LED Noobs, STOP Buying China Junk

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Ace Yonder

Ace Yonder

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
Have you asked Supra? Maybe he builds them as a service to the community (those who can't DIY) as time allows? Will he accept any volume of orders?

I got the impression he was just helping people out in his spare time. If he's making a profit such that it could be a going concern (he would accept growing order volume, hire staff, etc.) it would be interesting to hear how he'd address what you perceive to be a paradox.
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I'm not talking about him selling lights, I'm talking about his ability to build quality lights for less money than a top tier panel of similar power consumption would cost you. This is just based on my following his DIY threads and the parts lists he supplies. My point was that his lights appear, in on-paper stats at least, to outperform anything on the market, and at a lower price point.

Also would like to clarify that when I said
Ace Yonder said:
If that is true, then why would it be impossible to build a light that was just as good as them for cheaper?
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the "them" I am referring to are the retail HQ panels, not Supra's lights.
 
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AquariusPanta

AquariusPanta

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
Blackstar's v2 flowering (UV) spectrum is:

60% 36x deep red 660nm
27% 16x red 630,
7% 4x blue 425nm
7% 4x white: 12000k

Grow Northern's Rebel (recreated in an Apollo) is:

7% IR 730
60% deep red 660
13% blue 450
White avg 5116k
- 7% white 3350k (3200-3500k)
- 13% white 6000k (5500-6500k)

I own both and the Blackstar is much more purple'ish. The Apollo copy of a GN Rebel produces a whiter, more balanced appearance. I don't know why. More blues?
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My definition of heavily is similar (laughs).

Interesting though, I always kind of thought my BS V2 was super red, not so much purple. Your Apollo is redder?
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
Ace Yonder said:
I'm not talking about him selling lights, I'm talking about his ability to build quality lights for less money than a top tier panel of similar power consumption would cost you.
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The fact that he doesn't sell them should answer your question. There are costs of running a business that you don't have when building a light in your garage for yourself.
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
AquariusPanta said:
Interesting though, I always kind of thought my BS V2 was super red, not so much purple. Your Apollo is redder?
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The Apollo GN Rebel copy looks whiter, not the pink/red color of the Blackstar v2 UV. Maybe because it has more blue LEDs. I don't know. I just copied what GN did. GN uses Phillips LED. The Apollo is epi-whatever. I'm not sure how comparable it is. It grows ok for $150. But, spending another $70 on a A51 RW75 would be a better choice. Or, the "lightbulbs" I mentioned.
 
SupraSPL

SupraSPL

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You guys hit it from every angle :leaf: I have appreciation for commercial lamps builders (like A51) providing us what I cannot, a relatively large quanitity of darn good lights that can make HPS growers start to wonder. But in all honesty, before COBs were available and I was limited to small single die LEDs, I chose cheapo HTG HPS kits rather than building a large DIY LED or buying a commercial LED. I was limitied to using LED for veg. So my thesis is, large COBs are the game changers. So what we growers need now is a quality commercial lamp that uses COBs.

Here is how it went down. Before COBs I was using red/deep red//warm white/blue. This setup stomped my 600W HPS watt for watt, but maybe too tedious to build on a large scale.
-Luxeon ES deep blues, 700mA, 55% minimum, $2.80/PAR W for top bin on stars
-Cree XPE reds, 700mA, 41% minimum, $6.30/PAR W for top bin on stars.
-Luxeon ES deep reds, 38% minimum, $5.60/PAR W for top bin on stars.
-Cree XTE 3000K, 700mA 33% minimum and cost $4.51/PAR W rare R3 bin on stars.

So the XTE whites were the weakest link, although they were the very best option at the time. But then COBs became available, HUGE improvement in efficiency and cheaper. Faster and easier to assemble the lamps.
-CXA3070 3000K Z2 bin, 700mA, 42.6% minimum, $3.36/PAR W.
Then the AB bins came out:
CXA3070 3000K AB bin, 700mA, 49% minimum $3.34/PAR W.
And what should thrill the commercial lamp builders and buyers:
-Vero 29 3K, 2.4A, 37% typical, $0.94/PAR W (if these can be mass produced, adios HPS).

For comparison, here are the very best single die warm white LEDs currently:
Cree XML2 3K T4, 700mA, 38.9% minimum, $4.85/PAR W
Cree XPL 3K U6, 700mA, 42.7% minimum, $5.23/PAR W
Cree XML2 3K T4, 2A, 30.1%, $2.51/PAR W
Cree XPL 3K U6, 2.1A, 32%, $2.40/PAR W

So as you can see, COBs are like a diffferent type of growing lamp. Once this catches on, it does not seem that there will be any single die based lamp that will be able to compete.

