LED Noobs, STOP Buying China Junk

az2000 said:

I think what set everyone off was realstylze coming on all gangsta-like, gonna produce a pound from candlelight.

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I have to disagree with this point, things were already set off by the time this thread was started, and Real's response was no more inflammatory than the initial post that started this thread. You can't blame people for getting defensive when someone (Who may or may not just be shilling for a light company) makes blanket statements about them and the lights they use. If someone starts a thread that says "All men with beards are impotent douche-bags who can't play guitar for shit" and a ZZ Top fan starts full on blasting the people who support that idea, it's not really the ZZ Top fan who "Set things off", you know what I mean? I think that if a light works for you, great, use it. I think the people who are so vehemently opposed to cheap LEDs are probably just unwilling to accept the remote possibility that maybe they overpaid, so they get aggressive and definitive with their statements about the potential of cheap LEDs. Notice you don't have people who use China lights starting threads blasting A51 or ApacheTech. They just don't want to be told that because they didn't spend $1600 on a light they clearly can't be growing anything worthwhile when they are sitting on jars of fire.

Ace Yonder said:

I have to disagree with this point, things were already set off by the time this thread was started, and Real's response was no more inflammatory than the initial post that started this thread. You can't blame people for getting defensive when someone (Who may or may not just be shilling for a light company) makes blanket statements about them and the lights they use. If someone starts a thread that says "All men with beards are impotent douche-bags who can't play guitar for shit" and a ZZ Top fan starts full on blasting the people who support that idea, it's not really the ZZ Top fan who "Set things off", you know what I mean? I think that if a light works for you, great, use it. I think the people who are so vehemently opposed to cheap LEDs are probably just unwilling to accept the remote possibility that maybe they overpaid, so they get aggressive and definitive with their statements about the potential of cheap LEDs. Notice you don't have people who use China lights starting threads blasting A51 or ApacheTech. They just don't want to be told that because they didn't spend $1600 on a light they clearly can't be growing anything worthwhile when they are sitting on jars of fire.

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Word.

Ace Yonder said:

I have to disagree with this point, things were already set off by the time this thread was started, ... They just don't want to be told that because they didn't spend $1600 on a light they clearly can't be growing anything worthwhile when they are sitting on jars of fire.

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I'm not sure anyone said "nothing worthwhile" can be grown with Chinese epi-whatever lights. But, I know owners of said lights can be made to feel inferior. I think this has to do with the psychology of investment. When someone takes a position (invests with money, time, emotion, love, ego) they naturally become defensive when presented with information that they may not have made the best investment. This is where the phrase "throwing good money after bad" comes from. They become unobjective. That can manifest itself in realstylze response -- which went entirely in the opposite direction, as if his ability to grow was called into question (avoiding efficiency and insisting he could grow under candles.).

That's why I said I felt both sides talked past each other.

The bottom line is: if realstyles can pull 1g/w from his Mars lights, he could do 1.3g/w with more efficient (non-epi) lights. That's just science. It doesn't mean the non-epi lights will make a bad grower better. It doesn't mean a good grower can't grow with epi lights. It just means: if you're a good grower and you're into output (give or sell more to friends), the high-efficiency lights will pay for themselves in a grow or two.

It's hard to make that point without pushing owners of epi-whatever lights into defensive mode. That's something non-epi enthusiasts should try get better at. Being smuggly correct about something merely makes the circle of those people smaller than it needs to be. There's no reason this has to be a wedge issue.

I hope stylze gets 1g/w. I'm sure he'll be happy. It would be unfortunate if he let this discussion prevent him from trying an Area51 and comparing the results himself.

az2000 said:

I'm not sure anyone said "nothing worthwhile" can be grown with Chinese epi-whatever lights. But, I know owners of said lights can be made to feel inferior. I think this has to do with the psychology of investment. When someone takes a position (invests with money, time, emotion, love, ego) they naturally become defensive when presented with information that they may not have made the best investment. This is where the phrase "throwing good money after bad" comes from. They become unobjective. That can manifest itself in realstylze response -- which went entirely in the opposite direction, as if his ability to grow was called into question (avoiding efficiency and insisting he could grow under candles.).

That's why I said I felt both sides talked past each other.

