Let's talk about this stupid immigration issue

canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
No one really is serious about immigration, even when they say they are. I have run numbers that indicate that even allowing for the taxes that illegals pay, the contribution to the national work force and their being consumers - we would be better served to actually round up all illegals and deport them. The cost is NOT prohibitive. Now remember that I am a liberal and being such am not as against expansion of government or the expenditure of government collected taxation so the concept of going out and picking up every illegal in the country is not as abhorrent to me as it would be to a conservative..

What is being missed due to short memories and lazy legislators is that we tried this amnesty thing before and the result was an even larger influx of illegals this go round. Amnesty in any form does not work. What it is, is a statute of limitations rule that encourages more of the same. "listen Quac, if you manage to get to this country and stay here long enough, eventually the government will give you a pass".

A true fence and well guarded southern border is a great start. Next would be a real streamlining of immigration and naturalization rules that would actually give folks of little means a chance at getting into this country legitimately and in a short amount of time. I read recently that it could take as long as 28 years to become a U.S. citizen if one has no contacts or "friends" in the country.

But I am aware that most illegals aren't illegal because the legal system is too cumbersome, they never even attempted to do things the legal way. They simply don't see the point in going that route when they don't have to.

Which brings me to the real argument. Why are we punishing people who for the most part simply want to make a better life for themselves? Why aren't we going after the source of the problem - the companies that hire illegals.

I recall once, years ago, just before the last amnesty move, seeing a line. I was consulting for a carpet company, a large one. I saw a line of thirty or forty latinos waiting to get to a truck and on the flatbed of this truck were several people giving something to each person in the line, one at a time. I asked what they were doing and was told not to ask, i asked anyway and discovered that these people were being paid every friday in cash for their work that week installing carpet.


It is the illegal's "fault" for being in this country, but he is only enabled to be here if he has a legitimate job. Serious sanctions placed upon employers would eliminate a number of problems. When illegals (those from the south) get to this country they manage to find low paying jobs - jobs that pay so poorly that they cannot afford to live in their own apartments but pack themselves into houses or apartments in multiple families.


There is a national child support database that enables states through the federal government to discover all new hires within a single fiscal quarter. If this database and system were used to keep illegals from being able to find employment it would quickly slow the flow of illegals and begin to reverse that flow.

Most companies are aware that they can skirt employment laws - employment services or "manpower" workers know full well that their people are illegal and they are not sanctioned when that is discovered.

Strict rules and harsh punishment for employers who hire illegals would go a long way. Better safeguards on falsified social security numbers would protect the companies that truely want to comply but are fooled by counterfit paper.

Finally, an international PR campaign would help greatly. I have seen the pamphlets passed out in Mexico on how to manage one's self when they are attempting to cross the border or after they have reached the United States. Some of those pamphlets are distributed by well meaning U.S. organizations but the point they make to the population is that illegal entry and habitation in the U.S. is not a big deal. If we have it appear to be a big deal, then it will become at least to some, a big deal.



So we have a fence, deportation of anyone caught breaking any other laws in the U.S., strong sanctions against employers of illegals, safeguards against counterfit social security numbers and a campaign informing potentials that they could be jailed before being deported (or something scary). I don't know what the constitutionality of holding an illegal until he finds the money to pay for his transit out of the country is but this might be worth looking into.


Any thoughts?
 
Fungus Gnat

Fungus Gnat

Well-Known Member
Get them to organize into a union and the powers that be would round them up and deport them the next day.
 
nitro harley

nitro harley

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
No one really is serious about immigration, even when they say they are. I have run numbers that indicate that even allowing for the taxes that illegals pay, the contribution to the national work force and their being consumers - we would be better served to actually round up all illegals and deport them. The cost is NOT prohibitive. Now remember that I am a liberal and being such am not as against expansion of government or the expenditure of government collected taxation so the concept of going out and picking up every illegal in the country is not as abhorrent to me as it would be to a conservative..

