Jacks is a great, cheap, 1 part nutrient line for soil growers & it can not be matched/beat in a soil grow with store bought nutes, but does noone understand that buying Fox farm dirt is a nutrient expense? Does nobody understand that Jacks marks their shit up just as much if not more than GH, Canna, or AN? Arent all these companies using basic ingredients that can be bought in bulk for next to nothing? If price is the determining factor then mix ur own, not difficult but not as CONVENIENT as putting 6 mills of this with 2 mills of that. LMFAO, crazy, no debate here, just the facts that people ask for.
Lets debunk AN and other companies products with FACTS.
- Thread starter BROBIE
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Oh, so Fox farm is reuseable then? Its mostly inert correct?
TonightYou
Well-Known Member
Where did I say perlite isn't inert? Switch out my happy frog and perlite cut with straight perlite, the fertilizer remains the same. It doesn't make a difference, you are conflating the sum of the costs (mediums, fertilizers, lighting, electricity for fans, equipment) with simply the one variable, the fertilizer. That is what we are discussing here, if you'd be so inclined, carry out the math with your scenario using both fertilizers with different mediums/pot sizes/ flower time/feed. Those are the variables you can feel free to change, but the fertilizer ratios will stay the same.
If you think Happy Frog is soil, you are mistaken, its not. Could I re use the Happy Frog and Perlite? Yes but its is simply easier to dispose of. That has nothing to do with the variable we are discussing which is using a fertilizer base. Don't deflect the conversation, lets discuss the science behind both fertilizers.
And yes, you could do this even cheaper, but this thread is "Lets Debunk AN and other companies", and that is what I've posted. Lets stay on topic.
ETA I'd love to see your math, because I think you are quite mistaken.
TonightYou
Well-Known Member
Yes its mostly inert. You do get some salt buildup so you'd need to condition it. I've reused it for veggies. Basically I shake the harvested plant out, and then take the soil in buckets. Then I run about three times the volume of water through it. Slap it in an open bin, I then add some beneficial microbes into the old dirt. Let it dry out, and I usually add some more perlite and fresh Happy Frog mixed in. Good to go.
Edited to add, I think we are on the same page Jbone. Yes it can be done WAY cheaper, but I'm thinking of the "average" grower who is either running some tents, or rocking a room. The idea is to have a great medium that supplies the plants exactly what it needs to be healthy. Most growers are not conditioning soil and buying cheap 50 lb bags for their 12-50 plant grow.
Huh, so ur happy frog is reuseable yet you CHOOSE to buy more? That cost is not added when u debate with a hydro grower who has reuseable medium? So BUYING a soil that has a advertised NPK has no impact on nutrient selection? Thats just strange, I thought when companies advertised a NPK VALUE on the medium they did it to suggest it already has nutes in it but using ur logic it is inert n has no impact on nutrients available for plant health. Using this logic, why not use promix or perlite with ur complete fert? What is the cal/mag/nit ratio of the Jacks you use?
TonightYou
Well-Known Member
Dude, I'm lazy. I have a bad back and really bending over with buckets of soil and going through the process is labor some and time consuming. Lets go through the process, first I have plants harvesting at different times. Which means I'm doing it regularly on top of spending a couple hours harvesting a couple plants. So I'm doing this process which is labor some, and takes about 15-20 minutes running water through the soil. Now I have to have an extra bin, which means space. I live where I grow, its not like I want my apartment to have containers of soil all over the place. So I have to do this each and every time, have an extra bin, lifting 3 gallon soaked buckets, and adding a timed process into my life. I'm not aiming for complete and utter maximization, I'm simply growing for myself. My goals are not commercial, and I agree I could save money by re using my soil. Due to my fucked spine, its easier on me and well worth paying $10/bag and a giant bag of perlite for $20 which will last me at least 6 months.
The focus is on using fertilizers and the costs associated to not understanding NPK, nutritional availability, and marketing. I mean just look at the difference of the websites and how they present the information on their products.
There is a charge in Happy Frog and Ocean Forest including the nitrates added using worm castings, but again, that doesn't make it a soil. Think of it as additives to an otherwise inert medium. It gets used up so quickly, once you get into the veg state.
To answer you last question, refer to my post or the following links:
http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Classic/Citrus-FeED.html
http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Classic/All-Purpose.html
churchhaze
Well-Known Member
This post in a nutshell explains why DWC is so much more convenient than soil or potting mix. I'm so glad I don't have to haul around buckets of soil.
To make things worse, soil gets everywhere, and then you have to clean up.
To make things worse, soil gets everywhere, and then you have to clean up.
TonightYou
Well-Known Member
Yea but I'm not growing in an area with an awesome connection to a water source. So instead of hauling dirt, I'm hauling water. Not knocking the style, I haven't done it. I do use a clone bucket from time to time, and do love the growth I can get out of it when I throw in some jacks (I know its not suppose to go in there, but it does work, I'm sure it isn't great for my sprayer but thats what soaks in ISO are for). Plus I'm not a fan of hauling that damn clone bucket out, but I do have an affinity towards it.