The bottom line is: if realstyles can pull 1g/w from his Mars lights, he could do 1.3g/w with more efficient (non-epi) lights. That's just science. It doesn't mean the non-epi lights will make a bad grower better. It doesn't mean a good grower can't grow with epi lights. It just means: if you're a good grower and you're into output (give or sell more to friends), the high-efficiency lights will pay for themselves in a grow or two.

It's hard to make that point without pushing owners of epi-whatever lights into defensive mode. That's something non-epi enthusiasts should try get better at. Being smuggly correct about something merely makes the circle of those people smaller than it needs to be. There's no reason this has to be a wedge issue.

I hope stylze gets 1g/w. I'm sure he'll be happy. It would be unfortunate if let this discussion prevent him from trying an Area51 and comparing the results himself.

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If the argument was always phrased "Top quality LEDs will run with higher efficiency than most mass marketed panels" I don't think there would ever be an argument. But I don't think that changing to a better light will always pay itself off so quickly, I don't think every grower will see such a clear cut benefit when switching, partially because unless you have everything else mastered your yield may be being held back much more by non-light issues (over/under feeding/watering, nute lockout, rootbound, etc.), and adding more light may not actually result in any additional yield. Partially is is also that while the cheap chinese LEDs are constantly dropping in price (if you are willing to bid on auctions instead of buy it now you can pick up a 400W Vipar for ~$100) the top notch name branded ones have remained pretty much the same price (ApacheTech AT120 is still $859). Lets say that I, a relatively new grower, were to purchase both these lights. How many grows would I have to do to make the AT120 worth the extra $759? Even if it performs at a full 120W, will it still outperform the ~200W actual draw of chinese LED? Like, will it yield more total, or will it just yield more per watt? Will the average grower be able to take advantage of the higher efficiency? Or would, for MOST people (Not the super experience growers trying to maximize all possible variables, but the average grower, one who would be choosing which light to buy as their first), the $100, 400W Vipar light probably be perfectly adequate for their use?

For the record guys, I was joking when I said grow by candlelight. I'm not even mad. I just wanted to see the Chinese LED haters reactions. Will be posting new pics in a few days. I gotta get rid of my moms so I can go into flower.

^^^More ignorance from Ace actually, but what do I and others know. We have only grown with both Chinese based budget panels and the "overpriced" stuff. It's fun to have peeps come by and tell us how fuckin' stoopid we are AZ. Maybe that's why when dick heads and know-it-alls come by and say stoopid ignorant insulting shit, some folks get mad or concerned. It's shocking that a person who knows absolute dick about LEDs can even come into this section and talk like they have a clue and they're the shit. And be disrespectful in the most cowardly and passive aggressive ways. I'll respect people's right to an opinion but until I see some knowledge and experience about LEDs, they just don't know what they're talking about. Their words are a joke to many experienced LED growers. Period. Whether they know it or not.

Light is light but how it's produced is more important with LEDs. The devil in the details and all. But little kids and their Lite Brites seem to know everything when in fact they don't even know enough to know they don't know dick. They're overpaying to grow weed and don't even know it. In actuality it is the budget panels owners who are overpaying. The LEDs used in budget panels ARE THE SAME LEDS THEY USE IN MAKING SIGNS THAT HANG IN STORE WINDOWS IN CHINA AND THAT SELL FOR CHUMP CHANGE ON EBAY. Those motherfuckers are laughing all he way to the bank. "Overpriced" panels pay for themselves in the electricity and QUALITY department which is something the budget crowd refuses to accept or acknowledge. Or to put it plainer, THEY DON"T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. Hellooooooo. Is this thing on?

PS Try to build a LED light using what companies like Hans, A51, Onyx or even Apache use. You'll find that you can't build it cheaper then what their prices are.

PPS Blah Blah Blah.

PPPS Yes the average grower will benefit from an overpriced panel because they will actually operate within proper temperature standards and spectrum to grow weed. And Ace did you know some people pay delivery/usage charges for their electricity in addition to their electrical rates? And taxes on top of those charges? So yes overpriced stuff running at 200 watts will pay for itself faster than a 400 watt Vipar (I've used them btw), and benefit the average user.

PPPPS Ace, still trying to be captain of the debate club? You little genius you .