Also, so far it seems that warm whites work great on their own, so no worries about color mixing. The COBs stand up to the abuse of high heat very well. In my heatsink tests, even with the heatsinks running too hot to touch (57C, 135F), the COBs only lose 8-12% of their output. When we run them at more reasonable temps, 35C we only lose ~3%.
 
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Positivity

Positivity

Well-Known Member
Good info supra

I'm surprised you consider 37c hot to the touch though

Ambient here is 30c so that's barely warm for me

My China lights ran 60c plus and cut off the thermostat. I definitely consider that hot

Edit...correction noted.. Thanks
 
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SupraSPL

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Sorry that was a typo I fixed after the fact, it was 57C and probably would have gotten hotter but I stopped the test.
 
alesh

alesh

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
I don't think you can find spec sheets for the diodes used in Chinese lights, if they even have a concept of "bins," or if they present a spectral power diagram to be expected from a particular diode.
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Well you never know which chips/diodes are actually used. There are some data sheet from various manufacturers:
epistar - http://www.epistar.com.tw/upfiles/files_/
epileds - https://www.google.cz/search?&q=epileds&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#q=site:epileds.com.tw filetype:pdf product specification (has to be done through Google)
tyntek - http://www.tyntek.com.tw/en/upload/product/
various from ac-rc.net - http://ac-rc.net/images/data_sheet/
Google query "site:epileds.com.tw filetype:pdf" is quite powerful in finding data sheets. You can easily modify it to search any site you wish.

Some chips are really really crap.

edit: How can I disable smileys?
 
cityworker415

cityworker415

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
I'm not sure anyone said "nothing worthwhile" can be grown with Chinese epi-whatever lights. But, I know owners of said lights can be made to feel inferior. I think this has to do with the psychology of investment. When someone takes a position (invests with money, time, emotion, love, ego) they naturally become defensive when presented with information that they may not have made the best investment. This is where the phrase "throwing good money after bad" comes from. They become unobjective. That can manifest itself in realstylze response -- which went entirely in the opposite direction, as if his ability to grow was called into question (avoiding efficiency and insisting he could grow under candles.).

That's why I said I felt both sides talked past each other.

The bottom line is: if realstyles can pull 1g/w from his Mars lights, he could do 1.3g/w with more efficient (non-epi) lights. That's just science. It doesn't mean the non-epi lights will make a bad grower better. It doesn't mean a good grower can't grow with epi lights. It just means: if you're a good grower and you're into output (give or sell more to friends), the high-efficiency lights will pay for themselves in a grow or two.

It's hard to make that point without pushing owners of epi-whatever lights into defensive mode. That's something non-epi enthusiasts should try get better at. Being smuggly correct about something merely makes the circle of those people smaller than it needs to be. There's no reason this has to be a wedge issue.

I hope stylze gets 1g/w. I'm sure he'll be happy. It would be unfortunate if he let this discussion prevent him from trying an Area51 and comparing the results himself.
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I myself have a few lights, none are perfect but they work for my scene and discipline. When people will announce their stupidity don't be surprised when they get checked.

P.s. how can one fixed item be the best in a constant flux? .02

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Rollitup mobile app
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
Ace Yonder said:
I know. That was the EXACT point that I was making.
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When I read that last night I didn't understand what point you were making. But, this morning I think you were highlighting how we all make pragmatic choices? I.e., those who discourage Chinese epi-whatever lights (sometimes in a less-than friendly manner) themselves "settle for less" by purchasing an A51 instead of building their own COB.

I think that's a good point. I'm kind of doing the same thing with Cree lightbulbs from Home Depot (following something CaptainMorgan started a year or so ago). I look at all the DIY COB, heatsink, etc. threads and my first impression is: I don't have the time or mental energy to get into this topic. Maybe in 1-2 years after it's settled down (Supra's tested all the permutations of hint sink designs, fan speeds, etc.)... It's a little too "bleeding edge" for my temperament.

So, I make a pragmatic choice that Home Depot lightbulbs at ~100 lumens/watt is a good tradeoff. A little DIY mounting, aiming. But, no cooling (fan/heatsink) drama. That might cost me 20-40 lumens/watt? Probably similar to someone who makes the choice to buy an inexpensive Chinese epi-whatever light (20-40 lumens/watt less efficient than an Area 51?).