THIS!!! And it has the added bonus of knowing exactly how much ur plant feeds eliminating most every problem possible and gives you an educated base line to use when debating with an "good gardener" who knows his shit, ppm is undeniable.
jcdws602
Well-Known Member
ppm does not and I repeat does not eliminate most every problem possible.....ppm is a rough estimate of salts that is all...what about environment which imho is the single most important variable when growing after that is nutrient availability.......
Hauling water sucks......mixing soil sucks.......... but is re useable and re amending is a lot cheaper.....I have grown hydroponically (ebb and grow,ebb and flow,top feed,aero and dwc) but I rather be mixing soil than messing with filling 55 to 115 water reservoirs, worrying about timers,clogged sprayers ppm's,ph, & water temps........Idk but after a little over 5 years of hydro I was done and never looked back.The only bottle I buy now is Dyna gro's pro-tekt
Hauling water sucks......mixing soil sucks.......... but is re useable and re amending is a lot cheaper.....I have grown hydroponically (ebb and grow,ebb and flow,top feed,aero and dwc) but I rather be mixing soil than messing with filling 55 to 115 water reservoirs, worrying about timers,clogged sprayers ppm's,ph, & water temps........Idk but after a little over 5 years of hydro I was done and never looked back.The only bottle I buy now is Dyna gro's pro-tekt
TonightYou
Well-Known Member
I don't need ph meters, and ppm nonsense. I know I have good water, I know a tablespoon of Jacks is 750 ppm.
If you know how to read your environment and your plants, you can tell if somethings off. No need for fancy equipment. I've been gardening for more years than I've been growing cannabis.
If you know how to read your environment and your plants, you can tell if somethings off. No need for fancy equipment. I've been gardening for more years than I've been growing cannabis.
TonightYou
Well-Known Member
See thats why I am partial to my medium. It isn't too difficult, I just have a tub I retrieve from. When I'm done, its disposed. Haul a couple bags a year isn't big deal. Plus I feel like I'm running enough electrical equipment. I really don't need more pull on my circuit when I have a 400 hps, 440 cfm fan, 4ft floros and 4 small fans placed around. Why add the complexity, possibility of leaks, and extra points of failure? I can tell if somethings outta whack in my medium, and I know how to fix it.
AimAim
Well-Known Member
I grow in soil and it does not get everywhere to where I have to clean it up.
TonightYou
Well-Known Member
You do get the medium around the area. I find myself cleaning everything up once a week. Remove dead/dying foliage, clean up the air intake, wipe down the outside of the cool tube, replace tarp if necessary. Vacuum where necessary. If you want a good healthy garden, you have to put in the time. It takes me about an hour to clean up everything once a week.
TonightYou
Well-Known Member
Actually I have, I use to put it in my happy frog to help with drainage. Really just too expensive and didn't work as well as perlite. Thats why I'm using about 60/40 Happy frog perlite medium. I like to have good drainage and air exchange. I drilled holes all throughout my plastic containers to act like a fabric pot. I tried those, Liked it, but I found cleaning them annoying and they were rather expensive. Drilling the holes replicates the experience quite well.
Listen brother, I am by no means a guy who knows everything, im a simple guy who is lazy, thats why I run Hempy buckets, it eliminates all guesswork and is easy. I can run most any decent nute line n get great results. Dirt guys n hydro guys should not debate for this reason, if you over/under feed in dirt you will just be delayed a bit, over/under feed in hydro ur shit dies. Grow medium has to be taken into account when growing, spending money building / buying a soil that will save you from buying nutes, has to be added into the nutrient debate. Fox farm dirt isnt cheap and u cant reuse it. I look at nutes the exact same way I look at the gram per watt debate, it means nothing if you dont have all the info. A guy runnin a 3 week veg will always have a lower GPW than a guy running a 8 week veg doin a scrog, yeah it harvested more but u doubled ur veg time reducing ur annual harvest by half so it really didnt have a better return. Jacks is a great line, not complete but a great line for growers who have bought/made expensive dirt.
TonightYou
Well-Known Member
I never said I know everything, hell I learned quite a bit on the exercise on the different nutrient makeup. I never said my medium was the best way to go, there are a million ways to skin a cat. The grow medium is important yes, but we are supply nutrients right? So the fact remains the same, the focus is on the fertilizer we choose to use to supplement what would otherwise be in the natural environment. Either lines would work in these mediums. They are not too dissimilar, and the principles of what the plant wants it still in play.
The harvesting thing in my argument factors in to what makes up the nutrient lines. I've gone to great detail copying the info down, and figuring out what the different nutrients do. This isn't magic, or feelings. It is based on what is in that bottle or tub. I previously mentioned that bringing this topic up is a diversion, as yes there are millions of strains doing millions of different things under a million different lights, you get the point. What we are discussing is what does the fertilizer bring to the table. What does the fertilizer do? How easily is does it uptake into the roots? All these types of things impact what the point you are bringing up, yet the variable we are discussing is the fertilizer.
AimAim
Well-Known Member
OK I'll buy into that. I do clean up a bit of debris once a week or so. But I clean the rest of the house every week and manage to find plenty of dirt where I did not think it existed. So yes, there's plenty of cleaning up to do.