What is being missed due to short memories and lazy legislators is that we tried this amnesty thing before and the result was an even larger influx of illegals this go round. Amnesty in any form does not work. What it is, is a statute of limitations rule that encourages more of the same. "listen Quac, if you manage to get to this country and stay here long enough, eventually the government will give you a pass".

A true fence and well guarded southern border is a great start. Next would be a real streamlining of immigration and naturalization rules that would actually give folks of little means a chance at getting into this country legitimately and in a short amount of time. I read recently that it could take as long as 28 years to become a U.S. citizen if one has no contacts or "friends" in the country.

But I am aware that most illegals aren't illegal because the legal system is too cumbersome, they never even attempted to do things the legal way. They simply don't see the point in going that route when they don't have to.

Which brings me to the real argument. Why are we punishing people who for the most part simply want to make a better life for themselves? Why aren't we going after the source of the problem - the companies that hire illegals.

I recall once, years ago, just before the last amnesty move, seeing a line. I was consulting for a carpet company, a large one. I saw a line of thirty or forty latinos waiting to get to a truck and on the flatbed of this truck were several people giving something to each person in the line, one at a time. I asked what they were doing and was told not to ask, i asked anyway and discovered that these people were being paid every friday in cash for their work that week installing carpet.


It is the illegal's "fault" for being in this country, but he is only enabled to be here if he has a legitimate job. Serious sanctions placed upon employers would eliminate a number of problems. When illegals (those from the south) get to this country they manage to find low paying jobs - jobs that pay so poorly that they cannot afford to live in their own apartments but pack themselves into houses or apartments in multiple families.


There is a national child support database that enables states through the federal government to discover all new hires within a single fiscal quarter. If this database and system were used to keep illegals from being able to find employment it would quickly slow the flow of illegals and begin to reverse that flow.

Most companies are aware that they can skirt employment laws - employment services or "manpower" workers know full well that their people are illegal and they are not sanctioned when that is discovered.

Strict rules and harsh punishment for employers who hire illegals would go a long way. Better safeguards on falsified social security numbers would protect the companies that truely want to comply but are fooled by counterfit paper.

Finally, an international PR campaign would help greatly. I have seen the pamphlets passed out in Mexico on how to manage one's self when they are attempting to cross the border or after they have reached the United States. Some of those pamphlets are distributed by well meaning U.S. organizations but the point they make to the population is that illegal entry and habitation in the U.S. is not a big deal. If we have it appear to be a big deal, then it will become at least to some, a big deal.



So we have a fence, deportation of anyone caught breaking any other laws in the U.S., strong sanctions against employers of illegals, safeguards against counterfit social security numbers and a campaign informing potentials that they could be jailed before being deported (or something scary). I don't know what the constitutionality of holding an illegal until he finds the money to pay for his transit out of the country is but this might be worth looking into.


Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
As long as the bus was full I would buy all the diesel for at least one bus....And I know I could start a fund raiser to fill the tank in others....All are goverment has to do is ask and all kinds of public funding would be available ............nitro..
 
tumorhead

tumorhead

Well-Known Member
We solved the immigration issue easily in the 1950's, google "operation wetback", it's so simple it's laughable that we have so much back and forth when we've solved it before, and easily could again if we actually wanted to. But many people both conservative and liberal have reasons for not wanting, conservatives want the cheap labor...
 
NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
I agree with you in the fact that if we were serious the first thing we would do is secure the border.

The government created the illegal immigration problem through negligence, it fosters it through incompetence, and continues it through apathy while maintaining it is a serious issue...
 
nitro harley

nitro harley

Well-Known Member
tumorhead said:
We solved the immigration issue easily in the 1950's, google "operation wetback", it's so simple it's laughable that we have so much back and forth when we've solved it before, and easily could again if we actually wanted to. But many people both conservative and liberal have reasons for not wanting, conservatives want the cheap labor...
Click to expand...
That was a good read.....

