alley, at the very same time the American Health Insurance Plans (AHIP)—the health insurance industry super lobby—was cutting a deal with the White House leading to its stated support of the proposed Obamacare legislation, they were secretly funneling huge amounts money to the Chamber of Commerce to be spent on advertising designed to convince the public that the legislation should be defeated.

How much money?
A stunning $102.4 million spent over just 15 months.
While one would not think that so much money could be spent in secret, AHIP pulled it off by utilizing a completely legal process of funneling the cash to the Chamber under the radar while putting the giant expenditure on their books under the simple heading of ‘advocacy’.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/06/25/busted-health-insurers-secretly-spent-huge-to-defeat-health-care-reform-while-pretending-to-support-obamacare/

Click to expand...

the insurance companies were only opposed to ONE PROVISION, and thats the "Pre-Existing Conditions" clause

THEY wrote the rest of it, and that one provision made it unacceptable to them.

without that one clause, obamacare is nothing but a creature of the insurance lobby, and that one clause is cold comfort to those of us who will now be forced into obamacare under penalty of law.

Dr Kynes said:

the insurance companies were only opposed to ONE PROVISION, and thats the "Pre-Existing Conditions" clause

THEY wrote the rest of it, and that one provision made it unacceptable to them.

without that one clause, obamacare is nothing but a creature of the insurance lobby, and that one clause is cold comfort to those of us who will now be forced into obamacare under penalty of law.

Click to expand...

Medical Loss Ratio Many insurance companies spend a substantial portion of consumers’ premium dollars on administrative costs and profits, including executive salaries, overhead, and marketing.
The Affordable Care Act requires health insurance issuers to submit data on the proportion of premium revenues spent on clinical services and quality improvement, also known as the Medical Loss Ratio (MLR). It also requires them to issue rebates to enrollees if this percentage does not meet minimum standards. MLR requires insurance companies to spend at least 80% or 85% of premium dollars on medical care, with the review provisions imposing tighter limits on health insurance rate increases. If they fail to meet these standards, the insurance companies will be required to provide a rebate to their customers starting in 2012.

ChesusRice said:

Then why is the insurance industry pumping 100s of millions of dollars into defeating obamacare?

No matter what your perspective on the Affordable Care Act, this shocking bit of news should concern—and disturb—you greatly.
According to the National Journal’s Influence Alley, at the very same time the American Health Insurance Plans (AHIP)—the health insurance industry super lobby—was cutting a deal with the White House leading to its stated support of the proposed Obamacare legislation, they were secretly funneling huge amounts money to the Chamber of Commerce to be spent on advertising designed to convince the public that the legislation should be defeated.

How much money?
A stunning $102.4 million spent over just 15 months.
While one would not think that so much money could be spent in secret, AHIP pulled it off by utilizing a completely legal process of funneling the cash to the Chamber under the radar while putting the giant expenditure on their books under the simple heading of ‘advocacy’.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/06/25/busted-health-insurers-secretly-spent-huge-to-defeat-health-care-reform-while-pretending-to-support-obamacare/

Click to expand...

$100 million is chump change for these people. Six publicly traded health insurance companies took in $310 billion last year and made $14 billion in profit. AHIP has 1,300 member companies.

From 2008-2010--in just three years--insurance companies spent $450 million lobbying; hospitals spent $310 million; doctors spent $250 million; and other healthcare companies spent $220 million. $1.2 billion on lobbying in three years!

ChesusRice said:

Medical Loss Ratio Many insurance companies spend a substantial portion of consumers’ premium dollars on administrative costs and profits, including executive salaries, overhead, and marketing.
The Affordable Care Act requires health insurance issuers to submit data on the proportion of premium revenues spent on clinical services and quality improvement, also known as the Medical Loss Ratio (MLR). It also requires them to issue rebates to enrollees if this percentage does not meet minimum standards. MLR requires insurance companies to spend at least 80% or 85% of premium dollars on medical care, with the review provisions imposing tighter limits on health insurance rate increases. If they fail to meet these standards, the insurance companies will be required to provide a rebate to their customers starting in 2012.

Click to expand...

i dont give a shit about your Copy/Paste bullshit.

it can safely be assumed to be lies if posted by you, unless you provide the source jackass.

"With the frenzy of lobbying in the last quarter of 2009, the two-year total will go well beyond $1 billion.

The drug industry alone has spent $199 million on lobbying in the first nine months of the year, which CRP said was the largest such amount ever spent by any industry on any issue. The drug lobby negotiated a deal with the White House in the spring to limit to $80 billion over ten years the amount that the drug companies would have to accept in discounts and rebates as their “contribution” to paying for the health care overhaul. Efforts by some Senate and House Democrats to impose greater costs on the industry, as much as $200 billion, have been beaten back with the support of the Obama administration."

~ http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2009/12/lobb-d22.html

Dr Kynes said:

i dont give a shit about your Copy/Paste bullshit.

it can safely be assumed to be lies if posted by you, unless you provide the source jackass.

"With the frenzy of lobbying in the last quarter of 2009, the two-year total will go well beyond $1 billion.

The drug industry alone has spent $199 million on lobbying in the first nine months of the year, which CRP said was the largest such amount ever spent by any industry on any issue. The drug lobby negotiated a deal with the White House in the spring to limit to $80 billion over ten years the amount that the drug companies would have to accept in discounts and rebates as their “contribution” to paying for the health care overhaul. Efforts by some Senate and House Democrats to impose greater costs on the industry, as much as $200 billion, have been beaten back with the support of the Obama administration."

~ http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2009/12/lobb-d22.html

Click to expand...

Pharmaceutical companies spent about $750 million lobbying from 2008-2010. In the last 15 years they've spent $2.7 billion.

Dr Kynes said:

it can safely be assumed to be lies if posted by you

Click to expand...

let me crawl in through the window in the dark and enjoy the irony of this statement.

tokeprep said:

Pharmaceutical companies spent about $750 million lobbying from 2008-2010. In the last 15 years they've spent $2.7 billion.

Click to expand...

i didnt have a source for the current numbers, but even the World Socialist Party thinks that Obamacare is a RACKET designed to profit the politicians and the insurance companies.


thats some rich creamy irony right there.

Edit: also it was an opportunity to demonstrate how you quote a sourc3 and attribute it, cuz cheezy cant seem to figure that out.