FranJan said:

^^^More ignorance from Ace actually, but what do I and others know. We have only grown with both Chinese based budget panels and the "overpriced" stuff. It's fun to have peeps come by and tell us how fuckin' stoopid we are AZ. Maybe that's why when dick heads and know-it-alls come by and say stoopid ignorant insulting shit, some folks get mad or concerned. It's shocking that a person who knows absolute dick about LEDs can even come into this section and talk like they have a clue and they're the shit. And be disrespectful in the most cowardly and passive aggressive ways. I'll respect people's right to an opinion but until I see some knowledge and experience about LEDs, they just don't know what they're talking about. Their words are a joke to many experienced LED growers. Period. Whether they know it or not.

Light is light but how it's produced is more important with LEDs. The devil in the details and all. But little kids and their Lite Brites seem to know everything when in fact they don't even know enough to know they don't know dick. They're overpaying to grow weed and don't even know it. In actuality it is the budget panels owners who are overpaying. The LEDs used in budget panels ARE THE SAME LEDS THEY USE IN MAKING SIGNS THAT HANG IN STORE WINDOWS IN CHINA AND THAT SELL FOR CHUMP CHANGE ON EBAY. Those motherfuckers are laughing all he way to the bank. "Overpriced" panels pay for themselves in the electricity and QUALITY department which is something the budget crowd refuses to accept or acknowledge. Or to put it plainer, THEY DON"T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. Hellooooooo. Is this thing on?

PS Try to build a LED light using what companies like Hans, A51, Onyx or even Apache use. You'll find that you can't build it cheaper then what their prices are.

PPS Blah Blah Blah.

PPPS Yes the average grower will benefit from an overpriced panel because they will actually operate within proper temperature standards and spectrum to grow weed. And Ace did you know some people pay delivery/usage charges for their electricity in addition to their electrical rates? And taxes on top of those charges? So yes overpriced stuff running at 200 watts will pay for itself faster than a 400 watt Vipar (I've used them btw), and benefit the average user.

PPPPS Ace, still trying to be captain of the debate club? You little genius you .

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O dayum. FranJan just went ham!

Ace Yonder said:

But I don't think ..., I don't think

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I think that's where others get exasperated. They've grown with epis and high-efficiency diodes. They're not guessing.

Ace Yonder said:

How many grows would I have to do to make the AT120 worth the extra $759? Even if it performs at a full 120W, will it still outperform the ~200W actual draw of chinese LED?

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We should recognize you're using the most extreme example (Apache). I'm not willing to pay Apache prices when A51 is available. Maybe someone who's used both could explain why Apache is worth the cost. Perhaps its use case is for the uber efficient? (Someone who fights heat buildup?). Maybe they could explain how long it takes to pay for Apache's added expense.

But, I've already given an example using the more modestly-priced Area51. One grow will pay for the added cost (assuming your growing skills are getting you about 0.8g/w from a Chinese epi light.).

Ace Yonder said:

the $100, 400W Vipar light probably be perfectly adequate for their use?

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I've always said that. If someone's working out their skills, aren't trying to maximize the output for their real estate, not in a hot summer climate, etc., I think a Chinese epi-whatever light is a reasonable choice. As long as they know what they're getting into.

The problem seems to be as soon as someone explains what such person is getting into, it sets owners of such lights on edge. I think that's a product of investment psychology. They own that, not the messenger. (But, I agree it's good to watch how incendiary we are.).

REALSTYLES said:

I just wanted to see the Chinese LED haters reactions.

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Which makes you worse than the haters. I don't think they're trying to provoke anyone, they just firmly believe the inexpensive epi-whatever lights aren't worth the money (all factors considered). I disagree with them. I think there are legitimate cases. But, I don't think they're trolling when they express their opinion.

They might be able to present their rationale more constructively than just saying "don't buy garbage." But, I'm positive they aren't just trying to see "how the gullible will react."

Have you paused to consider how your (apparently disingenuous) defense of said lights could cause someone to buy a light that even you don't know how well it will grow?

FranJan said:

PS Try to build a LED light using what companies like Hans, A51, Onyx or even Apache use. You'll find that you can't build it cheaper then what their prices are.

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I'm gonna ignore everything else and focus on this. You think that those companies are selling products at cost? They have no profit margin? They don't care at all about making profits, or the fact that when you have a smaller consumer base you need higher profit margins, or any other stuff than anyone who runs any business would know about. If you are really that naive, I really feel like it taints everything else you say with a bit of stupidity.