Looks like we have a blue print that may work............nitro..
 
nontheist

nontheist

Well-Known Member
I don't know canndo but this issue is getting more expensive every year and will eventually hit a breaking point. We're a nation of lies and misdirection, political correctness has reached a point that we can no longer step back analyze a problem (with all the information) and take steps to correct it. We run into this same problem with welfare, urban education etc. We know there's problems but we're to damn worried about hurting someones feelings that we would rather not even try to fix it. The problems keep compounding year after year and all we do is throw more money at it. The numbers indicate Amnesty will cost tax payers trillions, and as you said it would be cheaper to deport them but we don't want that either. We could remove auto citizenship for children (this is what costs us) but without a very good border security all this is moot. Instead of dumping thousands of troops in the unemployment market lets send them to the border. They have the man power, training and technology to a much more adequate job and they're already budgeted.
 
tumorhead

tumorhead

Well-Known Member
If you penalize employers of illegals you would solve the immigration problem. No work = go back to mexico on their own as many of the hispanic guys I hired in the past have done, they moved back to mexico saying even though it's less money they're with their families.

We're still facebook friends, it looks like a libertarians dream:
eddieM2.jpg
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
nontheist said:
I don't know canndo but this issue is getting more expensive every year and will eventually hit a breaking point. We're a nation of lies and misdirection, political correctness has reached a point that we can no longer step back analyze a problem (with all the information) and take steps to correct it. We run into this same problem with welfare, urban education etc. We know there's problems but we're to damn worried about hurting someones feelings that we would rather not even try to fix it. The problems keep compounding year after year and all we do is throw more money at it. The numbers indicate Amnesty will cost tax payers trillions, and as you said it would be cheaper to deport them but we don't want that either. We could remove auto citizenship for children (this is what costs us) but without a very good border security all this is moot. Instead of dumping thousands of troops in the unemployment market lets send them to the border. They have the man power, training and technology to a much more adequate job and they're already budgeted.
Click to expand...
I got a problem with removing auto citizenship. That happens to be a fundamental right in the U.S. You get born here regardless of the situation, you get your full complement of rights. When I hear of folks who hold that an "infringement" of round capacity for a semi-automatic weapon spells the bitter end to constitutional liberties I wonder at their willingness to remove other's rights even more easily and I hear of lots of folks who want that pesky "born here, you are a citizen" gone even as they insist that they like the Constitution as it is.


I also know that if I can go down the block and score some heroin that was made in Afghanistan that no border is going to work very well.


But there is a big difference between a border that works poorly and open access - so even if it is simply a matter of due process and protocol, we have to start by making the border a symbol. "this is our land, we like you, we really do and if you knock on the front door we might let you in but we simply cannot accommodate you any other way"
 
nontheist

nontheist

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
I got a problem with removing auto citizenship. That happens to be a fundamental right in the U.S. You get born here regardless of the situation, you get your full complement of rights. When I hear of folks who hold that an "infringement" of round capacity for a semi-automatic weapon spells the bitter end to constitutional liberties I wonder at their willingness to remove other's rights even more easily and I hear of lots of folks who want that pesky "born here, you are a citizen" gone even as they insist that they like the Constitution as it is.


I also know that if I can go down the block and score some heroin that was made in Afghanistan that no border is going to work very well.


But there is a big difference between a border that works poorly and open access - so even if it is simply a matter of due process and protocol, we have to start by making the border a symbol. "this is our land, we like you, we really do and if you knock on the front door we might let you in but we simply cannot accommodate you any other way"
Click to expand...
I respect that as I am well aware removing auto citizenship can have unintentional consequences. To keep this right we have to stem to flood, our joke of a system now has to be overhauled. We have to proactively try to stop illegals from entering at will.
 
nontheist

nontheist

Well-Known Member
tumorhead said:
If you penalize employers of illegals you would solve the immigration problem. No work = go back to mexico on their own as many of the hispanic guys I hired in the past have done, they moved back to mexico saying even though it's less money they're with their families.