Whether that was your point or not, I think it's valid. It's a matter of degrees. Everyone "settles" based upon their personal wants/needs. Even the COB builders sacrifice efficiency for lower up-front costs (for example a fan instead of paying for more aluminum.).

(PS: What caused me to realize this was your point is @DonPetro asking in another thread how the HomeDepot lightbulbs compare to Vero 10 COBs. It caused me to think about why I'm not pursuing COBs. It's basically the cooling.).
 
SupraSPL

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
AZ, lots of good news regarding cooling for DIY. Turns out sanding the heatsink surface makes almost no difference as long as you use a good thermal paste. You dont have to tap and drill, you can just use kapton tape. And it turns out that passive cooling is more attainable than ever because COBs stand up to heat so well, especially if there is a little air movement from a circulation fan.

I agree DIY is changing fast, but luckily it is moving toward simplification and reducing cost. It will be nice when we find a reliable cheap way to passive cool the COBs and still get top notch performance.
 
AquariusPanta

AquariusPanta

Well-Known Member
SupraSPL said:
AZ, lots of good news regarding cooling for DIY. Turns out sanding the heatsink surface makes almost no difference as long as you use a good thermal paste. You dont have to tap and drill, you can just use kapton tape. And it turns out that passive cooling is more attainable than ever because COBs stand up to heat so well, especially if there is a little air movement from a circulation fan.

I agree DIY is changing fast, but luckily it is moving toward simplification and reducing cost. It will be nice when we find a reliable cheap way to passive cool the COBs and still get top notch performance.
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Does sanding the HS surface make for a better reflection though, regardless of hassle?

I came into the DIY COB picture at just the right time... :mrgreen:
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
SupraSPL said:
I agree DIY is changing fast, but luckily it is moving toward simplification and reducing cost. It will be nice when we find a reliable cheap way to passive cool the COBs and still get top notch performance.
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I was reading the heatsink thread. It's 16 pages long and only that many days old. I'm glad there are people who have that passion to pursue new things like this. I'm sure in a few months it will settle down and there will be some proven "best practice" designs. For example, your tests around page 4-5 varying power, heatsink size, fan speed (or no fan). That was kind of eye-opening. But, more eye opening to me is how that stuff was happening on day 4 or 5. (ha). It's a fast paced area.

There was a book in the dot-com era (1999) titled "Crossing the Chasm." (<<link) It was about technology changes, disruption to markets. It described the relationship between disruptive change and consumer acceptance as a bell curve.

pastedGraphic-copy1.jpg

I think this describes LED technology fairly well.

1. Innovators might be the engineers at Cree who created the COBs. They're the guys you slide food under the door to. They don't care if their discoveries are embraced by consumers. They just like discovering stuff. They live for it.

Managers bridge the gap between the somewhat irrelevant (closeted) inventors and the bleeding-edge early adopters who have a vision of how a discovery can be used. The manager can relate to the inventors who aren't motivated by profits, but rather the elegance of their own work. And, they can relate to how a discovery has market potential, but don't know how to get there.

2. Early Adopters appreciate the elegance, but they appreciate the application of that elegance more. Finding relevance for a product. They're visionary like the manager, but have the practical ability to apply the vision.

I see the COB builders today falling into this category.

3. The Early Majority appreciate stability more than something new just for the sake of being new. They'll accept disruption when the payoff is worth the risk (time, volatility, cost).

At the top of this curve is the "herd." The followers who want don't want to be left behind. The people who are motivated simply by everyone else doing it.

IMO, the herd also identifies those who buy over-priced "secret sauce" rebranded Chinese imports. They fall for the marketing. The idea that "this company wouldn't be selling lights if it didn't work" (without considering that maybe everyone buying said light is using the same herd logic.).

I think I'm in the herd. Maybe a little to the front of that curve.

4. The late majority are averse to change. They find what works and that's good enough. The new-fangled thing has to be fairly demonstrated for a period of time. They're not going to jump on board just because everyone else is doing it.

I think these are the Chinese import users. Stuff that worked 3-4 years ago is good enough.

5. The trailing edge are neo-luddites. HID users. Nothing will surpass fire contained in glass! They probably own stereos with vacuum tubes. :)

Anyway, the chasm refers to the space between innovators and market viability. When the "difficult" inventors have to surrender and let early adopters find applications for their inventions -- even if the application isn't pure in the inventor's eyes. A difficult co-existence where early adopters would have nothing to adopt without the inventor, but the invention essentially not existing without early adopters being able to find applications which the inventor could never "stoop" to himself.

It's all about market psychology.
 