Ace Yonder said:

You think that those companies are selling products at cost? They have no profit margin? They don't care at all about making profits,

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It's called economy of scale. They buy in bulk. The expense for those brands is justified by the fact that you can't build those lights for the same price. They're not rebranding an epi-whatever and charging a fortune like the "secret sauce" companies (Kind, Lush, HydroGrowLED, BlackDog, GrowBlu).

az2000 said:

I think that's where others get exasperated. They've grown with epis and high-efficiency diodes. They're not guessing.

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I understand that some people are coming from this perspective, and I put much more weight on what they say. However, most of those people who do indeed have experience in both tend to say the same thing you are saying, and are generally not one the uber-agressive side. You have to admit there are a lot of people making a lot of definitive statements that they cannot personally back up, on both sides of this debate.

This has been re-iterated continously...

Cree are made in China too.

Diodes with UNKNOWN specifications is NM, power dissapation and build materials, that means: NOT KNOWN: are also made in China. Worrisome.

Proceed at own risk.

Led carcasses littered all over this forum. Seldomly, if ever, are they of the quality panel variety, with quality KNOWN components.

What else is there? Your buying cheaper, thinking it is is a revolution. Been there, still kinda there, not progessive thinking though, imho....

Ace Yonder said:

I understand that some people are coming from this perspective, and I put much more weight on what they say. However, most of those people who do indeed have experience in both tend to say the same thing you are saying, and are generally not one the uber-agressive side. You have to admit there are a lot of people making a lot of definitive statements that they cannot personally back up, on both sides of this debate.

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An usually they have been called out accordingly....the reason for the all the "railroading". Spread disinfo, get called out.

az2000 said:

It's called economy of scale. They buy in bulk. The expense for those brands is justified by the fact that you can't build those lights for the same price. They're not rebranding an epi-whatever and charging a fortune like the "secret sauce" companies (Kind, Lush, HydroGrowLED, BlackDog, GrowBlu).

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I understand that, but look at what Supra is doing. You can clearly build quality panels for much cheaper than they are charging.

Ace Yonder said:

I understand that, but look at what Supra is doing. You can clearly build quality panels for much cheaper than they are charging.

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Its not as large a profit margin as you think, mang.....The parts alone even at wholesale are probably 50% of retail cost even, not exactly a model for maximum profit.

Plus Supra actually is using SUPERIOR components to even those quality panel builds.

Ace Yonder said:

I understand that, but look at what Supra is doing. You can clearly build quality panels for much cheaper than they are charging.

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Abiqua said:

Its not as large a profit margin as you think, mang.....The parts alone even at wholesale are probably 50% of retail cost even, not exactly a model for maximum profit.

Plus Supra actually is using SUPERIOR components to even those quality panel builds.

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not to mention the fact that if you don't have tools or supplies, you will have extra upfront cost than someone with lots of spare parts laying around.

Abiqua said:

Its not as large a profit margin as you think, mang.....The parts alone even at wholesale are probably 50% of retail cost even, not exactly a model for maximum profit.

Plus Supra actually is using SUPERIOR components to even those quality panel builds.

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That is exactly what I am saying. How can you say you can build a BETTER panel for cheaper and at the same time say you would have to spend more to build an equally good one?

i have been away for a little while
i see the thread at the top of new posts list, i have to admit i got a little excited , i thought for a second blue font was back

is there any news on blue font, is he still awol ?

az2000 said:

It's called economy of scale. They buy in bulk. The expense for those brands is justified by the fact that you can't build those lights for the same price. They're not rebranding an epi-whatever and charging a fortune like the "secret sauce" companies (Kind, Lush, HydroGrowLED, BlackDog, GrowBlu).

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Also, there was a thread where a rep or owner of Apache Tech was explaining why he wouldnt give a panel for aside by side testing, and he said it was because he's not after the grower market because they are too small a market base, he is looking for places that will be buying 100s of lights in bulk. This tells me that there isn't a large enough consumer base to allow them to order in large enough bulk to thrive on a slim profit margin. Even with economy of scale, they aren't selling at or below what our cost would be, they just aren't. They need to make money and they aren't selling enough product to have that thin of a profit margin.

FranJan said:

Blah Blah Blah. .

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I was just reading about your Hans panel that suffers from getting to hot, light leaks and hotspots https://www.rollitup.org/t/hey-hans-80-owners-are-we-getting-the-most-out-of-our-panels-or-can-we-do-better.841300/... is this light you say we should get ?...cause my MarsHydro doesn't have those problems...just sayin