We're still facebook friends, it looks like a libertarians dream:
View attachment 2504920
Click to expand...
unfortunately all this does is increase identity theft. This has been tried and a fool proof system apparently violates too many rights.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
tumorhead said:
If you penalize employers of illegals you would solve the immigration problem. No work = go back to mexico on their own as many of the hispanic guys I hired in the past have done, they moved back to mexico saying even though it's less money they're with their families.

We're still facebook friends, it looks like a libertarians dream:
View attachment 2504920
Click to expand...
the argument is that we shouldn't make businesses the gate keepers. We shouldn't burden them with yet another regulation. We havn't the right to make businesses the border patrol.


The argument begins to fail though when you ask them about drug testing in the workplace - they don't seem to have a problem being drug cops and paying a heck of a lot more than they would on immigration issues over that.

And of course they are the deadbeat police as well, paying those costs as well.

The point is usually, however, that many businesses activiy seek out and employ illegals.


My wife is the general manager of an independent heavy equipment rental yard. Sad to say that a portion of my household income is derived from illegals. Her business found a niche in that it does not require the same credit and validation in order to rent that the big guys do - so hers is the one stop shop for illegals. "three hundred dollar deposit if you want to rent that cement mixer" - ( through a son who interprets) "that's outrageous, I could go down the street and put a hundred down" "Go right ahead and try, I'll have your mixer ready when you come back".


Now, why so much for a mixer? because that is what they are selling for used in Tijuana But the point is that many of them are employed by sleezey contractors - MANY are. These illegals work hard, many of them are craftsmen. They don't complain, they show up for work and they are happy to get the money they do - which is a fraction of what the legal framers or drywallers or door hangers get. It is easy to get help - you tell one of your employees and within a month you can have his brother in law or his cousin or his uncle. If paying in cash is too frightening (and most times it is not) Then a fake social security number is 500 bucks or less. If their wives are with them they sell tamales office too office. In these situations there is always a fully legal front person - usually a woman and usually mistreated otherwise - I admire the culture and the culture's work ethic but I have a big problem with their treatment of women. I have on occasion thrown some of them out of the office for the way they treated my wife who knows more about equipment then they could ever hope to.

I think it is funny when it is obvious that she is running the place but they direct their questions to me- it being obvious that - in a suit and tie, I probably know nothing about that stump grinder.

Oh - and that language thing the right makes such an issue of? While this is anecdotal - I can't count the number of times I've seen an old wiley coot taking through his son or grandson until he gets outside of the office where he speaks perfectly passable english. The ploy probably works in most places. - act illiterate and maybe you can come back and claim that you didn't understand that bringing the equipment back without a full tank is a $100 charge.
 
tumorhead

tumorhead

Well-Known Member
nontheist said:
unfortunately all this does is increase identity theft. This has been tried and a fool proof system apparently violates too many rights.
Click to expand...
If we switched to a tamper proof state issued ID card/drivers license and required employers to verify the SS# with a federal database + the ID card I don't see how they could mass produce enough fake id's and corresponding SS# to become an epidemic.

@canndo I know how it is, I used to work for a general contractor then got my own license and partnered with the head hispanic guy. I was the clean cut white guy who negotiated jobs while hector was in charge of labor. They worked harder than any white guys, by a long shot.