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AquariusPanta

AquariusPanta

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
I was reading the heatsink thread. It's 16 pages long and only that many days old. I'm glad there are people who have that passion to pursue new things like this. I'm sure in a few months it will settle down and there will be some proven "best practice" designs. For example, your tests around page 4-5 varying power, heatsink size, fan speed (or no fan). That was kind of eye-opening. But, more eye opening to me is how that stuff was happening on day 4 or 5. (ha). It's a fast paced area.

There was a book in the dot-com era (1999) titled "Crossing the Chasm." It was about technology changes, disruption to markets. It described the relationship between disruptive change and consumer acceptance as a bell curve.

View attachment 3311369

I think this describes LED technology fairly well.

1. Innovators might be the engineers at Cree who created the COBs. They're the guys you slide food under the door to. They don't care if their discoveries are embraced by consumers. They just like discovering stuff. They live for it.

Managers bridge the gap the somewhat irrelevant (closeted) inventors and the bleeding-edge early adopters who have a vision of how a discovery can be used. They can relate to the inventors who aren't motivated by profits, but the elegance of their own work. And, they can relate to how a discovery has market potential, but don't know how to get there.

2. Early Adopters appreciate the elegance, but they appreciate the application of that elegance more. Finding relevance for a product. They're visionary like the manager, but have the practical ability to apply the vision.

I see the COB builders today falling into this category.

3. The Early Majority appreciate stability more than something new just for the sake of being new. They'll accept disruption when the payoff is worth the risk (time, volatility, cost).

At the top of this curve is the "herd." The followers who want don't want to be left behind. The people who decide simply because everyone else is doing it.

IMO, the herd also identifies those who buy over-priced "secret sauce" rebranded Chinese imports. They fall for the marketing. The idea that "this company wouldn't be selling lights if it didn't work" (without considering that maybe everyone buying said light is using the same herd logic.).

I think I'm in the herd. Maybe a little to the front of that curve.

4. The late majority are averse to change. They find what works and that's good enough. The new-fangled thing has to be fairly demonstrated for a period of time. They're not going to jump on board just because everyone else is doing it.

I think these are the Chinese import users. Stuff that worked 3-4 years ago is good enough.

5. The trailing edge of the curve are the neo-luddites. HID users. Nothing will surpass fire contained in glass! They probably own stereos with vacuum tubes.

Anyway, the chasm refers to the space between innovators and market viability. When the "difficult" inventors have to surrender and let early adopters find applications for their inventions -- even if the application isn't pure in the inventor's eyes. A difficult co-existence where early adopters would have nothing to adopt without the inventor, but the invention essentially not existing without early adopters being able to find applications which the inventor could never "stoop" to himself.

It's all about market psychology.
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I remember this graph popping up in my Project Management class I took in college some time ago. It's useful for self-identification and business purposes and probably more things than I can list.

I would say that the trough of disillusionment was around the time of 2010, before COBs (to my knowledge) weren't around and consumers only had access to the single-die LEDS (blue, red, green, etc.). The slope of enlightenment, to me, is clearly when COBs surfaced through and began to become more efficient and consumer-friendly (guessing 2011 to the present). I don't believe we've quite made it to the top of the plateau just yet, so that leaves some of us stuck between early adaptors (DIY builders) and early majority (commercial builders such as the DustySailor [@StarDustSailor]). The reason I leave individuals, such as @Eraserhead, out of the early majority section is because I have yet to hear any news of his company selling COB based fixtures (he makes the A51's correct?) and I currently see COBs replacing the single-die LEDs in the near future (if not already) - due to their simplicity and effectiveness. I'm sure he'll catch on if it's financially lucrative.

 
Greengenes707

Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
Production cobs are only weeks away...literally. I know of 3 companies that are going to be out within the next 3 months(one possible in a day or 2) that will offer great selection of top performing cobs. I can't talk about the ones I know right now, not my place...but just trust me they are basically here. And AT is not one of them...yet.
See ya hps.
 
nogod_

nogod_

Well-Known Member
By the time the big boys roll the panel off the line its obsolete in this circle. Thats what is so awesome about being here. This is literally the cutting edge. What you lose in not being able to buy @ wholesale, you gain in getting to build with tech that wont appear in premade for another year.
 
Socalrob

Socalrob

Well-Known Member
I have 2 A 51 xgs 190's but I find myself reading about cob's more and more. For what I need my lights are fine for now. I know there's growers here that have both cob's and production panels like AT, A51 etc. I would love to see a side by side, cob vs. A51 xgs or Rw. Or even you guys that are flowering with both, is there that big of difference in yield?.
 
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