Why wouldn't I seek them out since I could rely on them to do the work faster and better than most people unless there was a penalty I would face for doing so? They worked 14+ hour days because I paid them well.
 
nontheist

nontheist

Well-Known Member
tumorhead said:
If we switched to a tamper proof state issued ID card/drivers license and required employers to verify the SS# with a federal database + the ID card I don't see how they could mass produce enough fake id's and corresponding SS# to become an epidemic.
Click to expand...
You see the liberals will scream this puts an undo burden on minorities that can't afford this to vote much less get a job. You see the dilemma of the political bullshit we have spun?
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
nontheist said:
I respect that as I am well aware removing auto citizenship can have unintentional consequences. To keep this right we have to stem to flood, our joke of a system now has to be overhauled. We have to proactively try to stop illegals from entering at will.
Click to expand...
I see yet another benefit of actually staunching the flow of undocumented illegal people. If there was a controlable population number, that would mean that labor might just no longer be unlimited. It is only in a situation where there is unlimited semi-skilled labor that we need wage supports and minimum wage laws.


I don't think that many, especially those on the left understand just what sort of a problem illegal immigration truely is. They may think they know but they don't have occasion to see it.

I have many many times and it represents a hidden drag on small communities, especially communities that because they are bounded on all sides by other communities are unable to grow.

In these situations, we see houses that support not one "family" not two but three or four. I have seen a 2 bedroom house where 18 people lived, shack like structures being built along the walls of the house, the garage having been refitted so that it looks like a garage but the garage part is only 3 feet deep, behind that is a dwelling where 6 batchelors live. Of course each of them uses the single toilet in the house along with the other members. OF course they all have cars which they park somewhere on the street or front lawn. Now, this is not a single instance but every third or fifth house in entire neighborhoods. The garbage collection people have trouble, the water mains are under capacity, the streets are cracked from disrepair because the city cannot collect the taxes beyond those levied on a single, single family dwelling. The police cannot keep up, the air pollution rises - all because local ordinances are so grossly violated and living space is saturated. This sort of thing even destroys the culture of the area. After seeing half a dozen of those sorts of situations a day for several years I became a firm supporter of anything that could curtail this sort of thing - it's bad for us and it's bad for them - they are for the most part nice folks who want the same things the rest of us want and are simply taking advantage of a situation - pretty much the American way.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Y U Make Me Agree Wif U??!!!

illegal immigration causes massive problems, from crime ridden barrios of people who are afraid to call the cops when victimized by the gangs that dominate their lives to a captive workforce terrified theyll be reported to La Migra if they speak up against their oppressors, to ACTUAL SLAVERY( http://articles.latimes.com/1993-09-14/local/me-35070_1_back-wages ), all caused by the cupidity of our "Leaders" and the duplicity of the ultra-lefty bleeding hearts who cry RACISM!! whenever the concept of border security is discussed.

Most pro-illegal voices trot out the strawmen that "undocumented workers" "only take the jobs ameriicans dont want" but as a cat who has been displaced by "insourcing" several times ill tell you that aint true.

in california, the wages for a forklift operator, a farm hand, construction workers, and "service jobs" has fallen to below the cost of living. even jobs at McDonalds have fallen become difficult to find, and many "contractors" for big companies like wal-mart, target, and even state county and city buildings have been filled by illegals who actually get paid far less than minimum wage.

the cost of auditing all these "contractor" businesses who hire illegals for illegally low wages makes the chances of getting caught braking the many existing employment laws almost infinitesimal. the state is spending so much on educating, providing healthcare, and coddling illegals and their kids that they cant even afford to investigate the criminal "employers" who are abusing their serfs.

the costs to society for keeping a perpetual underclass in bondage is staggering, butt the costs of actually DOING something about the problem would cost so much in the short term and result in so much butthurt among the shrill voices who LIKE having cheap lettuce and dont mind getting it from a slave, and the shreiking wails of the clowns who equate all law enforcement which necessarily targets brown people with RACISM!! that nothing can be done without real action which will inevitably cost some politicians their jobs.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
nontheist said:
unfortunately all this does is increase identity theft. This has been tried and a fool proof system apparently violates too many rights.
Click to expand...

Hard to believe that in this day and age we can't pretty much guarantee that a social security number not be recycled. Identity theft is not, from my experience, the actual way these folks attempt to appear legal. Of course it must happen but there must be ways to keep the other methods under control.
 
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